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Class designs in Achaea

AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 3,073 @@ - Legendary Achaean
Hello,

As I have seen from several topics now, Achaea has been attempting to remodel itself to become generally more modernized and also more appealing to a larger playerbase. One thing I was wondering about was what Achaea has to offer to its players in mechanics, and this lead me to think about the Classes. Though Achaea has a rather established and grand world, it seems its classes are still behind the times. Take note, I do not mean the combat system is flawed or old, if anything Achaea has the best combat mechanics out of the IRE games, but what I mean is that the skill designs are outdated.


IDENTICAL KITS:


Let's take some examples here. The three "nature" classes Achaea supplies are Sentinels, Druids and Sylvans. Each of these classes shares at least two identical skills, the only thing making them unique is Woodlore for Sentinels and Elementalism for Sylvans. Now as one can assume this tends to give a vibe of "copy-cat classes" and generally lacks flavor if someone feels like trying a different role in a nature class. These classes also have generally very little role in the concept of "nature" as well as few interactions (this not including Nature gods). One could say that a player can always simply "RP their bonds to nature" but I have always found that attempting to place that concept as the foundation of a class's lore always ends to be messy and frankly if the environment does not nurture it (which Achaea generally does not), then it can never really grow.

Now let's take some other examples. We have the three Knight classes (Infernal, Paladins and Runewardens), each with an identical setup except for one differentiating skill that defines them as "Evil Knight", "Good Knight" and "Neutral Knight". Now it can be said that they require these skills (Chivalry and Forging) to express their Knightly profession and identify them as a Knight class, but I feel that there can be many other ways to simply "make a knight seem a knight", and it shouldnt be tied down to having identical skills.


SPECIAL FEATURES TO CLASSES:


Moving on from shared skills, we can bring up the concept of class roles and interactions. As I had mentioned before, it seems though the 3 nature classes have "nature skills", they dont really seem to have much a role with it. There is almost no interactions other than a grove (which in itself isnt really an interaction, but more of a storage for offensive uses). Before recent changes, we could even see Nature classes in other cities and lands, even a city hellbent on crushing nature, simply because the classes themselves can be seen more as "a set of skills that have nature gimicky abilities" rather than having any actual involvement 'in' nature.

Let me express on this further. Let's say that the forests actually needed tending by druids and that druids needed to interact with forests to gain  their skills (somewhat like their current summoning of a quarterstaff), this could in general supply a more concrete theme to them. I have also always seen that 'class specific quests' have always given a certain flare and excitement to the class, allowing players that have chosen such a profession for their characters to go into more depth with them.



Within the other IRE games, we have seen in the past reforms with their classes (most of them having come from Achaea to begin with), to give them unique skills only to their class. What this does is give an almost new package to a player selecting a new class, rather than the feel of an already used one. Lusternia for example has an almost unique kit for each of its classes, and Aetolia has been working on revamps for each of their 'Achaea-based classes' to give each a unique kit to itself. Why cannot Achaea do the same?



My final point and request is that, can we see the Classes in Achaea to become more advanced and give a much more unique feel to each alongside these modernizing changes to Achaea?

Please leave comments and upvotes if you wish for the same :).
SylvanceShirszaeSasiyaCesarina

Comments

  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Oh, I only want to comment on Sylvan Class since I am a Sylvan. If you read about the class it is meant to be a mash of two classes, Magi and Druid so in all respect if you are a Sylvan you are both plus! Sylvan Elementalism is different from Magi Elementalism. I believe they are replacing concoctions too.

    And if you try to take my grove.....
    image
    SoludraAsmodronAaric
  • KorbenKorben Member Posts: 345 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I think the devs mentioned they were working on more differences between knight classes in another thread.
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yeah, removing the shared tradeskills and replacing them with new unique skills (assuming they aren't just replaced with a new shared skill) will help a lot to further differentiate the knight/forestal classes.
    Sylvance
  • AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 3,073 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    That's true about replacing the trade skills, however that is to the far future and not a focus right now. Also I feel the knight class would have its forging skill replaced with a shared skill of warfare and tactics. However it doesnt just stop at trade skills, let me explain further with this diagram and statistics below.

    Achaea's 35 skills:

    Alchemy: Alchemist
    Apostasy: Apostate
    Chivalry: Infernal, Paladin, Runewarden
    Concoctions: Druid, Sentinel, Sylvan
    Crystalism: Mage
    Curses: Shaman
    Devotion: Paladin, Priest
    Domination: Occultist
    Elementalism: Mage, Sylvan
    Evileye: Apostate
    Forging: Infernal, Paladin, Runewarden
    Groves: Druid, Sylvan
    Harmonics: Bard
    Healing: Priest
    Hypnosis: Serpent
    Kaido: Bard
    Metamorphosis: Sentinel, Druid
    Necromancy: Apostate, Infernal
    Occultism: Occultist
    Physiology: Alchemist
    Pranks: Jester
    Puppetry/Vodun: Jester, Shaman
    Runelore: Shaman, Runewarden
    Shindo:  Blademaster
    Striking: Blademaster
    Spirituality: Priest
    Subterfuge: Serpent
    Swashbuckling: Bard
    Tarot: Jester, Occultist
    Tekura: Monk
    Telepathy: Monk
    Transmutation: Alchemist
    Two Arts: Blademaster
    Voicecraft: Bard
    Woodlore: Sentinel

    Achaea has 17 class choices and 35 class skills to it. Of these 17 classes, 12 have shared/identical skills, and only 5 are a unique design to themselves. Now of these 5, we have Blademasters and Alchemists, two only very recent additions to Achaea, This meaning Achaea has for some time been in the mind-field of "classes share skills". This isnt to say that I am upset with new additions to classes, if anything it gives the game more life, however I would much rather see the old classes revisited and updated to reflect a more unique Achaea, rather than new classes being implemented.

    I mean imagine if our nature classes had a set like this:

    Druid: Groves, Balance, Stargazing
    Sylvan: Stormfury, Wildgrowth, Concoctions
    Sentinel: Woodlore, Companions, Huntsman

    Though these were just off the top of my head, it feels as if each class is unique in its own design, but still connected with a 'nature' theme. If each class was given the unique makeup that Blademaster and Alchemist were given, we would see a much wider range of selection and boost in activity, not to mention  class definition.
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Asmodron said:

    I mean imagine if our nature classes had a set like this:

    Druid: Groves, Balance, Stargazing
    Sylvan: Stormfury, Wildgrowth, Concoctions
    Sentinel: Woodlore, Companions, Huntsman

    Though these were just off the top of my head, it feels as if each class is unique in its own design, but still connected with a 'nature' theme. If each class was given the unique makeup that Blademaster and Alchemist were given, we would see a much wider range of selection and boost in activity, not to mention  class definition.
    If I had some storm fury, wildgrowth, concoctions crap I would be pretty mad...your trying to change the Sylvan class which has a legitimate RP reason to have two shared skills into something new. A unique third skill would be great, but there is nothing with Sylvan elementalism and groves. I mean what possibly reason would a Sylvan have to drop elementalism? IC I mean, will the elements turn on nature? will the gods turn the elements on nature? Sylvans are a true blended class and with that it means if you want to be one you need to take into consideration that it was created that way and not turn it into something else just because it has one skill set with the same name as the Magi elementalism and groves that druids have as well.

    I also don't see why we need to completely change the nature classes, Druids have always had metamorphosis and nothing was ever wrong with it, and I am sure Sentinel's and Druids use them in different ways. Not that I have been either a druid or a sentinel...

    End rant is if you want some new ability for Forestals maybe you should start speculating on the concoctions replacement?
    I find the elementalism and groves completely works fine IC for Sylvans and Druids and Sentinel's...yeah yeah yeah I love you too :P

  • AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 3,073 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Achimrst said:

    Asmodron said:

    I mean imagine if our nature classes had a set like this:

    Druid: Groves, Balance, Stargazing
    Sylvan: Stormfury, Wildgrowth, Concoctions
    Sentinel: Woodlore, Companions, Huntsman

    Though these were just off the top of my head, it feels as if each class is unique in its own design, but still connected with a 'nature' theme. If each class was given the unique makeup that Blademaster and Alchemist were given, we would see a much wider range of selection and boost in activity, not to mention  class definition.
    If I had some storm fury, wildgrowth, concoctions crap I would be pretty mad...your trying to change the Sylvan class which has a legitimate RP reason to have two shared skills into something new. A unique third skill would be great, but there is nothing with Sylvan elementalism and groves. I mean what possibly reason would a Sylvan have to drop elementalism? IC I mean, will the elements turn on nature? will the gods turn the elements on nature? Sylvans are a true blended class and with that it means if you want to be one you need to take into consideration that it was created that way and not turn it into something else just because it has one skill set with the same name as the Magi elementalism and groves that druids have as well.

    I also don't see why we need to completely change the nature classes, Druids have always had metamorphosis and nothing was ever wrong with it, and I am sure Sentinel's and Druids use them in different ways. Not that I have been either a druid or a sentinel...

    End rant is if you want some new ability for Forestals maybe you should start speculating on the concoctions replacement?
    I find the elementalism and groves completely works fine IC for Sylvans and Druids and Sentinel's...yeah yeah yeah I love you too :P

    The idea that Sylvans are "a mix of druids and mage" was why the have the skills from each, however that shouldnt define their class set. For example, it could easily be said that a "Storm skill" is the definition of Nature and Elementalism into a single controlled skill. Trust me that to give a definition of "They took skills from two other classes" as why a class has no unique supplements to its skills, is really unoriginal.
  • BereneneBerenene Member Posts: 1,892 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You forgot Enchantments.
    Janeway: Tuvok! *clapclap* Release my hounds!
    Krenim: Hounds? How cliche.
    Janeway: Tuvok! *clapclap* Release my rape gorilla!
    Krenim: ...We'll show ourselves out.
    Asmodron
  • DelphinusDelphinus Member Posts: 896 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Asmodron said:
    That's true about replacing the trade skills, however that is to the far future and not a focus right now.

    And this idea of yours is ahead of their schedule?
    SenaNaisar
  • KaieKaie Member Posts: 158 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited June 2013
    I actually agree with this. I've often felt it's a bit unoriginal sharing two skills with other classes. I like tarot and puppetry both, however Puppetry and Vodun are really the same exact thing with minor cosmetic differences. Obviously those two are that one wields a doll while the other has puppets and the different name for the skill sets. I think I commented somewhere that I would love LOVE to see some kind of difference between the two that makes then distinct. As it stands it's identical and due to the different names and objects neither can teach the other in it. I'd love to see each class get at least it's own unique spin on the skill by tweaking something for each or adding in unique skills to it based on the class. Even with tarot that would be cool if each class could bring something unique to the table.
    AchimrstSultani
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Asmodron said:
    Achimrst said:

    Asmodron said:

    I mean imagine if our nature classes had a set like this:

    Druid: Groves, Balance, Stargazing
    Sylvan: Stormfury, Wildgrowth, Concoctions
    Sentinel: Woodlore, Companions, Huntsman

    Though these were just off the top of my head, it feels as if each class is unique in its own design, but still connected with a 'nature' theme. If each class was given the unique makeup that Blademaster and Alchemist were given, we would see a much wider range of selection and boost in activity, not to mention  class definition.
    If I had some storm fury, wildgrowth, concoctions crap I would be pretty mad...your trying to change the Sylvan class which has a legitimate RP reason to have two shared skills into something new. A unique third skill would be great, but there is nothing with Sylvan elementalism and groves. I mean what possibly reason would a Sylvan have to drop elementalism? IC I mean, will the elements turn on nature? will the gods turn the elements on nature? Sylvans are a true blended class and with that it means if you want to be one you need to take into consideration that it was created that way and not turn it into something else just because it has one skill set with the same name as the Magi elementalism and groves that druids have as well.

    I also don't see why we need to completely change the nature classes, Druids have always had metamorphosis and nothing was ever wrong with it, and I am sure Sentinel's and Druids use them in different ways. Not that I have been either a druid or a sentinel...

    End rant is if you want some new ability for Forestals maybe you should start speculating on the concoctions replacement?
    I find the elementalism and groves completely works fine IC for Sylvans and Druids and Sentinel's...yeah yeah yeah I love you too :P

    The idea that Sylvans are "a mix of druids and mage" was why the have the skills from each, however that shouldnt define their class set. For example, it could easily be said that a "Storm skill" is the definition of Nature and Elementalism into a single controlled skill. Trust me that to give a definition of "They took skills from two other classes" as why a class has no unique supplements to its skills, is really unoriginal.
    Viridian? I don't know a Magi with that, Heartseed, vinewreathe, barkskin, eclipse, and rainstorm. All make sylvan elementalism different then magi elementalism. They have other skills that are the same but they really are meant to be used differently for the class as a whole.
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Elementalism is a good example of a shared skill being done well. The overall theme is the same and they share most abilities, but magi elementalism and sylvan elementalism are very different skills.
    AchimrstDaeirKaieKyrra
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