Terraforming Updates - June 2013

Xith

Hestitant about the separating of tradeskills. Forging and concoctions make perfect sense to be learnable but.. venoms and enchantment not as much.

Then again the prospect of Magi getting another combat-usable skill seems exciting. As far as serpents you could move half of subterfuge into a 2nd skill, perhaps ripe with theft/infiltration improvements. Oooooh.

Trevize

Cooper said:

On a scale of one week to 'Ships Are Coming Soon(tm)' how long is 'down the road' for multiclassing?

If I remember right, ships first showed on the website in 1998?

Trevize

Learyn said:

I wouldn't consider venoms a tradeskill since we actually use venoms to bite people with in melee and the only thing there to even make it tradeskillish is milking.

It's a tradeskill. Yet something else from the serpent class we're giving away!

Trevize

Trevize said:

Cooper said:

On a scale of one week to 'Ships Are Coming Soon(tm)' how long is 'down the road' for multiclassing?

If I remember right, ships first showed on the website in 1998?

Just wanted to confirm: http://wayback.archive.org/web/19981207012900/http://www.achaea.com/game/ocean_n_ships.html

Tael

I really, really like most of this.

I'm more on the fence about multiclass. I know that I personally would like it, but I'm not sure to what degree I think it's a good idea for the game.

For one, I really really hope that there's some justification for it given in-game. It's sort of strange that you can "forget" an entire class already and it would be nice and, I imagine not too hard, to put in a lore justification for the fact that people can somehow temporarily switch their memories in and out gaining access to some skills and losing access to others (and why they couldn't do this before).

Having played Aetolia a bit, it definitely pulled me out of the game when I saw people just switching classes. And it felt like each person was less important since their role could just be played by someone else who had whatever class was needed. The lack of any lore justification so far as I could see compounded with the fact that much of the org RP was very class-related made it feel a lot more like a video game. It was especially striking in comparison to a lot of the great RP I saw in the game. Multiclass was probably my least favourite thing in Aetolia.

So the larger issue I worry about is further loss of identity. Multiclass houses were good for the game's population, but were really rough on the orgs and many are still recovering a sense of identity. Given how much org roleplay involves classes, I'm even more concerned for how people will manage individual roleplay with the ability to switch between classes. Right now class is something you can pretty firmly anchor to in defining a character - I have a vague understanding of what it means to be an Apostate and even players who aren't very interested in roleplay don't have too much difficulty establishing a decent base so as not to ruin anyone else's immersion. I don't have nearly so good an idea what it means to be a serpent knight or a magi blademaster and my fear is that, as in Aetolia, people will continue to roleplay their "primary" class and just treat the others as purely mechanical contrivances with nothing to do with their identity.

I guess my central concern is that it feels really game-y without the roleplayness that I think makes Achaea something very special.

"Concerned" is probably not the right word either - mostly I just hope that these issues are being taken into consideration so we can see this worked more smoothly into the game/roleplay than the house system was. I like the gameplay implications of it, I just really hope that the roleplay implications get plenty of attention too.

Trevize

Tael said:

I really, really like most of this.

I'm more on the fence about multiclass. I know that I personally would like it, but I'm not sure to what degree I think it's a good idea for the game.

For one, I really really hope that there's some justification for it given in-game. It's sort of strange that you can "forget" an entire class already and it would be nice and, I imagine not too hard, to put in a lore justification for the fact that people can somehow temporarily switch their memories in and out gaining access to some skills and losing access to others.

But the larger issue I worry about is further loss of identity. Multiclass houses were good for the game's population, but were really rough on the orgs and many are still recovering a sense of identity. Given how much org roleplay involves classes, I'm even more concerned for how people will manage individual roleplay with the ability to switch between classes.

I guess my central concern is that it feels really game-y without the roleplayness that I think makes Achaea something special.

"Concerned" is probably not the right word either - mostly I just hope that these issues are being taken into consideration so we can see this worked more smoothly into the game/roleplay than the house system was.

Houses do place some small limitation on this - for those Housed, at least. Houses (at least should) restrict classes based on what fits their teachings, and while I know he said the limitations may change, those limitations may help to mitigate some of the RP issues.

Tarkanian

Tecton said:

Sylvance said:

One thing I do wonder is how the Knight classes will be balanced. Knight is still my worst nightmare to fight as a BM, and that's with just two 'combat' skillsets.  I shudder to think what will happen when they're given a third, though I guess all three skillsets will have to be rebalanced.

They will be rebalanced - something I've considering for knights (and don't hold me to this, it's just an idea), would be to remove most of the melee weapon-based attacks from chivalry (DSL, RAZE, LUNGE, IMPALE, DSB etc), then make the third skill a more weapon-focused skill that may emphasise, say, blunt weapons for Infernals, and two-handed weapons for Paladins, while Runewardens would probably retain the dual sword mechanics.

feeling pretty stupid for switching back to BM now...

Eld

Tarkanian said:

Tecton said:

Sylvance said:

One thing I do wonder is how the Knight classes will be balanced. Knight is still my worst nightmare to fight as a BM, and that's with just two 'combat' skillsets.  I shudder to think what will happen when they're given a third, though I guess all three skillsets will have to be rebalanced.

They will be rebalanced - something I've considering for knights (and don't hold me to this, it's just an idea), would be to remove most of the melee weapon-based attacks from chivalry (DSL, RAZE, LUNGE, IMPALE, DSB etc), then make the third skill a more weapon-focused skill that may emphasise, say, blunt weapons for Infernals, and two-handed weapons for Paladins, while Runewardens would probably retain the dual sword mechanics.

feeling pretty stupid for switching back to BM now...

Keep in mind that's probably well in the future, still.

Tael

Trevize said:

Learyn said:

I wouldn't consider venoms a tradeskill since we actually use venoms to bite people with in melee and the only thing there to even make it tradeskillish is milking.

It's a tradeskill. Yet something else from the serpent class we're giving away!

Seems sort of unimpressive when, with multiclass, people can have the entire serpent class.

I imagine that a lot of people are going to take serpent if they can - pretty much everyone wants subterfuge (evade, snipe, phase, warp, you name it) and, given that you'll be able to have a class that's better for 1v1 alongside it, there's virtually no reason not to.

Trevize

Tael said:

Trevize said:

Learyn said:

I wouldn't consider venoms a tradeskill since we actually use venoms to bite people with in melee and the only thing there to even make it tradeskillish is milking.

It's a tradeskill. Yet something else from the serpent class we're giving away!

Seems sort of unimpressive when, with multiclass, people can have the entire serpent class.

I imagine that a lot of people are going to take serpent if they can - pretty much everyone wants subterfuge (evade, snipe, phase, warp, you name it) and, given that you'll be able to have a class that's better for 1v1 alongside it, there's virtually no reason not to.

At least take comfort in the fact... that... yeah, I can't think of anything. Sorry!

Eld

You forgot the number one stealth ability, blending in with the crowd. Serpent might have some competition for most-multiclassed, though, with the number of people who will likely switch to blademaster long enough to get a cool sword.

Sarapis

You guys are making an awful lot of assumptions considering neither you nor we know how it's going to work yet.

Jovolo

Yeah, I highly doubt multiclass is going to be like switching from Dragon to lesser, or vice versa. In a place with as low a populace as the other IRE games, something like that can work. In Achaea, it's not a very good idea. 

Something more like the MKO one would be nice. Storing aptitude in a class into a class bank and withdrawing from it when you go to certimene to switch around, and the fast learning nowadays makes this less tedious. But whatever. It's still a while down the road yet.

Sarapis

Some key design points with multiclassing that have yet to be decided on our end (or even talked about much):

* How widely available do we want this? Should this be something that is only possible post-Dragon, for instance?
* How many different classes can you eventually have?

* How do we define incompatible classes in such a way that feels fair-ish to all classes?

* Should 'primary class' have a meaning? (In other words, when you get a secondary class, is it gimped in some way, or is your primary class buffed in some way? If so, how do we do this in a 'fair' way across classes.)

* How often can you change? 

* Is there a cost (gold, time, etc) to switching?

Trevize

Sarapis said:

You guys are making an awful lot of assumptions considering neither you nor we know how it's going to work yet.

We're just speculating while waiting for an 'under construction' webpage so we can start counting down the years.

Mizik

Pensieves, yo.

@Tael, when did you become Achaea's Michael Moore.

And why do Serpents think there's a conspiracy where everyone secretly wants to become a Serpent? Don't nobody want to be Serpent.

Erikka

Tecton said:

[...]

• We're beautifying a lot of our core outputs, things like SCORE and STAT, the news and message systems, as well as changes to CONFIG and more!
  
• An overhaul of the emote system, merging emote and tmote functionality, as well as providing the ability to combine emotes with some of the common item interactions.
  
• Continued work on auditing the many questing/bashing areas, integrating hundreds more quests into the QUEST LOG system, and improving denizen interactivity and AI. As part of this, we're tweaking both experience and gold rewards to be more consistent across the entire game.
• Continuing the in-depth evaluation of all of our classes and the player-submitted CLASSLEAD reports.
• Tweaks and changes to some of our conflict systems: Icons, City Destruction, and Pickpocketing.

Things you'll see "down the road"

• Splitting off some (or all) tradeskills from class skill sets (and adding new class skills/abilities to fill in the voids).
• Expanded rewards for bashing, beyond gold and experience.
  [...]
• An overhaul of weaponry, weapon stats, and forging, making the process less tedious and allowing more control of the end product.
• New challenges for bashers and questers alike, both on land and at sea.
• Taking our class system to a new level with Multiclassing: players will be able to retain knowledge of multiple class skill sets, allowing a fluid switch between known classes without starting over at inept skill level.

Observation about the multiclassing, classleads and tradeskills changes: Should set limits to how people learn those skills, for example, Necromancers, Occultists and Alchemists should not be able to use Concoctions (that should be very silly) and Druids, Sylvans, Sentinels not able to use Transmutation, for example. Also allowing Alchemists, Occultists and/or or Necromancers to use forestal classes abilities and vice versa should not be allowed and probably other inconsistences that I can't think right now.

Sasiya

One interesting thing they did in Aetolia was to introduce a 'guild sanction' privilege for guild leaders. I am not certain whether it currently has any effects, but supposedly guilds will have some control of certain abilities available to their skillsets (refining crystals and such). Perhaps houses in Achaea could gain something similar.

Personally, I'm all for houses moving away from being defined by their skills and instead pursue an ideal as a whole. Each house should have a specific role with a goal that its members could contribute to or strive towards: saying that mages don't belong in the Sentinels because they're not able to protect nature just sounds very weird. But that's just my opinion!

Rinzai

Just feeling the need to echo most peoples comments of the excitement to see things coming down the road. I really appreciate the time taken to give us a little insight into what is going on, and the planning.

Here is to hoping for sea monster denizens that I can attack!!

Sultani

Very exciting! You seem to be addressing the wants and needs of several play style groups which I'm sure isn't easy. I hope if the multi-classing goes in it at least has defined limitations to preserve the immersion experience and depth of the classes Achaea offers. Even as an occasional switch-a-holic I've always found the path of a new class exciting and informative and jumping around them too frequently could take away from that and make it more about utility and convenience.

Blujixapug

Without knowing any details of how you might implement multiclass...

I think anyone concerned about multiclass causing individuals' and organisations' identities to suffer is right to be concerned. Because it happened last time. The previous state of multiclass Houses in this game was poor. You had a majority of Houses accepting 5-8 classes, with much overlap between Houses in each city. Many Houses were reduced to little more than "X city's scholars" or "Y city's warriors", and some even to "Z city's catch-all House, because no other House wanted bards or jesters".

I'm not saying "please don't do multiclass". It makes obvious financial sense (based on its success in Imperian and Aetolia), and I'm sure a ton of people want it and will enjoy it.

But I think you would make a lot of people more comfortable if you considered ways for people and Houses to better define or maintain their identities in the midst of multiclass.

[spoiler]- Multiclassed individuals could have a "main class".
- Things like the way certain Houses receive cosmetically unique serpents and falcons could be extended to other classes.
- More ambitiously, Houses could have a signature ability for their primary class...
- ... or a skill could be "specialised" to reflect the House's theme, eg. Earth Elementalism, Tiger-style Tekura.[/spoiler]

Azor

The primary class could be as it is now and the "secondary" class would have to be activated by completing a quest or traveling to a distant location or something. After activation, that would be your class for a certain time period (2 or 3 RL days?), or until you deactivated it. If you don't deactivate it, your knowledge fades, and you go back automatically to primary class. Then perhaps a required interval before you can repeat the process.

Don't know if that's desirable, but it's what occurred to me.

Pathers

It depends on how 'primary' and 'secondary' works also.

If I decided that my primary wasn't my primary anymore, would I have to pay more gold or credits to achieve this?

Secondary classes could be restricted from -very- strong attacks, such as a secondary class as Magi cannot use holocaust?

Another possibility for switching to one of your other classes is that it's very 'exhausting', meaning your character, even when above level 80, requires sustenance and sleep afterwards, and possibly needs to regenerate willpower and endurance.

Cooper

Tecton said:

Cooper said:

On a scale of one week to 'Ships Are Coming Soon(tm)' how long is 'down the road' for multiclassing?

Closer to the latter than the former.

But...that's like...at least 5 years then

Sarapis

Probably just poor phrasing on Tecton's part in that case.

Sasiya

I'd be really sad if they prevented us from using the full skillsets of our secondary classes. I mean, if I had to make Blademaster my primary class in order to use Brokenstar, I just couldn't justifying multiclassing into the class. It's the same with holocaust or runeblades or phase any other thing like that. Even being denied minor things, such as runebinding or raido, would be a huge turn-off.

Also, in regards to the 'roleplay' aspect of switching classes in a multiclass system: there is already no roleplaying justification for people being able to quit one class to learn another. Sometimes, game mechanics need to be just that.

Just... If the game becomes more fun to play, I'll happily not be bothered by the fact that I can switch between Runewarden and another class.

Friztic

I really like the idea of opening up the Knight classes, but I'm a bit disappointed with the idea that the different classes all get their own weapons instead of weapons being interchangeable. Seems kinda raw to give shiny new flavor to a couple of classes and leave Runewardens with the same old thing people are tired of. I'm sure it's not as bad as all that, though, just wanted to voice that concern.

Naisar

Calm yo tits, people.  Leave the pitchforks in the shed until we have specifics.

Shirszae

I honestly hope weapons will be interchangeable, and only skills will be different. Locking a class to a particular weapon will just make everyone feel same-y, and we already have that with the host of knights and bards just using rapiers.

@Naisar People are just giving their opinions. 

Achimrst

Sarapis said:

Probably just poor phrasing on Tecton's part in that case.

When I read this I thought to myself. Me: "OMG! Did he just bash Tecton!" :O

Sasiya said:

I'd be really sad if they prevented us from using the full skillsets of our secondary classes. I mean, if I had to make Blademaster my primary class in order to use Brokenstar, I just couldn't justifying multiclassing into the class. It's the same with holocaust or runeblades or phase any other thing like that. Even being denied minor things, such as runebinding or raido, would be a huge turn-off.

Also, in regards to the 'roleplay' aspect of switching classes in a multiclass system: there is already no roleplaying justification for people being able to quit one class to learn another. Sometimes, game mechanics need to be just that.

Just... If the game becomes more fun to play, I'll happily not be bothered by the fact that I can switch between Runewarden and another class.

I am not sure if I am reading this right...maybe I'm tired but I'm commenting anyway!
I feel the roleplay aspect of quitting a class and learning another is that you are choosing to embrace a new way of living. Example: A city dwelling Alchemist decides to leave the city for the forest and has to stop learning all his Alchemy class skills for one conductive to living in the wild. That is just how I have always seen it, the class is dependent on how you feel you are choosing to live. Does it always make roleplay sense? Not really, there is no reason you should completely forget past skills and abilities it's just that you have decided to live a different lifestyle. Sometimes I wish I could have kept the defense abilities of a past class! I agree that the game mechanics probably do have to be that way, which is why I am excited to see how they do Multiclass. I have the feeling it is just a lesson sink for those who have too many laying around.