level dead zone mid 80s

Secos

-I wouldn't add more areas 21-40 as you can eat through that content in less than a day.

-I see more Dragons in Moghedu than anything else.(observation)

-I wish there were more equipment slots with more actual variables that affected your character.  Some of these items drop off of mobs, or the crafting components to create.  

-Diminishing returns on certain spots for over leveled players

-More on-plane high level bashing areas.

-The PVE system could use a lot of love.  I agree with Penwize on this.

Hataru

Adding anything to 21-40 isn't going to fix that bracket at all, the kids who are going to die and get lost are still going to die and get lost and alts are still going to be able to rush through levels 1-60 in the blink of an eye.

Seeing as up until level 79 you can still get such good experience from Manara its not where the effort to fix things should be put at all.

I agree with all the sentiments about PvE, I'd love to see more PvE because I think that would give the people who want to bash but see no point in it if they're not going to be PvPing something to do more at the higher-end of levels.

@Secos imo Moghedu is worthless unless you can do the knights, some people can tank those at the upper 80s/lower 90s but a lot of people can't, so that ends in it being more dragons who can bash the whole thing out.

Secos

@Haturu

- I can take 2 knights at a time and one elite keeper at a time.  So I can do fairly well in Moghedu.  However, I haven't really number crunched the xp per hour and compared it to other places.  To me, that's really what it comes down to if you are bashing for experience in the end.  I don't really bash for gold atm as I feel that if I get big enough...eventually the gold will just come.  Also, being a horkval monk I really only need gold for potions and cures.

Hataru

@Secos you already said precisely the reason the puts you in the group who can do it: horkval monk.

Korben

@Iocun, I suggested all sorts of end-level content, not just Dragon-only areas. Cloud islands that only Wing owners can visit, for example (you could borrow a set to get there, but when they reset you fall out of the sky). Or islands that only top-level explorers can get to (since you mentioned you were an explorer). Or areas that open up after you've chained together honours quests A, B, C and D.

For a radical idea on Dragon-only areas, the Dragon could be recruited by a mysterious stranger to fight Xur and the Ko-Dan Armada have Dragony adventures in another land... and they wouldn't be able to come back until they completed X requisites.

Achaea has many more areas today than it had in the past, and relatively fewer active players. Bashing-area crowding shouldn't be a problem. It is a problem because there is a much larger fraction of the playerbase at the end-game level than there used to be, and there aren't enough areas for that bracket. New areas don't have to give great gold; if they're somewhat comparable to what dragons are bashing now, people will still go there to get away from the competition.

Naisar

Korben said:

@Iocun, I suggested all sorts of end-level content, not just Dragon-only areas. Cloud islands that only Wing owners can visit, for example (you could borrow a set to get there, but when they reset you fall out of the sky). Or islands that only top-level explorers can get to (since you mentioned you were an explorer). Or areas that open up after you've chained together honours quests A, B, C and D.

For a radical idea on Dragon-only areas, the Dragon could be recruited by a mysterious stranger to fight Xur and the Ko-Dan Armada have Dragony adventures in another land... and they wouldn't be able to come back until they completed X requisites.

1) Good lord no

2) Not awful

3) Ehhhhhhhh.  Easy to do badly and a lot harder to do well.

4) Nope

Trevize

I haven't read every post, but regarding the OP: I didn't have any trouble from 80-90. Don't overlook the 'weaker' areas. Manara, Forestwatch, and others around that difficulty can net a quick 2-3%, which adds up faster than you might think. Unless you're dying over once an hour, even hunting those weaker areas, I can't see it being difficult to get past.

Cooper

Achaea hasn't grown in active population in years, yet they have added TONS of bashing areas and improved/expanded current ones.

There are plenty of bashing areas to bash in now and they are all decent experience.

People just haven't been exploring the newer or improved areas as much as they should, and skip areas they think aren't the maximum experience per minute for them. Well, that's your fault not the games.

When I was active, there was never a time when all the areas I liked to bash were empty (those areas being: Annwyn, UW, Moghedu, lower Azdun crypt/graveyard, Dun Valley, underground of New Thera, Quisalis cavern, Thera) and I didn't even bash Qurnok, or Quartz Peak.

Not every area is going to be full all the time, and sometimes a lot of areas are going to be bashed out or have people in them, but that is part of the game.

If they add so many areas where everyone can bash 100% of the time without having to slow down or compete for areas, well, I don't think that is the way Achaea should go

Naisar

Regardless of what you believe the availability of bashing areas is, Achaea has no solid way of removing characters from the pool once they achieve Dragon.  There's merely the removal of a big incentive, which doesn't have as large of an effect as you'd think because of the massively increased bashing power a Dragon has compared to lesserform.  Considering how much of the populace is reaching Dragon, I think it's worth investigating a real solution instead of quibbling about how severe the symptoms are.

Trevize

Naisar said:

Regardless of what you believe the availability of bashing areas is, Achaea has no solid way of removing characters from the pool once they achieve Dragon.  There's merely the removal of a big incentive, which doesn't have as large of an effect as you'd think because of the massively increased bashing power a Dragon has compared to lesserform.  Considering how much of the populace is reaching Dragon, I think it's worth investigating a real solution instead of quibbling about how severe the symptoms are.

Theory aside, I'm not having any trouble bashing and I'm currently at 90. I am inclined to agree with Cooper - people limit themselves more than the system limits them, when it comes to bashing.

Xer

Bashing areas for Xer - Whenever no Targossians are online : D (Though I have to sleep less Oh well lol)

More seriously, I'm pretty fine with bashing areas at level 88. Arcadia was great, and there were ok alternatives while getting there. While I wouldn't -mind- getting more places, I think the ease in which you can get to them is a large factor. A lot of people don't go far north because they want to be able to get back to their home city quickly, so places that are quickly accessible are desirable, while the "good exp but far away" places, -much- less so.

Nim

I hate going up north because, even though dashing lets me get across the continent super quickly outside the wilderness, it's completely useless in the wilderness. Seriously, the wilderness is just weird like that.

Also, @Cooper is exactly right, most people limit their bashing more than the system itself does. I don't think this is a bad thing. Actually, the prevalence of people not limiting their bashing boggles my mind. Mhaldorians at least have an excuse, but seeing Cyrenians or Shallamese/Targossians going around murdering innocent villagers for textp and money is just, like... what?

For a long time, I just tried to ignore it as another one of those breaches in reality (kind of like how you would probably never bring it up again ICly if someone named GokuSephirothz joined the city once the issue goes away), but then I realized that's a really dumb stance to take, and Achaea would probably be improved as a roleplaying game if characters took that stuff more seriously. >_>

Disclaimer: I'm not saying roleplaying a homicidal maniac is somehow inherently wrong and you should stop doing it. I'm saying ignoring the fact that you're clearly a homicidal maniac and a danger to civilization and society at large is wrong.

Berenene

Yeah, there really shouldn't be any kind of excuse for hunting something that doesn't really make any IG RP sense for your org to hunt.

Katzchen

I see Cyrenians slaughtering Istarion denizens all the time... seems a bit of a stretch. Not sure what the official 'innocent' list consists of, but you'd think most would go beyond that to stick to RP. Killing denizens who aren't harming anyone, and just living their lives peacefully seems pretty odd for a city who seems to stand for doing the same.

Nim

@Daeir: To be fair, they were Shallamese at the time, and they were talking about hunting in Moghedu, which was completely OK as far as the church was concerned.

I do think I did have her be a bit appalled by the fact, but I kept it sort of distant and relatively meaningless, and that's the part I regret.

ETA: @Katzchen is basically describing another situation I'm talking about. It's not completely out of character, as Cyrene also has a history of respecting its citizens' individualism (even if that happens to include getting involved with conflicts or wars unrelated to Cyrene), but that's no reason for there not to be controversy. After all, controversy is fun!

Katzchen

Controversy is fine, as long as it's RPed well. While I don't -know- for sure, I doubt most of those those 'good' types out there killing mostly innocent denizens have much more of a reason than 'it's good exp/gold'.

While it's much easier for a Mhaldorian/Ashtani/Hashani to find a reason to slaughter denizens, I would prefer to see people still actually finding a reason and RPing it out - my character enjoys slaughter, especially blood, and it's second nature to me to play that out when hunting with someone she is comfortable letting her guard down around, or even alone sometimes :P. She wasn't this way until she started growing darker, and went Infernal at age 20. Used to stick to hunting more 'dodgy/deserving' types of denizens when she was 18/19 Hashani bard - imps, pygmies, gnolls, cultists, pirates, undead, bandits. Since she went Infernal, and moved to Mhaldor though, she has gone from that slowly all the way up to gleefully slaughtering children.

Nim

Nim has a hard time even justifying hunting goblins or skeletons in the underworld (given that the latter are the only non-hostile denizen there that she's seen!)... and that is where my 80s hunting woes begin.

Heck, she probably wouldn't even hunt mountain bears if I didn't OOCly think the idea of training in the mountains and fighting bears was awesome and completely appropriate for an monastic swordsmaiden.

Requesting more morally approvable monsters to hunt, complete with definite undeniable proof that they're complete monsters with no regard or empathy for other life and a predisposition towards cruelty and sadism. Like, you know, gnolls. <_<

Eld

Nim said:

Requesting more morally approvable monsters to hunt, complete with definite undeniable proof that they're complete monsters with no regard or empathy for other life and a predisposition towards cruelty and sadism. Like, you know, gnolls. <_<

There's always Mhaldorians!

Nim

Eld said:

Nim said:

Requesting more morally approvable monsters to hunt, complete with definite undeniable proof that they're complete monsters with no regard or empathy for other life and a predisposition towards cruelty and sadism. Like, you know, gnolls. <_<

There's always Mhaldorians!

They're overbashed as it is though

Katzchen

Nim said:

Eld said:

Nim said:

Requesting more morally approvable monsters to hunt, complete with definite undeniable proof that they're complete monsters with no regard or empathy for other life and a predisposition towards cruelty and sadism. Like, you know, gnolls. <_<

There's always Mhaldorians!

They're overbashed as it is though

We really are.

Synbios

I'm more annoyed that there's little to no way in which you can rescue some denizens that are held captive by 'evil villages'. Case in point: the slaves in Manara, and the the receptionist, nurses and doctors of Creville. Seriously, you see a nurse try to cut her ropes with a broken glass, and for some reason, I can't even use my ubersharp blade of magical destiny to do the job? I can pull the cloth gag from the receptionist, but not pull apart the ropes binding her to the chair? Etc, etc.

Vansittart

Blujixapug said:

Naisar said:

3) Choosing one of the three paths seems unnecessary other than to curb negative effects from excessive population in the Dominion and Erudition paths.  Considering that the main point of this is to give Dragons something to do, is there any reason not to allow everyone to do all of them?

The idea was to create systems to appeal to the different types of MUD players: explorers, socialisers, killers, and achievers (socialisers and achievers got smooshed together for Conquest). I figured people would only want to go with one of the three. Maybe that is wrong though.

Dominion would work best as an opt-in system because then everyone who's part of it is free to cut loose on each other, without worrying about being issued or whatever.

For the other two, I just think there's a charm in making exclusive choices. The choice to be a Smaug, a Falcor, or a Dunkelzahn. If you can do both, then it does not shape your character to do either.

I hate the idea of adding "end-game content" like this.  It indicates that the game "wants" you to be "end-game" - i.e. dragon, in the same way that WoW wants you be doing high end instances/raids (which it does).  But, the reason WoW should direct people to their end-game content is because it rocks.  It's the most beautiful, interesting, central and playable part of their whole product.  Now, dudes.  Whatever else bashing is, it isn't that.  Achaean bashing is dull - let's not beat around the bush and pretend otherwise.  It appeals to, um, a very particular kind of character.  I think most of those people would be happy counting the floor tiles for xp, I really do.  I get that it can be therapeutic, or relaxing or whatever, but I don't think Achaean PvE (outside of things that are also very RP driven) is ever going to be .. genuinely engrossing.  Or at least, more engrossing than your average free iphone app.

Sure, add bashing areas or tweak bashing areas so that level progression is more sensible, but coding fun end-game stuff for dragon?  Screw that.  Code stuff that builds on the things that Achaea's good at.  (RP, fluidity, player-driven conflict).  Achaea should never, ever make the mistake of thinking it's a mini-WoW.  That it should be focusing on making its PvE fun or doing "achievements" or anything like that, because if you fight that war, you lose.  Graphics > text always and forever on that front.

Which is not to say that your lairs idea isn't very lovely, and beautiful because it is.  Conceptually though, I do throw up all over it. 

Kalvon

I'd be interested to see the percentage of time spent on Achaea by average players associated with "RP, fluidity, player-driven conflict" extending beyond lolpk, and the time spent doing mindless bashing.

Sylvance

The fact that you're using these taxonomies is more WoWlike than the poorly-titled call for 'end-game', because Achaea's reward structure is entirely different. It's been said many times on these forums that the PvP/PvE/RP boundaries are flimsy at best, and that's certainly been my experience. Also, and I'm sorry to be so blunt, your blanket statement about the type of people who like 'PvE' in Achaea is at least as retarded as any of the stereotypes that anyone could make about the sort of person that likes to kill other e-people with his binary lolsword.

Naisar

@Vanisttart I liked your post because I forget occasionally how much I hate bashing, but I disagree with much of the rest.

Korben

No no, the man has a point. Achaean bashing -is- dull.

But, and I've been saying it since the first forums opened, Achaean bashing doesn't have to be dull. PvE skills could mesh together better, mobs could be more amenable to group tactics, bashing areas could be designed as a challenge for a group.

"But Korben, bashing is dull on purpose so people will RP and fight more." - Perhaps so, but we aren't newbies any more. We know what we like, we know what we want from the game. So give the four kinds of player (fighters/explorers/achievers/socializers) stuff for them to do, at their level of prowess, in each of their four bailiwicks.

Delphinus

Vansittart said:

I hate the idea of adding "end-game content" like this.  It indicates that the game "wants" you to be "end-game" - i.e. dragon, in the same way that WoW wants you be doing high end instances/raids (which it does).

Agreed. There is no real "end game" in Achaea, because Achaea has no end. The focus isn't on linear progression. Ten years beyond WoW, glutted as we are on graphical F2P's, I am glad that Achaea's managed to find a niche -- let alone one that directly supports its longevity.

I do support the idea of more engrossing PvE, mind you -- but as an enrichment of the broader game-world, not as a direct competitor to your average Korean shovelware.

Blujixapug

Vansittart said:

Blujixapug said some stuff about dragons

I hate the idea of adding "end-game content" like this.

It isn't end-game content though. It's a set of activities for dragons. It would not be the main activity of the game that everyone else is working towards being able to participate in. It would be no more 'important' than other activities like raiding cities, House politics, city politics, etc.

I agree that bashing is unnecessarily boring, and is a tedious PVE activity in a game thats strength is player interaction.

I do think Achaea suffers from a serious lack of meaningful org-based competitive activities that aren't CTFs, but that is a subject for another thread.

Korben

Say what you will about Korean games, there's three areas at which they excel:

 - Spreading out the learning of the game mechanics over the course of your progression. You don't get overloaded at the start and there's always some new mechanic to learn after you've figured out the last one.

 - Giving you incentives to participate in every activity.

 - Giving you stuff to do at every point in your progression.

Achaea could use improvement in all three.

On another point, RP and player-driven conflict (not sure what was meant by 'fluidity') don't primarily require coding. They require player-player interaction and player-staff interaction, with the coding coming in only as necessary for events. PvE development, on the other hand, is almost 100% coding. One does not interfere with the other, they take up different resources.

Vansittart

Blujixapug said:

Vansittart said:

Blujixapug said some stuff about dragons

I hate the idea of adding "end-game content" like this.

It isn't end-game content though. It's a set of activities for dragons. It would not be the main activity of the game that everyone else is working towards being able to participate in. It would be no more 'important' than other activities like raiding cities, House politics, city politics, etc.

I agree that bashing is unnecessarily boring, and is a tedious PVE activity in a game thats strength is player interaction.

I do think Achaea suffers from a serious lack of meaningful org-based competitive activities that aren't CTFs, but that is a subject for another thread.

Right, "end game content" in this thread is really just a convenient shorthand for "stuff that you can only do as dragon".  And I agree it would be "no more important" than the other things you list, but the thing about those other things you list is that everyone can do them right off, and they are all things where Achaea > graphics games.  I want coder/player attention focused on politics/raiding/RP, not so much on bashing.

I totes agree that Achaea needs more meaningful org-based competitive activities, and I worry that focusing on a whole new dragon thing is only going to take attention away from those things. 

@Korben: "On another point, RP and player-driven conflict (not sure what was meant by 'fluidity') don't primarily require coding. They require player-player interaction and player-staff interaction, with the coding coming in only as necessary for events."

Well, see, I really disagree with this. The division between coding and "staff interaction" is not as bright as you think in a game run by volunteers.  Also, I think we have been conditioned to think that RP is somehow entirely on our shoulders, when it isn't.  Think of the Bathmat event.  There was a *lot* of stuff in there that needed coder time.  I have no doubt it was a massive pain in the ass to run, requiring a whole heap of behind the scenes shenanigans.  It takes planning, time, attention from the boss, to the RP volunteers, to the coding volunteers to the paid staff.  And that was part of what made it awesome - the sense of scale, the fact that things happened that aren't part of the run of the mill (but also awesome) divine interaction.

A big project like completely reworking dragony stuff means less Bathmat scale RP.  It means less coded stuff appearing as part of improvised RP.  Less time for coders to just go with the flow.  Less epic scale events.  I say again: screw that.  I want the zeroes and ones guys working on RP and events all the time.  If you're going to make a success of something, you need to focus on what you're good at, and I honestly don't think PvE is ever going to be good enough in a text game.  And I don't want people to waste their time to see if they can make it so (Number One).