Longer time to get a Mentor

Sylvance

Just want to put this out there:

I'll bet Obi Wan wishes he could renounce Darth Vadar, but he can't. That will forever be in his SCORE box, and that's awesome for us as an audience.  What I'm saying is that I think that there should be, somewhere, a record of who you've Mentored and who you've Been Mentored By. Would be awesome to have a bureaucrat in Delos who will give you this information for a price.

ENQUIRE MENTORED BY ELD

Bob takes your gold and pulls a dusty tome down from the groaning shelves behind him. "Hmm, it seems that Eld has mentored Tom, Dick and Harry."

ENQUIRE MENTOR OF ELD

Bob takes your gold and pulls a dusty tome down from the groaning shelves behind him. "Hmm, it seems that Eld has received mentorship from Jonners and Oceana."

Then, of course, there's the mandatory SoW item that allows you to burn the records of who you've mentored/been mentored by

Kyrra

Sylvance said:

Just want to put this out there:

I'll bet Obi Wan wishes he could renounce Darth Vadar, but he can't. That will forever be in his SCORE box, and that's awesome for us as an audience.  What I'm saying is that I think that there should be, somewhere, a record of who you've Mentored and who you've Been Mentored By. Would be awesome to have a bureaucrat in Delos who will give you this information for a price.

ENQUIRE MENTORED BY ELD

Bob takes your gold and pulls a dusty tome down from the groaning shelves behind him. "Hmm, it seems that Eld has mentored Tom, Dick and Harry."

ENQUIRE MENTOR OF ELD

Bob takes your gold and pulls a dusty tome down from the groaning shelves behind him. "Hmm, it seems that Eld has received mentorship from Jonners and Oceana."

Then, of course, there's the mandatory SoW item that allows you to burn the records of who you've mentored/been mentored by

That would be admittedly a nifty thing. Not really that purposeful but nifty.

Mako

haha

Jules

I've been thinking about mentors a lot lately too.  I'd like to see the mentor system used to funnel credits towards longstanding House members who are of lower might, but obviously productive and competent.  At a certain cutoff, people of high might (like me) should perhaps be excluded completely from being formal mentors, or perhaps allow people like us to be a mentor that doesn't "count" for the credit producing slot.  

Mannimar

Sylvance said:

Just want to put this out there:

I'll bet Obi Wan wishes he could renounce Darth Vadar, but he can't. That will forever be in his SCORE box, and that's awesome for us as an audience.  What I'm saying is that I think that there should be, somewhere, a record of who you've Mentored and who you've Been Mentored By. Would be awesome to have a bureaucrat in Delos who will give you this information for a price.

ENQUIRE MENTORED BY ELD

Bob takes your gold and pulls a dusty tome down from the groaning shelves behind him. "Hmm, it seems that Eld has mentored Tom, Dick and Harry."

ENQUIRE MENTOR OF ELD

Bob takes your gold and pulls a dusty tome down from the groaning shelves behind him. "Hmm, it seems that Eld has received mentorship from Jonners and Oceana."

Then, of course, there's the mandatory SoW item that allows you to burn the records of who you've mentored/been mentored by

I don't think who mentored you should be publicly available. and I'm not a fan of the idea of listing who you are mentoring. It will give the wrong impression to those inquiring about you mentoring them.

If I have 20 proteges, but in my opinion only 5 are active then I may be willing to take on another. So I think for the first one, just a number would be appropriate

Sylvance

Mannimar said:

Sylvance said:

Just want to put this out there:

I'll bet Obi Wan wishes he could renounce Darth Vadar, but he can't. That will forever be in his SCORE box, and that's awesome for us as an audience.  What I'm saying is that I think that there should be, somewhere, a record of who you've Mentored and who you've Been Mentored By. Would be awesome to have a bureaucrat in Delos who will give you this information for a price.

ENQUIRE MENTORED BY ELD

Bob takes your gold and pulls a dusty tome down from the groaning shelves behind him. "Hmm, it seems that Eld has mentored Tom, Dick and Harry."

ENQUIRE MENTOR OF ELD

Bob takes your gold and pulls a dusty tome down from the groaning shelves behind him. "Hmm, it seems that Eld has received mentorship from Jonners and Oceana."

Then, of course, there's the mandatory SoW item that allows you to burn the records of who you've mentored/been mentored by

I don't think who mentored you should be publicly available. and I'm not a fan of the idea of listing who you are mentoring. It will give the wrong impression to those inquiring about you mentoring them.

If I have 20 proteges, but in my opinion only 5 are active then I may be willing to take on another. So I think for the first one, just a number would be appropriate

Well, I disagree with you on 'it shouldn't be publicly available', but I guess that's down to opinion. I very much do take your point about what constitutes an active mentorship - this is why I worded Bob's responses quite carefully. These are people that you HAVE mentored at some point. It serves a purpose in some circumstances, but not in others. As Kyrra said, this is purely about flavor, and I sure as heck am not asking for it in any discernible timescale.

Jules

I want to hear more from the people who disagree with my stance above

Eld

Jules said:

I've been thinking about mentors a lot lately too.  I'd like to see the mentor system used to funnel credits towards longstanding House members who are of lower might, but obviously productive and competent.  At a certain cutoff, people of high might (like me) should perhaps be excluded completely from being formal mentors, or perhaps allow people like us to be a mentor that doesn't "count" for the credit producing slot.  

As I understand it, the credit bonus from protege purposes is there as an incentive for people to mentor and to put enough effort into it to get their proteges to want to stick around long enough to potentially buy credits. If you want those bonus credits to go to longstanding House members of lower might (what constitutes "lower", by the way?), structure your House so that productive, competent people who may not have huge numbers of sunk lessons can be mentors. I don't see excluding the rest of us from mentoring being particularly helpful in that regard. Preventing high-might people from being official mentors at all will also exclude many of the higher level people with whom the bashing experience bonus will be most beneficial.

Jules

"Lower" would for certain not include someone who has transed all class skills, and pretty much all other non-trade skills.  The appropriate cut-off below that?  I'm not deadset on a certain level, but the idea would be to remove the incentive for people who are already high-might (and maybe also artied out) to continue soaking up those credits.  It's actually somewhat, but not completely analogous to Sarapis' recent promotion.   

EDIT:  well, not so much the incentive, as the actual possibility, heh.  

Tesha

Mentoring is not about the bonuses for the mentor, it is about the bonuses for the newbie (not being utterly confused and feeling helpless) and for the game (having another newbie). The bonuses for the mentor are largely irrelevant, and if you are mentoring just for the bonus credits, you probably should not be a mentor.

Jules

Exactly, Tesha, which is why I'd like to see it as a tool to help retain and strengthen players who can't procure so many credits.  

Yae

Your argument feels like you're trying to tell the people, who are "high-might", to stop mentoring newcomers in an attempt to benefit "low-might" more because they could use the credits.

As I see it, novices will go to whoever helps them out the most. They chose the mentors themselves, not the other way around. So I don't really see it benefiting the "low-might" mentors unless they feel getting a bonus "high-might" mentors don't get will make them try harder in helping novices.

(That said, most novices will tentatively purchase a few credits in the beginning stages, and the larger ones (if they do) come after. Mentors only benefit from the first four. If anyone was looking for a way to profit here, it's not really from here. As my mentor said, because I like the way she said it, it's only a small thank-you for helping!)

Jules

My big purchases were a bit later, and I think you're spot on with that being how it goes.  The novices would still be able to go to high-might people, and would actually be allowed to have a total of two mentors, rather than just one.  If it's a pretty small amount, I can't imagine that it would be a big deal to have the system favor the sort of player I have in mind.  A good example would be an active, capable member of my house who is less than 50% of my might.

Katzchen

As someone who's taken on many proteges, and given them absolutely tons of my time, and only received 37 credits, 35 of those being from the same person, and those who I know who take mentoring very seriously and look after proteges find the same, I really don't see what the issue is. 'All these credits being soaked up' seems rather an exaggeration when there aren't many involved at all. I don't treat official proteges any different from non official, unless they're highly established characters who just need a mentor in name for house requirements.

It's the first three actually, the scroll is wrong. And if they buy iron elite, that's a measly 5 bonus credits, which only leaves two real purchases. I always recommend my proteges get iron elite first, because it's the best value.

I think this sounds all very complicated and unnecessary. The credit bonus is tiny unless you get very lucky, and absolutely not worth it if you're spending that time for the purpose of gaining credits. Anyone who tried to would quickly figure this out. Even guiding would pay better. I hunt for gold or credits, I mentor to help others out.

Yae

I don't see why the system has to favor one or the other.

Both types of mentors should be working hard for the novice in either case. Rewarding the one of lower-might is irrelevant to the mentorship system as it's not as though the higher-might mentor stops working hard just because the thank-you credits have become just a drop in the bucket.

Jules

Protests here awfully loud at the remote possibility of a bit of social engineering of something that's "no big deal".

Yae

You asked for why they disagreed? :-/

In any case, I think it's fair enough that both mentors work hard for it. The mentor system is for the novice, not for either of the two to profit. So, I just don't see any reason why it should be different for one or the other, depending of how much time/money they've put into Achaea. I wouldn't really care if they took away the credit benefit altogether, so long as it were equal (but I suppose a few might disagree at that point).

If you wanted something for someone of lower-might to benefit, I don't think it should be from the mentor program unless the lower-might can do something for the novice the higher-might can't.

Sena

@Jules: If you're low might and need more credits/lessons, being a mentor is likely going to actively hinder your progress, even if you do get proteges that buy credits (unless they're alts or very self-sufficient and don't need much mentoring). There's no reason to encourage low-might mentors or discourage artied omnitrans mentors, or encourage having one of each, as Katzchen said it's just complicated and unnecessary.

Your suggestion focuses too much on the credit rewards for mentoring, which shouldn't really be a concern at all. The protege having the right mentor is far more important than the credits going to the right people.

Katzchen

Jules said:

Protests here awfully loud at the remote possibility of a bit of social engineering of something that's "no big deal".

We're saying that the change has no real benefits. Not that it's not a big deal. Removing more experienced players (who generally have more lessons) as mentors is a terrible idea, and would probably have far reaching consequences.

If established players who don't have many lessons want a reliable stream of income from mentoring, and don't want to hunt, quest, or sell things for them, they can apply to become a guide. That's far more likely to net them some credits.

Jules

Katzchen said:

Jules said:

Protests here awfully loud at the remote possibility of a bit of social engineering of something that's "no big deal".

We're saying that the change has no real benefits. Not that it's not a big deal. Removing more experienced players (who generally have more lessons) as mentors is a terrible idea, and would probably have far reaching consequences.

If established players who don't have many lessons want a reliable stream of income from mentoring, and don't want to hunt, quest, or sell things for them, they can apply to become a guide. That's far more likely to net them some credits.

Easy there, I never suggested removing them as mentors, but instead suggested allowing a player to have up to two mentors, one of which would be essentially the "RP" type mentor that Sarapis mentioned (no credits) and one that would bear credits.  

EDIT:  That said, in my initial I do rather cavalierly say that us high might folks might be banned from formal mentorship altogether, then I offhandedly suggest that we could be of the "RP" type.  I'm definitely not trying to exclude high might people from the activity of mentoring though.  

Yae said:

You asked for why they disagreed? :-/

Well, I asked because of the rather healthy pile of disagrees and WTFs to the initial suggestion - that was a very strong reaction right off the bat, and to me, points to rather strong feelings about the initial suggestion itself.

EDIT:  I actually never had a formal mentor, and would have been happy to have had any one of several people who actually did mentor me benefit from my early purchases.  I didn't actually know about the program unfortunately.  I'd never want people to feel pushed, but think that now the "tasks" makes sure people are aware of the program and its implications, and that's a good thing. 

Eld

Jules said:

Katzchen said:

Jules said:

Protests here awfully loud at the remote possibility of a bit of social engineering of something that's "no big deal".

We're saying that the change has no real benefits. Not that it's not a big deal. Removing more experienced players (who generally have more lessons) as mentors is a terrible idea, and would probably have far reaching consequences.

If established players who don't have many lessons want a reliable stream of income from mentoring, and don't want to hunt, quest, or sell things for them, they can apply to become a guide. That's far more likely to net them some credits.

Easy there, I never suggested removing them as mentors, but instead suggested allowing a player to have up to two mentors, one of which would be essentially the "RP" type mentor that Sarapis mentioned (no credits) and one that would bear credits.  

Yae said:

You asked for why they disagreed? :-/

Well, I asked because of the rather healthy pile of disagrees and WTFs to the initial suggestion - that was a very strong reaction right off the bat, and to me, points to rather strong feelings about the initial suggestion itself.

EDIT:  I actually never had a formal mentor, and would have been happy to have had any one of several people who actually did mentor me benefit from my early purchases.  I didn't actually know about the program unfortunately.  I'd never want people to feel pushed, but think that now the "tasks" makes sure people are aware of the program and its implications, and that's a good thing. 

You did suggest removing higher-might people as mentors.

Jules said:

I've been thinking about mentors a lot lately too.  I'd like to see the mentor system used to funnel credits towards longstanding House members who are of lower might, but obviously productive and competent.  At a certain cutoff, people of high might (like me) should perhaps be excluded completely from being formal mentors, or perhaps allow people like us to be a mentor that doesn't "count" for the credit producing slot.  

That may not really have been what you wanted, but it probably contributed to the disagreement.

Ultimately, though, I think what people are pointing to is that the credit bonus is small enough that it makes very little difference to mentors of ANY might. No one is going to be mentoring for the credits, because the credits they get in a couple RL months (or years) of mentoring could be earned in a couple hours of bashing or questing (even for the low-might, non-dragon ones). It would be kind of like asking your novices to wait to learn their lessons from a housemate who's not tritrans yet, so that the teacher can get the bonus lesson for teaching - just not a significant enough reward to warrant the extra effort.

Jules

Yeah, Eld.  I think you're right.  I was too cavalier in the way I stated it... Really though?  The rewards are usually so meager?  In my case, by the third purchase, I was definitely getting serious, but I guess only admin would really know, and people who have a LOT of proteges would have some sort of feeling/guess.  

Eld

Jules said:

Yeah, Eld.  I think you're right.  I was too cavalier in the way I stated it... Really though?  The rewards are usually so meager?  In my case, by the third purchase, I was definitely getting serious, but I guess only admin would really know, and people who have a LOT of proteges would have some sort of feeling/guess.  

I dunno. I don't have exact numbers but I think I've averaged maybe 5-10 credits per RL year since I've been an eligible mentor, but that may have more to do with me being a terrible mentor who doesn't convince his proteges to stick around.

Kyrra

As I never had a mentor ever, I don't care so much for the formalties and it's pretty disgraceful to discourage people wanting to help out so others can benefit from a meagre reward.

If I am the only runelorist in my city during my nights and a novice wants to learn from me, should I tell them no because I am fully transed and have no use for bonus lessons? No, I help them out regardless.

Personally I will go to whoever I think can help me understand things. I learned more about the mechanics of Runewarden combat in the 20 minutes of talking to Mizik than I ever did from anyone else, including time spent in orgs with "formal training". I'm pretty grateful that he was willing to spare the time, and I guess his only reward was that his time wasn't wasted.

Maybe you should talk to your HL @Jules about having credit sales reflected to reward mentors. Personally don't see how it's any different to the bonus of bounty credits in some cities. If certain people don't want to do anything else other than work with novices ( I actually enjoyed being a Keeper myself ), let them be eligible for perks in their own organisations.

I just don't think telling people they can't go to this person or that person to learn because someone else wants to benefit is a positive thing to do. Especially with something like mentoring. A mentor is someone that you look up to, learn from, and aspire to be like. Naturally most new people are going to looking toward high ranking, high might people because it's a sign of being successful. These are people that have worked and been rewarded, they can teach me to succeed too.

Jules

I was mentored in much the same way, never having a formal mentor.  Many of those players had no need for credits they hadn't purchased with their own RL dollars, but a few were anywhere from about 25%-70% of my might (usually 25%-50%).  Some of those lower might players were "high-ranking", some not.  I was hoping that a fair few players buy a lot of credits in at least one of those initial purchases, as I'd done, and that those kind of purchases could be leveraged to boost just that sort of player.  

Eld

Jules said:

I was mentored in much the same way, never having a formal mentor.  Many of those players had no need for credits they hadn't purchased with their own RL dollars, but a few were anywhere from about 25%-70% of my might (usually 25%-50%).  Some of those lower might players were "high-ranking", some not.  I was hoping that a fair few players buy a lot of credits in at least one of those initial purchases, as I'd done, and that those kind of purchases could be leveraged to boost just that sort of player.  

Some may well be, but I think it's rare enough that the sort of change you're talking about isn't going to do much in that direction. The house bonus from member purchases being channeled into house credit sales is probably a much more efficient channel.

Jules

Yeah, that came up in another thread.  I'd definitely like to see more of the credits that organizations get by virtue of player purchases funneled towards that particular kind of player.  I consider those players valuable, even the ones who aren't "snowflakes", and want to retain them.  Of course we need the snowflakes too... and they generally fare well.  Either way, these players might be younger people who really don't make their own money yet, but will someday, and keep the game healthy, or young adults still getting their financial footing.  These players tend to be active in the game economy, providing goods and services in a way that feels much more real than credit whores offering their services free of charge (and unfortunately, completely undercutting the prices for those that do need to participate in that economy).  But at least those people do provide services.  Most of us don't actively offer them at all, because we don't have the same kind of incentive to.