Stripping Defenses

Nosrac

If someone flays away a defense, outside of the arena or a given combat situation, I could

understand being arguably upset, although this is usually easily remedied and is not really

a big deal unless you are being attacked or are just...that type of person...*shakes head*

 

--- I am understanding in the negative implications of this action against another adventurer 

    in general because someone having a defense like maybe rebounding could in no way  

    negatively effect someone else.

 

Now onto the subject of discussion, if someone is hiding or in someway avoiding being detected,

is it necessarily a crime to search for or expose them? As an understanding and generally nonchalant 

Achaean I have no problem with this because someone COULD POSSIBLY be waiting to deliver a

friendly backstab or some other nasty form of unwanted contact. Also if someone searches/dispels

someone else it is a fairly easy process to return to the former state of detectability or lack thereof.

 

Hopefully the picture I painted is clear enough to warrant some reasonable responses to this situation.

Again, I see no harm in this specific aforementioned action and think that only people who are bored or

have larger than life egos would make an issue out of this, and that technically it should be ACCEPTABLE

to do this in realms and should not be punishable.

 

As always I appreciate any   intellectual    feedback on this specific situation and await any dignified responses.

Thanks 

Shirszae

Talk it out IC. No, really. In principle, I agree with you. However, it very much depends on the situation. You have to take in mind that if you perform a search in x situation, you might be spoiling y's plan regarding whatever reason they were hidden in the first place. It is not out of the realm of logic for y to be pissed at you.

Blujixapug

IMO sometimes it's called for to reveal someone from stealth, whether you're having a meeting in a semi-public area, or you're both bashing in the same area - separately - and they're shrouded or hidden. But doing so is also somewhat provocative, which, alongside serpents being generally no-good ruffians, means you could end up stabbed through the throat for your trouble. Kind of like touching a biker's ride.

Shirszae

Blujixapug said:

IMO sometimes it's called for to reveal someone from stealth, whether you're having a meeting in a semi-public area, or you're both bashing in the same area - separately - and they're shrouded or hidden. But doing so is also somewhat provocative, which, alongside serpents being generally no-good ruffians, means you could end up stabbed through the throat for your trouble. Kind of like touching a biker's ride.

What use can it possibly be to reveal someone who is bashing in your area? At worst, they might take it as a provocation, or take an interest in stealing/spying/stalking/robbing you. At best, they'll simply change rooms and hide again.

Sena

Shirszae said:

What use can it possibly be to reveal someone who is bashing in your area? At worst, they might take it as a provocation, or take an interest in stealing/spying/stalking/robbing you. At best, they'll simply change rooms and hide again.

They might not have noticed they were hidden, in which case they'll probably remain unhidden.

Kyrra

Just keep alertness up. *shrug* Unless someone is phased etc, I've never had issues keeping track of the hidey people I am with. Hell, it's useful for keeping track of everyone around you, not just those hiding.

Eld

I don't really understand. Someone's hidden/shrouded/phased and you search/dispel/eye them. Maybe they don't care or laugh it off and everyone goes about their business. Maybe they were doing something important that you ruined and you have words, things are said, perhaps fisticuffs ensue (but with dirks. Dirkicuffs? Fistidirks?). The assumption is that they had a reason for being hidden, and you had a reason to expose them. If those reasons conflict, you may well have reason to attack each other.
I guess what I don't understand is what you mean by "acceptable" and "punishable". Under old pk rules, I'd assume you're referring to cause (and arguing that revealing hidden people should not grant cause), but those words are very much open to interpretation by the character in question.

Sylvance

Yep, much of what's been said. With newPK firmly in place (and working far better than I'd dared to dream) a lot of these problems are no longer problems. The problem is that we often get drawn back into the oldPK mindset. The situation you're describing is simply one that takes place all the time in the real world: mirror images of legitimacy. We all usually believe that what we're doing is justified. Problem is that nobody else can see our justification, so you get two people who both think they're right, and conflict happens.

In Achaea, conflict may result in one of you being dead for a little while, and whilst it often sucks if that person turns out to be you, that's the game we're all playing.

TL;DR - Some people are assholes that use the slightest provocation to gank folks. Some people are assholes who think they have the right to play the game without ever ever getting into a conflict that isn't strictly on their terms. Most people don't subscribe to either of these extremes.

Iocun

Search all the way. IC, I don't see it as "stripping a defence". I see it as a person taking a look around and spotting you. Guess you should have hidden better if you didn't want to be spotted!

Sylvance

Daeir said:

When I played a Serpent, the ethos for infiltration was basically "if you're seen, get out or kill the witness".

It was usually get out, but sometimes "kill the witness" was appropriate. If you suspect a Serpent is watching you and you're afraid of entering combat for whatever reason, just be smart about it instead of whipping out the flashlight/search/light/flash/eye sigil.

I can't personally figure out the mentality of killing a witness that will return to life 5 minutes later and tell anyone who will listen what your precise location and actions were.  Hell, they can even convey this information whilst dead. If it's kill them to get out, then I get it. Otherwise... it's just PK, plain and simple, and doesn't sound particularly justified in my humble opinion (but who am I?).

Nemutaur

Sylvance said:

Daeir said:

When I played a Serpent, the ethos for infiltration was basically "if you're seen, get out or kill the witness".

It was usually get out, but sometimes "kill the witness" was appropriate. If you suspect a Serpent is watching you and you're afraid of entering combat for whatever reason, just be smart about it instead of whipping out the flashlight/search/light/flash/eye sigil.

I can't personally figure out the mentality of killing a witness that will return to life 5 minutes later and tell anyone who will listen what your precise location and actions were.  Hell, they can even convey this information whilst dead. If it's kill them to get out, then I get it. Otherwise... it's just PK, plain and simple, and doesn't sound particularly justified in my humble opinion (but who am I?).

Uh the infiltrating serpent can move to another room? Leave and come back later....there's a lot of options.

If the serpent gets discovered and wants to put up a fight, go for it.

Sylvance

Nemutaur said:

Sylvance said:

Daeir said:

When I played a Serpent, the ethos for infiltration was basically "if you're seen, get out or kill the witness".

It was usually get out, but sometimes "kill the witness" was appropriate. If you suspect a Serpent is watching you and you're afraid of entering combat for whatever reason, just be smart about it instead of whipping out the flashlight/search/light/flash/eye sigil.

I can't personally figure out the mentality of killing a witness that will return to life 5 minutes later and tell anyone who will listen what your precise location and actions were.  Hell, they can even convey this information whilst dead. If it's kill them to get out, then I get it. Otherwise... it's just PK, plain and simple, and doesn't sound particularly justified in my humble opinion (but who am I?).

Uh the infiltrating serpent can move to another room? Leave and come back later....there's a lot of options.

If the serpent gets discovered and wants to put up a fight, go for it.

Sure he can. But... he could also do that without killing the witness just because he got seen doing something he shouldn't. I'm not (quite!) saying that you shouldn't kill somebody who notices you, simply that I think it's pointless. If they attack you... then sure, fill your boots.

Nemutaur

Sylvance said:

Nemutaur said:

Sylvance said:

Daeir said:

When I played a Serpent, the ethos for infiltration was basically "if you're seen, get out or kill the witness".

It was usually get out, but sometimes "kill the witness" was appropriate. If you suspect a Serpent is watching you and you're afraid of entering combat for whatever reason, just be smart about it instead of whipping out the flashlight/search/light/flash/eye sigil.

I can't personally figure out the mentality of killing a witness that will return to life 5 minutes later and tell anyone who will listen what your precise location and actions were.  Hell, they can even convey this information whilst dead. If it's kill them to get out, then I get it. Otherwise... it's just PK, plain and simple, and doesn't sound particularly justified in my humble opinion (but who am I?).

Uh the infiltrating serpent can move to another room? Leave and come back later....there's a lot of options.

If the serpent gets discovered and wants to put up a fight, go for it.

Sure he can. But... he could also do that without killing the witness just because he got seen doing something he shouldn't. I'm not (quite!) saying that you shouldn't kill somebody who notices you, simply that I think it's pointless. If they attack you... then sure, fill your boots.

From an RP standpoint it makes perfect sense to kill the witness. In all likelyhood he's infiltrating your home city so just call for help to get the guards to you or move before the serpent attacks if you can't fight. But silencing a witness is the right thing to do.

Sylvance

Nemutaur said:

Sylvance said:

Nemutaur said:

Sylvance said:

Daeir said:

When I played a Serpent, the ethos for infiltration was basically "if you're seen, get out or kill the witness".

It was usually get out, but sometimes "kill the witness" was appropriate. If you suspect a Serpent is watching you and you're afraid of entering combat for whatever reason, just be smart about it instead of whipping out the flashlight/search/light/flash/eye sigil.

I can't personally figure out the mentality of killing a witness that will return to life 5 minutes later and tell anyone who will listen what your precise location and actions were.  Hell, they can even convey this information whilst dead. If it's kill them to get out, then I get it. Otherwise... it's just PK, plain and simple, and doesn't sound particularly justified in my humble opinion (but who am I?).

Uh the infiltrating serpent can move to another room? Leave and come back later....there's a lot of options.

If the serpent gets discovered and wants to put up a fight, go for it.

Sure he can. But... he could also do that without killing the witness just because he got seen doing something he shouldn't. I'm not (quite!) saying that you shouldn't kill somebody who notices you, simply that I think it's pointless. If they attack you... then sure, fill your boots.

From an RP standpoint it makes perfect sense to kill the witness. In all likelyhood he's infiltrating your home city so just call for help to get the guards to you or move before the serpent attacks if you can't fight. But silencing a witness is the right thing to do.

Hmm. I'm gonna stop debating this before you change my mind

Iocun

Nemutaur said:

Sylvance said:

Nemutaur said:

Sylvance said:

Daeir said:

When I played a Serpent, the ethos for infiltration was basically "if you're seen, get out or kill the witness".

It was usually get out, but sometimes "kill the witness" was appropriate. If you suspect a Serpent is watching you and you're afraid of entering combat for whatever reason, just be smart about it instead of whipping out the flashlight/search/light/flash/eye sigil.

I can't personally figure out the mentality of killing a witness that will return to life 5 minutes later and tell anyone who will listen what your precise location and actions were.  Hell, they can even convey this information whilst dead. If it's kill them to get out, then I get it. Otherwise... it's just PK, plain and simple, and doesn't sound particularly justified in my humble opinion (but who am I?).

Uh the infiltrating serpent can move to another room? Leave and come back later....there's a lot of options.

If the serpent gets discovered and wants to put up a fight, go for it.

Sure he can. But... he could also do that without killing the witness just because he got seen doing something he shouldn't. I'm not (quite!) saying that you shouldn't kill somebody who notices you, simply that I think it's pointless. If they attack you... then sure, fill your boots.

From an RP standpoint it makes perfect sense to kill the witness. In all likelyhood he's infiltrating your home city so just call for help to get the guards to you or move before the serpent attacks if you can't fight. But silencing a witness is the right thing to do.

Except that being dead doesn't silence people on Achaea. Only when they embrace, which is voluntary.

Sylvance

Yep, that was my original point, but it does stop them calling for guards.

Nim

Sylvance said:

Daeir said:

When I played a Serpent, the ethos for infiltration was basically "if you're seen, get out or kill the witness".

It was usually get out, but sometimes "kill the witness" was appropriate. If you suspect a Serpent is watching you and you're afraid of entering combat for whatever reason, just be smart about it instead of whipping out the flashlight/search/light/flash/eye sigil.

I can't personally figure out the mentality of killing a witness that will return to life 5 minutes later and tell anyone who will listen what your precise location and actions were.  Hell, they can even convey this information whilst dead. If it's kill them to get out, then I get it. Otherwise... it's just PK, plain and simple, and doesn't sound particularly justified in my humble opinion (but who am I?).

I can think of one advantage - if you make that your M.O. then people might think twice about trying to find sneaky serpents. I know that Nim, a long time ago, would have been reluctant to throw an eye sigil down in her own city because she got her butt handed to her by any serpent she fought.

Of course, she later learned how to fight and even beat serpents (that is, she realized she's a blademaster >_> ), and began throwing eye sigils randomly in hopes of finding one. <_< so, I guess it's a double-edged sword.

Sherazad

@Nosrac: Are you the one who randomly searches for serpents in Thera? My friend said she ignored someone who has did that to her twice in a public place after since she's not doing something fishy, but ICly, if I were a serpent, I'd probably stab your face if you surprise me like that. 

Vayne

The line for being searched out is pretty dull. I mean "You perform a quick search of your surroundings." and  "X performs a quick search of the surroundings. You are discovered!" only seems like the searcher saw you in your hiding spot. This technically should not make you cease to hide or even realize that they see you necessarily. If anything, just the person who searched should be able to see you with no notification to the hider. That would make more sense if we are going to be technical. Nothing to get upset about. More like lifevision/thirdeye functionality.

Otherwise, search should be a little more involved, like "X reaches into the shadows and pulls Y into the light." Where the hiding person is forcibly removed from their hiding place for all to see. This would be much more upsetting and reason to stab someone in the face.

Delphinus

Vayne said:

The line for being searched out is pretty dull. I mean "You perform a quick search of your surroundings." and  "X performs a quick search of the surroundings. You are discovered!" only seems like the searcher saw you in your hiding spot. This technically should not make you cease to hide or even realize that they see you necessarily. If anything, just the person who searched should be able to see you with no notification to the hider. That would make more sense if we are going to be technical. Nothing to get upset about. More like lifevision/thirdeye functionality.

That would be pretty silly. If I search for someone, either I find them or I don't. It's not "you pried open the bushes but looked away, and now if you look at your general surroundings, you can see them."

Vayne said:

Otherwise, search should be a little more involved, like "X reaches into the shadows and pulls Y into the light." Where the hiding person is forcibly removed from their hiding place for all to see. This would be much more upsetting and reason to stab someone in the face.

It's meant to work in conjunction with HIDE, which you can't do in the presence of others. If they see where you are, you're no longer hidden.

Nosrac

@Vayne@Nemutaur@Iocun@Blujixapug   I agree with your sentiments

@Sherazad   I am someone who will search or expose possible hidden threats at my discretion and leisure. If someone decides to "stab me in the face" for this decision then that is both sad and grounds for a ganking

Sherazad

@Nosrac: That's fine. Killings all around! 

"X performs a quick search of the surroundings. You are discovered!"  -- The urge to stab comes from urge to say, "Damn you for uncovering my diabolical machinations! Die, heathen!" The latter seems to silly to do which is why I opted for the stabbing. 

Disclaimer: I am not doing anything suspicious. Move along. Absolutely nothing to see here.