Documenting Classes

Sarapis

Sothantos said:

I'm a little concerned about the problem that Ruth touched upon already, as well. Sure, a basic combat knowledge guide is fine, but...right now, the guide seems way too extensive for something that's supposed to be OOC, looking at the blademaster example, which covers almost everything. You'd barely need to learn IC at all if everything is going to be documented that well -- teaching in Houses would become pointless, as you'd just point to the guide.

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(Man, I don't know what it is with this forum software's quote system. Couldn't get it to work properly in this post.)

Players learning something is always an OOC thing, not an IC thing. Characters learning something is an IC thing. What your character knows isn't the same thing as what you the player knows.

We're trying to help the player with combat here, not the character, which is exactly what a combat system does too. The character doesn't know or care whether the commands are being entered by you via telepathy via typing or via vadisystem. 

Ruth

I personally learnt a lot through IC discussions after spars.

'After voidfisting, their herbs are not effective on them temporarily, so take this chance to induce paralysis and strike their knees.'

It's a hard line to draw, admittedly, between what players are learning OOCly and what characters are learning ICly.

Cahin

In my eyes it's not so much of an OOC/IC thing as it is slighting the players that put in time to learn the class mechanics through trial and error.

I'm all for a push for making the game more new player welcoming to protect the longevity of the game, but I think that can be done without breeding a generation of players who have no idea why they are doing something, but can almost instantly leap the gap to mid tier combat with 5 minutes of reading.

Especially with classes like blademaster that seem vastly superior in one versus one.

Shirszae

Cahin said:

In my eyes it's not so much of an OOC/IC thing as it is slighting the players that put in time to learn the class mechanics through trial and error.

I'm all for a push for making the game more new player welcoming to protect the longevity of the game, but I think that can be done without breeding a generation of players who have no idea why they are doing something, but can almost instantly leap the gap to mid tier combat with 5 minutes of reading.

Especially with classes like blademaster that seem vastly superior in one versus one.

Ah, come on! You think someone is going to absorb everything just by reading a wiki? In five minutes? Please! If it was so, people would learn anyway after five minutes of talking with an experiened fighter. We all know this is not the case. Most people are not that smart. They will still have questions, doubts, etc. 

Besides, the whole 'no idea what they are doing' sounds very much like systems, and oh, hey, we already have those~

Cahin

Shirszae said:

Cahin said:

In my eyes it's not so much of an OOC/IC thing as it is slighting the players that put in time to learn the class mechanics through trial and error.

I'm all for a push for making the game more new player welcoming to protect the longevity of the game, but I think that can be done without breeding a generation of players who have no idea why they are doing something, but can almost instantly leap the gap to mid tier combat with 5 minutes of reading.

Especially with classes like blademaster that seem vastly superior in one versus one.

Ah, come on! You think someone is going to absorb everything just by reading a wiki? In five minutes? Please! If it was so, people would learn anyway after five minutes of talking with an experiened fighter. We all know this is not the case. Most people are not that smart. They will still have questions, doubts, etc. 

Besides, the whole 'no idea what they are doing' sounds very much like systems, and oh, hey, we already have those~

I'm pretty sure if someone knew how to code you could teach them to kill 60% of Achaea as a blademaster very quickly. Sure it was hyperbole, but that doesn't make the point any more real.

eta: Shirszae: Besides, the whole 'no idea what they are doing' sounds very much like systems, and oh, hey, we already have those~

Just because the stove is on fire doesn't mean the correct solution is to douse the flames in gasoline.  I'm not against posting information to help aid newbies on a wiki, but I think there is a line that doesn't need to be crossed. Assisting newbies with what their abilities do as well as base affliction theory is great, but I feel like that should be sufficient.  If they can't use logic to formulate strategies from that information, they probably have no place in solo Achaean combat in the first place.

Sothantos

Sarapis said:

(Man, I don't know what it is with this forum software's quote system. Couldn't get it to work properly in this post.)

Players learning something is always an OOC thing, not an IC thing. Characters learning something is an IC thing. What your character knows isn't the same thing as what you the player knows.

We're trying to help the player with combat here, not the character, which is exactly what a combat system does too. The character doesn't know or care whether the commands are being entered by you via telepathy via typing or via vadisystem. 

I don't think anyone's arguing that it's not the player learning. The distinction exists because there's a different result when people learn IG and learn out of game.

When you learn in-game, you'd be actively contributing to the game itself by being a part of it. You learn from new friends, mentors, post-training discussions, as a part of House and city events/progression, etcetera. These are the kind of activities that many people find fun and enjoyable, and that contribute to the in-game community. Generally, this kind of learning means you actually participate: in-game learning involves interaction, while wiki-reading is something you can do alone and logged out. If a significant amount of teaching is moved to the wiki, in-game learning would become less common, and thus likely detract from the atmosphere/relationships of the game.

Sherazad

le sigh. Echoing what @Sothantos said earlier.

Tesha

I am working on a combat-teaching thing for Targossas, and I am really looking forward to teaching our noncombatants. I feel like if this wiki was already set up, a combat-teaching program would be unnecessary and cut off avenues of roleplay that are currently available and quite enjoyable. I can really only just echo what @Sothantos said, there is little else I can add that he has not already conveyed. I am not opposed to the idea, I think it can be helpful. I am just worried it will reduce player interaction, which is one of the greatest things about Achaea.

Naisar

I believe that the common argument against extensive information on the wiki is fundamentally flawed.  The basic premise is that given a new player, if they learn a piece of information from the wiki, they do not spend time in-game learning it from other players.  This is true.  The issue arises later on, when people claim that this results in less in-game interaction and thus a decrease in quality of the game.

Let me first state that the wiki is a more efficient means of information dissemination for new players.  Reading a wiki page on a topic is much faster than requiring a more experienced player to type it all out.  Furthermore it is always available, allowing newbies access even on off-hours or when more experienced players are online but busy.  Providing the option (note emphasis) to experienced players of pointing a newbie to a wiki page is a large time-saver.  They're always welcome to explain something themselves if they're so inclined, but for those who don't get their rocks off explaining the same thing to a hundred different new players that may or may not stick around, being able to point to a static resource is fantastic.

Returning to the main thread of the argument, I would say that while a wiki will lead to less of a very specific sort of interaction, it won't lead to less interaction in general.  It does mean less players asking about antitheft, or how backbreakers work.  It also means more players putting that knowledge into action instead of floundering about desperately trying to soak up whatever more experienced players have time to tell them.  More players will be out and about in Achaea, helping with defense, sparring, working on city projects, or advancing through their house ranks- and that's exactly what we need.  The learning curve of Achaea is the main barrier to entry.  Lower that cliff a little and you'll have more ikkle nooblets gnawing on your ankles begging for attention, I'll guarantee you that.

Perhaps it's just me, but I'd rather play an Achaea where newbies spend their time out and about in the world instead of sitting in cities listening to newcomer aides repeat the same things they have decades- literally.  Better access to information breeds more engaged and interested players, and I think in the end that's what we all want.

Ruth

Then this is no different to having help scrolls for combat advice, isn't it?

Characters/players can also help filter out what is too much info and what is just right, too.

Sothantos

Teaching isn't always boring, mindless explanation, and it opens up many avenues to more in-depth interaction with other characters.. I personally quite enjoy working with people with combat and teaching -- there's a lot of fun to be had which isn't just repetition. As someone who plays a more reserved character, I would say that the a significant percentage of my in-character interactions with other people have sprung from combat discussion.

Daeir himself said that he learned about locks through tons of discussion with Tvistor -- this is an interaction that would be made pointless with a wiki. Again, I'm not opposed to information being on the wiki, but I believe it should be in a more limited form with a heavier technical focus than what the first few pages right now are. I would argue that explaining locks and affliction stacking theory is quickly approaching too much theory information on the wiki that really should be learned IG.

Naisar

Ruth said:

Then this is no different to having help scrolls for combat advice, isn't it? Characters/players can also help filter out what is too much info and what is just right, too.

It's not very different from having global help files, no.  No reason the admins couldn't mirror some of the more crucial pages over if they so desired.  But a wiki is crowdsourced; help files are not.  Sarapis would be better to outline why he's angling for the wiki instead; I'd be guessing.

@Sothantos I'm not saying basic instruction's always boring, I'm saying there's no reason to require it.  Go bonkers if that's your thing.

@Sarapis, I've written a fast sample of what an ability page could look like http://wiki.achaea.com/Impaleslash.  Thoughts?  Also, would you want an example section?  Like a very short, edited log of someone using it, or something similar.

Iocun

Daeir said:

The reception to this idea is disappointing. People who are interested in learning combat as a player will seek it out on the wiki, people who are interested in their characters learning combat will seek it out IG as it always has been done.

I don't think that is actually the whole truth. The thing is, 90% of players do not RP a different degree of combat mastery than they possess as players. Most players who have a good grasp on Achaean combat will (if their characters involve themselves in combat at all) actually make use of said understanding and their characters will be successful combatants. And a player without an OOC understanding of Achaean combat simply can't roleplay a character who's good at combat, since he'll be losing fights all the time. This is less prominent in other aspects of Achaea: you can easily RP someone who's good at riding without being a good rider IRL.

That means that people who are interested in their characters learning combat will almost always tend to go for the method of learning that provides them, as players, the greatest amount of combat knowledge first. If we're lucky, they'll somehow RP their character learning stuff as well, but if it's not required, many will forgo this.

The advantage of IC teaching of technical aspects of combat is that both the teaching of the player and the teaching of the character is done at once, so the growth of the character is automatically being played out. My character can take another character as a student in-game, give them IC documents to read, explain certain general concepts to them and it will teach him as a player while at the same time creating an IC interaction that might otherwise not have happened. I can't however point someone to a wiki page in an IC interaction and ask them to read it as a foundation, so I first have to make sure their player understands it on an OOC level and then find a way to somehow RP their characters having learned the same things in-game as well.

On the other hand, the disadvantage with keeping combat teaching solely in-game is that it can very easily devolve into OOC or semi-OOC talk which is not clearly separated from the IC one. One moment you're explaining afflictions and locks (IC), the next you're at "chasing balance" (quite OOC), and the next you're saying stuff like "dstab automatically hits and can't miss" (very OOC), or "incinerate will kill you if you're at 50% health" (very OOC). It can be very hard to draw the line between those things when trying to teach combat mechanics in an IC fashion while still giving their players all the important information.

That makes me a bit torn between the two camps here, because I can very well understand both points of view. I will thus probably seek to create better written teaching in-game documents for IC use as well, but I also believe that adding a basic amount on the wiki won't do harm.

It is simply wrong to assume that up to now everyone learned everything by himself without any OOC help. Most people had others tell them stuff on an OOC level, or they read up stuff on the forums, or they examined curing systems, etc. Before I first got into combat, I had obtained quite a bit of theoretical knowledge by being a regular forums guest (both of Achaea's official forums and its inofficial progenitors like Tenchu's forums), and dabbling with curing systems like the ACP, giving me quite a bit of knowledge before I actually made any combat experiences in Achaea myself.

Shibumi

Any kind of information about combat it is always good! As a newbie, I think it is very useful to have a resource like this. It won't bar me from interacting more with the people, I would say the opposite.

Cooper

Sarapis said:

Sothantos said:

I'm a little concerned about the problem that Ruth touched upon already, as well. Sure, a basic combat knowledge guide is fine, but...right now, the guide seems way too extensive for something that's supposed to be OOC, looking at the blademaster example, which covers almost everything. You'd barely need to learn IC at all if everything is going to be documented that well -- teaching in Houses would become pointless, as you'd just point to the guide.

----------------------------------------------------------------

(Man, I don't know what it is with this forum software's quote system. Couldn't get it to work properly in this post.)

Players learning something is always an OOC thing, not an IC thing. Characters learning something is an IC thing. What your character knows isn't the same thing as what you the player knows.

We're trying to help the player with combat here, not the character, which is exactly what a combat system does too. The character doesn't know or care whether the commands are being entered by you via telepathy via typing or via vadisystem. 

@Sarapis

It is worth noting that the Achaean Wiki is considered IC information so your statement here isn't entirely accurate.

Aepas

I severely dislike the addition of artifacts in the wiki. We all know that artifacts exist, but saying "here are the arties you should buy" just seems wrong to me. Really, any class should be focused enough to kill properly without arties, and you should not be encouraging the purchase of artifacts in my opinion. I believe it would be better to outline the classes shortfalls and strengths, and then let the person decide what they are going to be purchasing. Also, having a spot where you talk about how each stat effects the class would also help a person decide which artifacts to buy. Don't go putting ideas in people's heads that they need artifacts to fight efficiently.

Other than that I rather like @Daeir's wiki thing. It gets enough of a point across while still being amazingly vague, so you can't learn too much from it. I think it's a good tool for young ones to go in and look at classes as a more general overview before selecting the right class. I've no problem with raw data being found out and about, but I'd be very upset if I started seeing strategies that work put up, because vadi or someone would get thier hands on them and achaea would slowly become more dull.

TLDR
raw data (numbers, effects) = OK!
strategies = NO!

On that note, I'd love to be the hard charger on setting up a new druid page on the wiki. It's dreadfully dull. I believe that we could all give the wiki a bit of love. It's really bad. It's up to us to make things flashy and pretty again!

Nim

I agree with most of what @Aepas says (please more raw data - make it useful to newbies and midbies alike! ), except in the case of Blademasters, knowing how bands work actually is pretty relevant. Likewise, dirks for serpents, monk arties for monks, etc.

Sip rings and bows are less useful, however. The latter at least sort of makes sense to mention as a possible means of mitigating Blademaster's lack of range, but it's not as though it's the only means (throwing weapons and bombs are two other ones I can think of), so even then, its inclusion is odd at best, and probably better suited for a more general topic regarding non-class-specific ranged weaponry.

That said, the treatment of bands is somewhat lacking, as it merely states that it grants a 5% bonus, yet the entire article does not even mention the thing that complicates that particular issue - stances! In short, how stance and band bonuses mix would be pretty useful information to know (although, anything at all about stances would be useful to know, at this point!) This is important because I remember some mathematical models of blademaster attack speed suggesting that the bonus is additive rather than multiplicative, between stances and bands, except I'm not sure which model is correct.

I would so be writing this in the wiki myself, if I hadn't just spent multiple months being generally away from Achaea, forgetting all the cool stuff I learned about blademasters.

(ps, @Sarapis: having actual coder people give technical information on how achaean combat works would be great, but some of us players have been hard at work trying to work it out experimentally as well <_< )

Sarapis

Cooper said:

Sarapis said:

Sothantos said:

I'm a little concerned about the problem that Ruth touched upon already, as well. Sure, a basic combat knowledge guide is fine, but...right now, the guide seems way too extensive for something that's supposed to be OOC, looking at the blademaster example, which covers almost everything. You'd barely need to learn IC at all if everything is going to be documented that well -- teaching in Houses would become pointless, as you'd just point to the guide.

----------------------------------------------------------------

(Man, I don't know what it is with this forum software's quote system. Couldn't get it to work properly in this post.)

Players learning something is always an OOC thing, not an IC thing. Characters learning something is an IC thing. What your character knows isn't the same thing as what you the player knows.

We're trying to help the player with combat here, not the character, which is exactly what a combat system does too. The character doesn't know or care whether the commands are being entered by you via telepathy via typing or via vadisystem. 

@Sarapis

It is worth noting that the Achaean Wiki is considered IC information so your statement here isn't entirely accurate.

----------------------------------------

Not any more. The idea that a wiki should be IC is a little silly to my mind. It's a wiki. It's completely outside of the game world. 

Cobra

Dear @Sarapis,

  You know there is a big difference between..."Playing" in Achaea and "Fighting" in Achaea.  It's clearly night and day.  Personally, I enjoy the PvP more than any other aspect however, laying out the secrets of combat seems a bit tricky.  My humble suggestion is this.

  I. Put some "sample" fights in the Wiki.  Short and sweet - To the point.  This is how it goes, and this is what it looks like...It always fascinated me as a kid to read...someone else's combat log.  (I understand there is a complete forum post about it...) but, what is a venom lock again?

  II. Have a general set up.  "Out of Character" - You need a mud client and need to learn to use it.  (It's true...) This is where to start...

  III. Walk them directly over to the WIki "How to cure yourself while learning to fight...."  Bloodroot and skullcap are easily known to a veteran but a new one is like...huh?

  Then, maybe break fighting "lightly" down by class -  

Some "tips and tricks" and maybe then some advice on what defenses are... 

Then a How to "ask a master combatant" for further knowledge.   Get them in the mood to fight, the lost art of PvP.  

  I would be honored to add a few words of wisdom myself.  I have taught a couple serpents the art of fighting techniques needed for success.  I am sure @Iocun will also do an outstanding job.  Maybe we could all add a bit here and there.

  I love getting players interested in fighting.  That's what I am all about.  Let me know how I can help in any way.

Sincerely,

Cobra

Sanna

As a new player, I think I have a little different perspective. While I admit it's fun to Roleplay learning, if your new to the game, the combat system is IMPOSSIBLE to learn without OOC help. I had to figure out what the heck a system was, how to set one up, etc. Then I had to learn the ways to fight as a shaman. And I've learned almost all of this in game. I've learned a lot, but it's still incredibly confusing. There is one thing to know, OK, I need to stack kelp afflictions, and another to be able to put it into practice. I think things like this would be of great benefit, because you can learn the Grit of combat, without being forced to rely on your house having a good combatant of your class(which luckily, mine did. Andraste, best mentor ever.) This is a very top heavy game, with most of the active players knowing all of these combat mechanics and tricks. I want to be able to learn as much as I can about my class, IG and OUT. 

Kaie

What ever happened with this thing? I personally believe it's a great idea to give a general rundown of what you can expect out of each class combat wise. Maybe not so much for giving out any complicated strategies but, more of a general idea of how to do it. Not every newbie comes in already knowing stuff and it's challenging at first.. even more so if you don't know exactly how your class works yet. Jester was difficult since there were almost no jester combatants around and only a handful of houses accepted them. 3 I believe accepted it.. one being the CIJ which had almost no combat advice of any kind. I asked people for ages when I started and honestly the most common answer for advice on how a Jester can kill was "I don't really know." So, it took a while for the pieces to finally start falling into place. More than it would have if this was available back then to tell me where I needed to focus my attention.

Sarapis

Yep, it's going to be a long-term project most likely. 

I revised an old (and way way out of date) combat essay I wrote years ago and will put that up there as kind of an introduction to combat. We really need people who are class experts to contribute on the individual class pages though.

Eld

I don't see it mentioned here except for @Naisar's brief mention of AB files and don't have time at the moment to dig back through the other thread: Is it desirable to expand the existing wiki pages on individual skillsets with a technical summary of what each ability does? I've been meaning write up something like this for the blademaster skills for house scrolls anyway, when I have the time, and would be happy to toss it up on the wiki as well when I get around to it. As an example of the sort of thing I'm thinking:

InfuseFire:
Changes the damage type of the next slash to fire, and gives it an x% chance to set the target ablaze. Fire-infused slashes do extra damage if the target is already ablaze.

Bladetwist:
Inflicts about 275 bleeding on the target, increasing to X if the target's torso is damaged

Impaleslash:
Increases the mana cost of clotting by an amount dependent on the targets maximum mana (bringing the total mana cost from 60 to 60+(max mana)/30) for 30 seconds.

And so on.

Sarapis

Yes, definitely Eld, that'd be great.

Sarapis

I've got a general guide to Achaean combat up based on an essay I wrote years ago on our combat system. I think most of it is correct (go ahead and change it where it isn't), but it definitely has the flavor of many years ago, as it exclusively mentions only the first six or seven classes that were put into Achaea. 

By all means, expand it as well, or add sections that you feel are missing. (Or comment here with what you think is missing as an overview of "how combat works in achaea".)

http://wiki.achaea.com/Combat:Overview

It has very little mention of Alchemical cure equivalents, btw, so if someone wanted to add those that'd be great.

Sarapis

Also translated HELP AFFLICTIONS to the wiki at wiki.achaea.com/Cures

Lianca

@Sarapis Added Alchemical equivalents to http://wiki.achaea.com/Combat:Overview also fixed a few mistakes and missing listings in there.

Sarapis

Awesome, thanks @Lianca!

Berenene

I may not be looking at the right place, but there doesn't seem to be any links to any of the combat pages.

From here:http://wiki.achaea.com/Category:Combat

there doesn't seem to be any way to click a link to take one to a specific class, unless it's just not up yet.

Sarapis

Yeah, they're mainly not linked yet. From the page you linked from, you'll see a couple links to Combat:Blademaster and Combat:Serpent, for instance. Most of the classes haven't even been touched yet though.