BM swords for newbies

Skye

copy pasta'd from the rants thread cause I"m too lazy to detail further:

Even as a non-novice with wings / longterm player who logs in to afk mode, I find the Blade Quest an incredible chore.

What we consider a 'regular' repop time, is incredibly time consuming for a newbie who just wants to make a start on their adventure. They don't know where all these 'villages' and 'forges' are (except maybe the one in Lodi), they don't understand the concept of 'repop' either, or that the lumps that do pop are randomised.

What they're waiting for is not some optional thing, it's their weapon so they're going to feel paralysed without being able to start with their class skills.

If anything, Murad should be distributing bokken or forging some 'nameless' swords, like, stuff that can be found in Minia or Lodi and then after forging them, hint to the newbie that more powerful swords can be forged from rarer materials found scattered through Sapience.

Kazu

I can't agree with this enough. I've had a couple of blademaster alts to check out the class, and I've had a couple where I literally had to wait around 3 hours to get the right metal for my sword. That's with me going to at least 6 forges in search for them. I honestly would have just quit the game if I was a new character and I had to search and wait that long just to get my most basic starting equipment.

Synbios

-after the introduction from Kavaya-

Murad looks over you briefly, before performing some quick measurements of your height and your arms. Satisfied, he selects a piece of steel and places it in the forge.

The sound of hammer on steel fills the air as Murad beats the steel into the shape of a blade, before sharpening it on a grindstone and affixing a sturdy grip and pommel.

Placing the sword into your hands, Murad says, "This is an unbound blade, an incomplete template from which countless blademasters begin their journey. It will serve you for the time being. However, in order for you to unlock the true potential of your weapon - and by extension, yourself - you will need to bind it to you in the ceremony of Blade Naming."

Glaring severely into your eyes, Murad says, "A blade that is not bound to you will be strongly inferior to that of a Named one. If you truly wish to be a practitioner of the Two Arts, hear me well."

Murad says, "In the Southern Vashnar Mountains, there is a glade of frozen trees. Long ago, the broken blade of Lucaine Pyramides was found embedded in one of the trees. Time has long since reduced that tree and the blade to mere dust. Gather the ashes scattered throughout that glade and bring them to me."

Murad says, "I will need a special lump of iron as well. None of the scrap metal in city blacksmiths has served as a proper substitute, but forges like <insert randomized list of 1-2 village forges> have been known to produce it in acceptable quality."

Murad says, "Finally, I require a clump of golden clay. The Pachacacha river has been known to produce it in great quantities, but the best kind of golden clay can be found in the deep waters where the river makes its round through massive boulders."

Murad tells you, "If you need me to remind you of the materials, just TELL MURAD ASH/LUMP/CLAY."

Synbios

Addendum: Possible properties of the unbound blade:

-balance recovery probably 2-3 seconds, modifiable by traits

-stance provides absolutely no benefit/malus to drawslash damage and balance recovery(meaning that you don't get the benefits of faster thyr balance while using an unbound blade)

-drawslash damage probably 1/2 to 2/3 of unstanced drawslash

-cannot BROKENSTAR, INFUSE or COMPASSSLASH

Skye

I think affecting the stances might be a bit too extreme. not being able to use the super powerz (because the blade isn't strong enough to endure the powah) seems about right though. From an outsider's pov.

I don't really know the damages or the numbers but I don't think the sword should feel like a Colbey in terms of drawbacks.

edit: gdi those misleading smilies!

Synbios

Skye said:

I think affecting the stances might be a bit too extreme :x not being able to use the super powerz (because the blade isn't strong enough to endure the powah) seems about right though. From an outsider's pov.

I don't really know the damages or the numbers but I don't think the sword should feel like a Colbey in terms of drawbacks.

I'd think that stances being unable to work with the unbound blade is incentive enough to go and do the blade quest afterwards. Or at least do some bashing before doing the quest. Consider as well that novices will only likely be able to learn up to Thyr, which is their primary bashing stance(until you get Mir and/or decide to hunt hurty things with it). I'd consider it being the equivalent of graduating from Colbey swords to rapiers.

Eld

Synbios said:

Addendum: Possible properties of the unbound blade:

-balance recovery probably 2-3 seconds, modifiable by traits

-stance provides absolutely no benefit/malus to drawslash damage and balance recovery(meaning that you don't get the benefits of faster thyr balance while using an unbound blade)

-drawslash damage probably 1/2 to 2/3 of unstanced drawslash

-cannot BROKENSTAR, INFUSE or COMPASSSLASH

I'd say 3s at least. Unstanced, unbanded drawslash without nimble is about 2.5 with a standard sword, so at least need to be slower than that. You could give it the damage of Thyr and the speed of Mir/Doya.

Antonius

Surely just making them X% (probably 10%) less damaging, less accurate (possibly not - I imagine accuracy is bad enough for new Blademasters) and slower than an unbanded sword would serve the same purpose without being so needlessly complex?

Trevize

Skye said:

If anything, Murad should be distributing bokken or forging some 'nameless' swords, like, stuff that can be found in Minia or Lodi and then after forging them, hint to the newbie that more powerful swords can be forged from rarer materials found scattered through Sapience.

I like the idea, and the suggestions of 10% penalty in speed/damage, can't brokenstar, sounds good.

Eld

Antonius said:

Surely just making them X% (probably 10%) less damaging, less accurate (possibly not - I imagine accuracy is bad enough for new Blademasters) and slower than an unbanded sword would serve the same purpose without being so needlessly complex?

That would be the basic effect of what I said, though the damage effects of stance aren't a straight percentage. Stances were just there to give a rough idea of magnitude (~15% damage reduction, ~25% longer balance, iirc). 10% each (so like a level -2 band) would be fine, too. Mostly I was pointing out that 2 seconds unstanced drawslash would be a significant improvement over normal, rather than a reduction.

Jacen

Blademaster  drawslash accuracy against denizens is amazing, my alt blew through Minia in a ridiculously short amount of time. Honestly didn't  miss a single slash while I was in there. Just make stance have no effect on the unbound blade, and reduce speed to 3 seconds. Leave the damage at normal unstanced damage. Still leaves it a better bashing class than most, but also considerably takes away from its potential. I'd even go so far as to make all blade attacks (slashes, impale, brokenstar ) with the exception of drawslash undoable with an unbounded blade. I think the lack of usable abilities, rather than the increased costs/decreased benefits, really drives home that the named blade is an extension of your spirit.

@Synbios's idea is excellent. Please implement.

Trevize

Jacen said:

I'd even go so far as to make all blade attacks (slashes, impale, brokenstar ) with the exception of drawslash undoable with an unbounded blade. I think the lack of usable abilities, rather than the increased costs/decreased benefits, really drives home that the named blade is an extension of your spirit

Agreed.

Iocun

Just make it only possible to drawslash with that kind of blade and nothing else. It would then serve perfectly fine as a hunting weapon, but be unsuitable for PvP. Most novices won't jump into PvP right away anyways and those who do can go through the whole quest.

Xae

And this is why I spend a lot of my time speaking with novice blademasters and helping them forge their swords, along with lesson learning.

Synbios

@Xae: Ditto(Well, within reasonable factional limit). But having them have their own 'starter sword' would be great. 

Nemutaur

I do like this wooden/starter sword idea. I would love it if you could ask Murad where the lump of ore is that you're looking for instead of having to run around to all the forges for half an hour hoping that the lump of lead will finally show up.

Synbios

Nemutaur said:

I do like this wooden/starter sword idea. I would love it if you could ask Murad where the lump of ore is that you're looking for instead of having to run around to all the forges for half an hour hoping that the lump of lead will finally show up.

I actually have an idea for that:

-Visit forge, look for lump

-If no lump, check other forges

-If too tired, impatient or pressed for time, ASK <NAME OF BLACKSMITH> BRONZE/PLATINUM/GOLD/ETC.

-Blacksmith says, "Well, I could try to refine some bronze/platinum/gold/etc, but it will cost you 300 sovereigns."

-GIVE 300 GOLD TO BLACKSMITH

-Blacksmith says, "Alright. One moment."

Placing some raw ore in the forge, <blacksmith> begins the process of extracting valuable metals from the rock.

After several moments, <blacksmith> dips a steel ladle in forge and pours molten <bronze/platinum/gold/etc> into a cast, before allowing the metal to cool and harden in a vat of water.

Satisfied, <blacksmith> hands a lump of bronze/platinum/gold/etc to you.

Sylvance

Sorry, but now to break my no-posting diet. 

-1 to anything that makes it easier to farm bladenames. I don't have a problem with people farming bladenames, but nor do I think it should be something that can be routinely done in a few minutes. And, yes, I know that the daily limit on ashes puts the brakes on this just a little, but it's not that difficult to get 5+ ashes a day.

Radio silence resumes.

Nakari

I feel like finding the right lump of metal isn't going to be particularly difficult if one knows where all the forges are. It might delay things a bit, but that isn't the substantiative limit on blade name farming. 

If you're a true newbie, on the other hand, and don't know the first thing about geography, it's going to take you a very long time. However, if starter swords of some kind are made available, it might well alleviate the problem of needing to find the lumps when one can't find the forges, as it would allow more time to learn geography a bit better.

Sylvance

Finding it isn't difficult for a bladefarmer, it's just (potentially) time consuming. It might take you 30 seconds if it's in the first forge on your aliased 'WALK TO' list, but it might take 30 minutes if someone's just taken it, or if it respawns to a place you've already checked whilst you're working down the list.

I do agree that it's potentially a huge PITA for a truenoob, but again I think it's a PITA that should add to the feel that this is a serious weapon capable of helping you carve your name in Achaean history. And that feeling of being pissed off that you can't find it should be alleviated by the OP n00bswords, which I think are an absolutely fantastic idea.

One thing I have been wondering for a long time, and which is relevant in ways I'll explain very shortly, is how long it takes before the whole quest resets. That is, is there a point after which Murad will ask you to start the entire quest again? If there is, then removing that reset, along with the OP, would mean that noobs could chip away at this quest whilst still being able to bash in the meantime. If there isn't, then that's one less problem that needs solving.

ETA: To be sure, I'm not entirely neutral to this debate, because I really, really love the blade quest. It was an absolutely stunning opener to my BM game, and whoever designed it is just bursting with win. Sure, the novelty has worn off 200 blades later, but if [I was aware that?] there were more quests like this that really made me feel that I was doing something personally meaningful, I'd be questing a great deal more.

Yue

Sylvance said:

I really, really love the blade quest. It was an absolutely stunning opener to my BM game, and whoever designed it is just bursting with win. Sure, the novelty has worn off 200 blades later, but if [I was aware that?] there were more quests like this that really made me feel that I was doing something personally meaningful, I'd be questing a great deal more.

QFT

Eld

Sylvance said:

Sorry, but now to break my no-posting diet. 

-1 to anything that makes it easier to farm bladenames. I don't have a problem with people farming bladenames, but nor do I think it should be something that can be routinely done in a few minutes. And, yes, I know that the daily limit on ashes puts the brakes on this just a little, but it's not that difficult to get 5+ ashes a day.

Radio silence resumes.

I assume this was to the suggestion for being able to buy ore from a forge? If so, maybe just give it a 5 minute or so wait time. Anyone who's really farming for bladenames is rarely going to take that long to do the quest, but it would still be a potential help for newbies. Not sure it's really necessary, though.

Sylvance

Eld said:

Sylvance said:

Sorry, but now to break my no-posting diet. 

-1 to anything that makes it easier to farm bladenames. I don't have a problem with people farming bladenames, but nor do I think it should be something that can be routinely done in a few minutes. And, yes, I know that the daily limit on ashes puts the brakes on this just a little, but it's not that difficult to get 5+ ashes a day.

Radio silence resumes.

I assume this was to the suggestion for being able to buy ore from a forge? If so, maybe just give it a 5 minute or so wait time. Anyone who's really farming for bladenames is rarely going to take that long to do the quest, but it would still be a potential help for newbies. Not sure it's really necessary, though.
Okay, five minutes is probably looking at the right kind of time, but that system would still remove the feeling of having 'quested' (not in the Achaean sense) for your materials. I think I'm going to be fundamentally opposed to any system of being able to buy them, honestly, but I guess a cooldown is better than no restriction.

One thing that might be worth considering is that the new city-newbie system is going to hopefully mean that there are a lot more people (i.e. the whole of the Ambassador's office) who have to learn the bladequest, which means that truenoob BMs should rarely be flying blind on this quest.

ETA: Damn, but I haven't missed the quotesfails on this thing.

Synbios

@Sylvance: I hope you are not suggesting that my idea to make the lump part of the bladequest a bit easier implies that I love the blade quest any less than you do.

Sylvance

@Synbios - Umm, I just kinda meant that, what I was attempting to convey was more - I was simply intending to full explore th-

Oh! My bus is coming! Gotta run!

Eld

Sylvance said:

Eld said:

Sylvance said:

Sorry, but now to break my no-posting diet. 

-1 to anything that makes it easier to farm bladenames. I don't have a problem with people farming bladenames, but nor do I think it should be something that can be routinely done in a few minutes. And, yes, I know that the daily limit on ashes puts the brakes on this just a little, but it's not that difficult to get 5+ ashes a day.

Radio silence resumes.

I assume this was to the suggestion for being able to buy ore from a forge? If so, maybe just give it a 5 minute or so wait time. Anyone who's really farming for bladenames is rarely going to take that long to do the quest, but it would still be a potential help for newbies. Not sure it's really necessary, though.

Okay, five minutes is probably looking at the right kind of time, but that system would still remove the feeling of having 'quested' (not in the Achaean sense) for your materials. I think I'm going to be fundamentally opposed to any system of being able to buy them, honestly, but I guess a cooldown is better than no restriction.

One thing that might be worth considering is that the new city-newbie system is going to hopefully mean that there are a lot more people (i.e. the whole of the Ambassador's office) who have to learn the bladequest, which means that truenoob BMs should rarely be flying blind on this quest.

ETA: Damn, but I haven't missed the quotesfails on this thing.

Yeah, I understand the argument that being able to buy them could detract from the questing nature of it for newbies (though I'm not sure I really agree). I just think that worries about making it easier for people to farm for good names are not what we should be looking at when thinking about how to make it better for true newbies. I don't see any such changes making it significantly harder for experienced players (or easier, really).