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Commodity Market/Mining Suggestions

CooperCooper Member Posts: 3,975 @@ - Legendary Achaean
So I've been thinking of ways of making mining and the commodity market better and more healthy. Right now there is a lot of market manipulation that goes on by players and cities, massive stockpiles of commodities that will never be sold or used because of dormant people, and too many of some commodities and not enough of others. I've come up with some suggestions that might help a lot!

These changes would give the admin a better way to control lode spawns, stop the ability of both players and cities to stockpile massive amounts of commodities that can be used to manipulate prices, and allow the admin to make lesser used commodities more useful or more rare.

Here's what I think should be done:

- Clear out the commodity market except for the lowest 5% of commodities available for sale. Alternatively, clear out the entire commodity market and set the current average price to the average of the last 6 months if that information is available.

- Put a cap on how far above the current lowest price you can sell commodities for (5-10%)

- Remove the ability to drop or store commodities anywhere except the commodity market or your rift (forcing people sell them at the currently accepted reasonable price)

- Any commodities currently on the ground in a house, ship, stockroom, or any other place will be placed into the inventory of the person who owns or has control of the room

- Base lode spawns on how much has been used and how much is currently on the market

- Make lode spawns even more random than they currently are, so that all the lodes for a commodity don't spawn at the same time or extremely close together. This will stop people from getting the massive/huge/large spawn and being able to corner the market, and will give everyone a fair chance at them



PuxiDridenNataliiaPrythe
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Comments

  • SkyeSkye The Duchess BellatereMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 2,543 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 7
    I kind of believe the comm market is right now on the opposite end of the spectrum. Comm prices can go for as high as they want, but not as low. And people are already selling at a loss which is why some comms are going for such stupid prices. There's also far too many comms in circulation right now with nowhere to go. If you force all the comms onto the market with such a shoddy demand, it'll probably collapse. 


    Lisbethae
  • GreysGreys Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 675 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Isn't the manipulation of costs part of having an player driven economy? I do think its odd that the comm market says you only can price things there for a year but it never gets returned causing items to sit there indefinitely. Unfortunately, having things mailed back is going to be a huge risk to people who can die upon entering realms.

    Also, yeah  the vast majority of the commodities are sold at or below cost.
    Lisbethae
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 5,629 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Trey said:
    Absolutely fucking not on the dropped/stored point. I'm saving for my house, I have nowhere else to keep my steel and wood (and want the ability to negate my losses if I change my mind or it falls through, so I'm not buying housing credits quite yet).
    This, and also people store bulk commodities and sell them strictly outside of the market, at a lower rate than the lowest listing on the Comm Market usually, when they want to sell a whole batch at once instead of waiting for it all to gradually sell and have to keep reevaluating and readjusting the price to stay competitive.


    Lisbethae
  • SaevaSaeva Member Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    They changed the spawn predictably once, but about four days later a select few already had it basically figured out. I still wish it went full random. I also wish every commodity was either as lucrative as silver or that silver would become less scarce. One or the other. Silver being the only real thriving commodity is weird.


    NataliiaLisbethae
  • SiduriSiduri Member Posts: 1,405 @ - Epic Achaean
    I'd lower silver rarity, personally. Also despawning should come to alleviate unpicked lodes, like those tiny ones who yield less than they cost to build.

    image
    Lisbethae
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 5,629 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yeah, having untouched lodes despawn if not built on in X amount of time would be great, as would having a much more randamized lode spawn system. I've pretty much given up on mining for now because everything already gets taken by the same people soon as it pops up.


    SiduriNataliiaLisbethae
  • SaevaSaeva Member Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Also I meant spawn predictability, not predictably. That's what I get for one handed predictive texting on my phone. 


  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaMember Posts: 1,971 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    There is nothing inherently unfair about lode spawns. I was completely brand new to mining a month ago, but in just a few days, I was consistently beating all the top miners in grabbing the best spawns.

    Yes, there is something predictable in spawning, but it is easily learned and equally exploitable by everyone. It is not at all like Wheel spins, because you can't just lock out other miners from grabbing good lodes with triggers/a better ping/whatever.

    Besides, is it not enough to just learn how spawns trend. From that point on, it takes a lot of diligence, planning, investment of time -- and even some strategic & risky plays -- for a miner committed to keep on the best lodes, to actually pull that off.

    This is not an argument against fully randomizing lode appearances. But as mining is deliberately structured to be a competitive business, not an equal-opportunity pastime, people who devote a lot of thought & energy into being maximally productive miners will continue to dominate lodes, no matter how random they're made to be.
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 3,975 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Re: comms not on the ground. The idea behind this is to force all commodities to either be on the market for a reasonable price, or in use by players. Not stockpiled and not being used.

    I understand why some players wouldn't like that, but "because I want to stockpile just in case I want to buy a house in the future but I'm not sure if I want to do that" isn't something that the admin should be taking into consideration.

    Re: spawns. Spawns are "random" right now - there's a general order of which comms spawn. The problem is that when a commodity spawns, all the big lodes spawn at the same time. That means if they spawn at 10:01 and I go look at 10:02, I get all the best lodes. The guy who went at 10:08 got screwed. The suggestion would mean that a massive silver spawns at 10:01, a small gems spawns at 11:15, a tiny coal at 11:25, a small iron at 12:30, etc.

    If people are still able to predict the times of spawns that also needs to change asap. That was supposed to be fixed a long time ago.

    Prythe
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 5,629 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    Re: comms not on the ground. The idea behind this is to force all commodities to either be on the market for a reasonable price, or in use by players. Not stockpiled and not being used.
    This effects people who are in the process of building as well though, with current rift limits. Especially with out of sub plots, it's usually a matter of getting either a surplus of wood or stone and having to wait for a good opportunity to get the other so room credits can be acquired.

    So a lot of people probably have stockpiles with full intent on using them, just are waiting to be able to obtain or afford the full amount/type needed to use them.


  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 3,975 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You would still be able to have an unlimited amount in your inventory. You can also buy commodities and convert them to room credits 1 at a time if you want to do it that way. A room credit is only 200 wood and 100 stone. You can keep enough in your rift for 12 room credits.

  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 5,629 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    That's a good point about the room credits, but don't commodities fall from your inventory if not rifted? Also, what about the potential limitations this puts on things like Forging? If someone obtained a stockpile of steel or iron or anything else used, shouldn't they be able to hold on to and use it for their trade craft? Not everyone is looking to sell, after all.


    Lisbethae
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaMember Posts: 1,971 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    You can keep enough in your rift for 12 room credits.
    I imagine most people would like to stockpile for something bigger than a 1-room house...
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
    Lisbethae
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,050 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Then stockpile room credits rather than the commodities for them. If you know that you definitely want a house then what's the problem?
    CooperKyrra
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaMember Posts: 1,971 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Trey said:
    I'm saving for my house, I have nowhere else to keep my steel and wood (and want the ability to negate my losses if I change my mind or it falls through, so I'm not buying housing credits quite yet).
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 3,975 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 9
    Not a valid concern. There is 30k stone available currently at reasonable prices, and more wood than that. If you want to save up for housing you can save gold, and then buy off of the market. My suggested changes would force most the wood/stone onto the market, so there would be even more available for purchase.

    If you want more rift space, there are artefacts for that. I can hold 10k of each commodity in my rift.

  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,397 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 9
    Cooper said:
    Not a valid concern. There is 30k stone available currently at reasonable prices, and more wood than that. If you want to save up for housing you can save gold, and then buy off of the market. My suggested changes would force most the wood/stone onto the market, so there would be even more available for purchase.

    If you want more rift space, there are artefacts for that. I can hold 10k of each commodity in my rift.
    Subjective, not objective.

    EDIT: For clarity, I haven't gotten the right plot for my house yet, and if it turns out that I get tired of waiting for it I don't want to be stuck with several hundred housing credits that I'll never use. Also, your solution does absolutely nothing for the several hundred thousand commodities I -already have-.

    LisbethaeShirszae
  • SkyeSkye The Duchess BellatereMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 2,543 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    Re: comms not on the ground. The idea behind this is to force all commodities to either be on the market for a reasonable price, or in use by players. 

    This statement seems to make assertion that commodities on the market are currently not at a reasonable price when in fact most people are selling either break even or at a loss (because they r dumb/impatient). It's certainly a buyer's market right now because the excess of severely underused commodities are forcing people either to undersell their comms to quickly recoup their losses or stockpile in the hope that one day there will actually be an event that doesn't involve the use of silver/iron/stone/wood and actually call for something else like the woefully neglected platinum or obsidian (used in the city orb upgrade that nobody wants to use because people complain about having to walk outside city limits to use their wings). 

    If you force all commodities to be on the market (and believe me, there are a lot), without a minimum price threshold, then the prices will plummet even further. Because yes people are that dumb. 


    NataliiaAereidhna
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 3,975 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The majority of commodities are actually priced so that they will not sell. Platinum, gold, ice, coal (LOL), iron, gems, stone, and wood all have the majority priced for unreasonable prices.

  • SkyeSkye The Duchess BellatereMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 2,543 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    That's because if it goes any lower, the miners would be selling at a loss. And the reason why this is happening for a lot of things (like platinum) is because there's a terrible excess of commodities. This was not an issue when comms were a denizen generated thing, there was a fixed price threshold. Now if there's any threshold it would be the amount of money you had to funnel into digging all this stuff out of the ground. If this means that commodities are (unfortunately) going to be more expensive, then that's the uncomfortable reality to live with.

    Btw refined platinum is going for 109 per right now and at least half of it is under 150. I'm pretty sure people paid more for that buying from Blackrock when/if they needed it. So I'm not sure where you get this idea that it's 'priced to not sell'. The stuff is unspeakably slow and expensive to mine and the demand is abysmally low. Regardless, low demand doesn't automatically equate to double digit selling prices, sellers still have their overheads to consider. 


    SiduriAereidhnaLisbethae
  • NataliiaNataliia Member Posts: 305 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Gems. They're at 400gp or so on Meropis in the comm shop, and the lowest is selling at 190gp on the comm market. In fact, there are no gems on the market selling at or over 400gp. 
    Lisbethae
  • SiduriSiduri Member Posts: 1,405 @ - Epic Achaean
    Nataliia said:
    Gems. They're at 400gp or so on Meropis in the comm shop, and the lowest is selling at 190gp on the comm market. In fact, there are no gems on the market selling at or over 400gp. 
    Yes, because the stock is at zero, like all other mineable comms. And this is why denizen shops no longer establish floor prices save for leather, lacquer, rope and wood.

    image
  • KryptonKrypton shi-KhurenaMember Posts: 1,971 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    And cloth.
    (Mhaldor): Herenicus says, "Apologies, I am in-and-out of hold with Verizon wireless customer service."
    Siduri
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 3,646 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Doing my calculations. If I refined and sold off my last haul of gems I could price them at 80g per and still turn a profit.
    SiduriAerek
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 3,975 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Skye said:
    That's because if it goes any lower, the miners would be selling at a loss. And the reason why this is happening for a lot of things (like platinum) is because there's a terrible excess of commodities. This was not an issue when comms were a denizen generated thing, there was a fixed price threshold. Now if there's any threshold it would be the amount of money you had to funnel into digging all this stuff out of the ground. If this means that commodities are (unfortunately) going to be more expensive, then that's the uncomfortable reality to live with.

    Btw refined platinum is going for 109 per right now and at least half of it is under 150. I'm pretty sure people paid more for that buying from Blackrock when/if they needed it. So I'm not sure where you get this idea that it's 'priced to not sell'. The stuff is unspeakably slow and expensive to mine and the demand is abysmally low. Regardless, low demand doesn't automatically equate to double digit selling prices, sellers still have their overheads to consider. 
    No, it's because the majority of stock is priced at 50-500% more.

    Take coal for example:

    About 41k for sale at decent pricing (25g or lower)

    250k+ for sale at 100g or more.

    Platinum at 109 is still making a lot of gold unless you happened to take a small lode. I get the idea that it's "priced to not sell" because while there is 5k available at 109, there's 13,621 priced at 150g or more, with 1.9k at 444 per. 80% of the platinum stock is priced 20% higher than the current lowest price, with 50% of it priced 40% or more higher.

    So yeah, most of platinum is priced to not sell. I'm not sure what you're not understanding.


    Siduri
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 3,646 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It could very possibly that these prices that are so insultingly high are from the early stages of mining where lodes of everything were abundant and the cost to mine them were ridiculously high. Not every move is an intentional attempt fuck over the market.

    To your suggestion of only having being able to drop Comms in rifts and on the market. This will only make people walk around with 50k Comms in their inventories instead. 

    I think all that really needs done is to fix the bug of returning Comms from the market. At the moment everything sits on there indefinitely and that may be why we are seeing the bigger prices because they reflect a market trend long passed.
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 3,975 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Having less available for sale (when all the dormant people comms are taken off the market) will increase prices, not decrease them. Supply goes down, demand stays the same, price goes up.

  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 3,646 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    What do you think will happen with your 5%-10% of lowest current price idea? People 'pricing not to sell' will charge 10% over. All the cheaper stuff will go making those higher amounts the norm. Rinse and repeat.

    We are getting conflicting problems here. Some Comms people are undercutting and selling at obvious lose. However some people are pricing at what is considered ridiculous prices. Whatever fix goes in, if one does, will have to take into account both.
    TreyLisbethaeSiduri
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