Welcome to the Achaea Forums! Please be sure to read the Forum Rules.

Classlead reports september 2016

BleakBleak Member Posts: 350 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

2 things that I am very happy about.


Report #43
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submitted by: You Status : Approved Priority : -2
Skill : Crystalism Ability : Retardation
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem:
Retardation is currently used in group combat in combination with totems and room wide attacks to completely demolish an incoming party. It is extremely hard to get rid of the mage without a monk using mind radiance, since out of room attacks are stopped by retardation. And since the abundance of earrings of sinope leaving an area for a few seconds is no problem anymore. This makes it an extremely powerful ability that severly limits the incoming party in what they can do to defend during a raid. This also makes it a very boring game-mechanic to deal with.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Solution #1:
make retardation prevent runewardens to stand a totem.
Solution #2:
make it possible to use out of room attacks like snipe on the magi that cast the retardation.
Solution #3:
retardation a very short timer and limit its use. It should be strong enough to keep it feasible in 1v1 combat, but it should be discouraged to use in group combat.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Decision:
Probably not these solutions, but I might look at the quake font power.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


And this one:


Report #19
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Submitted by: Anonymous Status : Approved Priority : -2
Skill : Telepathy Ability : Radiance
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem:
Using Telepathy for raid defence and offence is a risk-free and highly effective endeavour that is extremely uninteresting for the receiving end.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Solution #1:
Limit telepathy to a 5 room radius, or line of sight.
Solution #2:
Increase willpower cost exponentially the further away from the target you are.
Solution #3:
Limit Radiance to a 5 room radius, or line of sight.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Decision:
I will add some more reasonable counterplay options, though it won't be anything as drastic as this or classlead 68. I will also possibly upgrade radiance to compensate depending. Stay tuned!


Less happy about 54 and 92. 

TydasExelethril
«1345

Comments

  • TydasTydas Member Posts: 232 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Report #39
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Submitted by: You Status : Approved Priority : 2
    Skill : Shindo Ability : Burst
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Problem:
    Blademasters are basically useless in the vast majority of raid encounters these days. Most attacks
    are done at range, and most classes have tools or abilities that allow them to do so. Very few
    classes do not, and those that do not possess those abilities have other useful raid functions, such
    as the ability to lay Rites or Harmonics, the latter even being moved into adjacent rooms.
    Blademasters tend to sit around doing little else than blocking and acting as the party mindnet,
    except for the very rare instances an enemy ends up in the same room where all classes are on equal
    footing. While Blademaster's don't need incredible range utility, they need at least something to
    help them contribue from even a small distance.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Solution #1:
    Allow Shin Burst to target an adventurer in an adjacent room, much in the way Shaman's Anthius
    spirit functions.
    Solution #2:
    Solution 1, but with the addition that attacking adjacent adventurers requires a small amount of
    Shin power, which can be built up Striking allies.
    Solution #3:
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Decision:
    Not these, but I think we will add something to give blademasters some raiding flare.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    So incredibly happy this is finally happening. Looking forward to seeing what we get, I'm tired of feeling useless 95% of the time in raids.
    BannAsmodron
  • DunnDunn The great Buffalo tundraMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,286 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm honestly confused why a scald nerf wasn't approved. A mage can literally scald > transfix next balance because you need to stay unblind to cure scald. You can just do this on a loop and get a free hit on a transfixed target before they writhe. This kills all momentum. 

    @Makarios


    Aerek
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 3,964 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I assumed that was the entire point. You either let them get their parry bypass from scald or they transfix when you try to cure it and bypass parry that way. Basically, if you don't want to get constantly transfixed, don't cure scald at all and just deal with not being able to parry. I think Magi limb damage needs to be looked at (i.e. it might break too quickly) given how easily it now bypasses parry, but I don't think the scald mechanics necessarily need changing.
    Farrah
  • DunnDunn The great Buffalo tundraMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,286 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2016
    And what I'm saying is that that's a shit decision to have to make.

    I could see the damage being lowered. Right now it takes 6.6 hits to break, with air being .6 and everything else at 1. If they're going to get free parry bypass (I'm not gonna eat transfix every round), it should be a longer prep time, which is why I leaded lowered limb damage under scald. 


    AerekExelethril
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 3,964 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ah, wasn't sure exactly which of the multiple scald classleads we were discussing. Agreed that the limb damage needs to come down.
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,047 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2016
    Not sure why it's a problem. Knights have the exact same mechanic by burying illness under other afflictions. Just walk away, cure scald. Magi limb prep takes 6 hits to prep anyway, which can be hindered a lot by rebounding/active hinder. Magi prep already got nerfed twice. It definitely doesn't need to come down more, especially when ever other class (except perhaps snb) preps much faster. Also with the pummel change, we'll have to prep torso as well, making it longer to execute... no more 1-leg-and-done finishers

    I'm a bit worried about classlead 43, because if it's implemented the wrong way, we'l just see the return of lolautosnipe squads
  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,343 Achaean staff
    Dunn said:
    I'm honestly confused why a scald nerf wasn't approved. A mage can literally scald > transfix next balance because you need to stay unblind to cure scald. You can just do this on a loop and get a free hit on a transfixed target before they writhe. This kills all momentum. 

    @Makarios

    I'm not opposed to scald changes, but it'll need to wait on the pummel ones to see how things pan out. That'll affectively double prep time for the freeze route (or increase it by 50% if they're going for 2 limb pummels). Obviously, those changes if necessary won't half to wait for another classlead round, so I'd not worry too much about it.


    Dunn
  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,343 Achaean staff
    Aegoth said:
    Not sure why it's a problem. Knights have the exact same mechanic by burying illness under other afflictions. Just walk away, cure scald. Magi limb prep takes 6 hits to prep anyway, which can be hindered a lot by rebounding/active hinder. Magi prep already got nerfed twice. It definitely doesn't need to come down more, especially when ever other class (except perhaps snb) preps much faster. Also with the pummel change, we'll have to prep torso as well, making it longer to execute... no more 1-leg-and-done finishers

    I'm a bit worried about classlead 43, because if it's implemented the wrong way, we'l just see the return of lolautosnipe squads

    Have some faith.
    BlujixapugShirszaeAntidas
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,047 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    my faith in you is eternal, Mak. My faith in Eleusis is not
    Borran
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAMember Posts: 2,745 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Here's hoping the karma stuff actually gets some love this round... :grimace:
    image
  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,343 Achaean staff
    Jinsun said:
    Here's hoping the karma stuff actually gets some love this round... :grimace:

    Yeah, we'll definitely do something this round. I admittedly hadn't factored the fact that we have killed off a fair few big karma holding denizens lately into previous decisions, so was working with fairly outdated numbers.

  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAMember Posts: 2,745 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think one of my bigger beefs is there seems to be a fairly sizable rng chance for the items to just crumble before completely studied. I've done karma runs that would normally max me out twice over only to have each one crumble and me be looking at 40% karma wanting to go full Cain
    image
    Josoul
  • BleakBleak Member Posts: 350 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Aegoth said:
    I'm a bit worried about classlead 43, because if it's implemented the wrong way, we'l just see the return of lolautosnipe squads

    I love our snipe squad, but I understand why they suck for others. The problem with your current setup is that when you+Proficy raid, entering your room without wiping our entire team is super hard. We've been trying all kinds of stuff, but so often we hit a totem+retardation. After that it's only a matter of tramping+some holo's to seal the deal. Nobody can cure out of that quick enough. 

    The concequence is that we just spam ranged stuff, hoping not engaging will cause you to leave. This is really boring. It's way more fun to rush in and have a massive melee fight. 
  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 1,195 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2016
    Aegoth said:
    Not sure why it's a problem. Knights have the exact same mechanic by burying illness under other afflictions. Just walk away, cure scald. Magi limb prep takes 6 hits to prep anyway, which can be hindered a lot by rebounding/active hinder. Magi prep already got nerfed twice. It definitely doesn't need to come down more, especially when ever other class (except perhaps snb) preps much faster. Also with the pummel change, we'll have to prep torso as well, making it longer to execute... no more 1-leg-and-done finishers

    I'm a bit worried about classlead 43, because if it's implemented the wrong way, we'l just see the return of lolautosnipe squads
    Nausea requires momentum whereas the objection to scald is basically that it doesn't. They aren't by any means "the exact same mechanic." But comparing dissimilar classes is always pointless. What knights do or don't have has no bearing on whether scald/magi prep are appropriate. Completely different classes.

    Staffstrike can't miss, right? Magi seems to be hindered a lot less than other prep classes that can frequently miss or be dodged, in addition to the no-momentum ez parry bypass, which I think contributes to its really fast prep.

    I'm not saying it's necessarily over the top though. Just that it (the prep) -is- pretty unstoppable/not slowable and quick now.
    AerekFinkleDunn
  • KeorinKeorin Member Posts: 311 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I'm not really sure what you're supposed to do against a 2h knight that auto follows off of falcon glance. At some point when fighting them, running is simply a necessity, given the impossibility of tanking their damage output and the lack of options like parry or priority switching that exist against other classes. And even getting out for a moment isn't effective, like it is for most other momentum classes, you have to get away and stay away. And on top of this, they get limb prep, too. Reliable autofollowing combined with the inevitable torn tendons makes this rather impossible, as if tendons proc even once, then the knight is likely to be able to catch up.

    I'd thought that part of the point of removing falcon WALK TO in the last round was to tone this down, but if they're supposed to be able to have a balanceless detection of the enemy's location, like classlead 114's effective rejection suggests, then we've got the same thing as before, just with a higher coding requirement.

    So what am I missing? I feel like I'm probably overlooking something, unless buying defensive artifacts is intended to be the only realistic option.
  • DunnDunn The great Buffalo tundraMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,286 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Any class can have autofollowing with squint tho. 


  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,343 Achaean staff
    Keorin said:
    I'm not really sure what you're supposed to do against a 2h knight that auto follows off of falcon glance. At some point when fighting them, running is simply a necessity, given the impossibility of tanking their damage output and the lack of options like parry or priority switching that exist against other classes. And even getting out for a moment isn't effective, like it is for most other momentum classes, you have to get away and stay away. And on top of this, they get limb prep, too. Reliable autofollowing combined with the inevitable torn tendons makes this rather impossible, as if tendons proc even once, then the knight is likely to be able to catch up.

    I'd thought that part of the point of removing falcon WALK TO in the last round was to tone this down, but if they're supposed to be able to have a balanceless detection of the enemy's location, like classlead 114's effective rejection suggests, then we've got the same thing as before, just with a higher coding requirement.

    So what am I missing? I feel like I'm probably overlooking something, unless buying defensive artifacts is intended to be the only realistic option.

    I'll be honest, the real major motivation for nerfing walk to denizens was actually not the falcon thing. It was that it was a free way to basically locate an ent using class from across the world once you had an entity ID number. The autofollowing thing is definitely an issue, but I'm always wary of nerfing stuff like this in the name of balance when it'll likely just be inconvenient and most people will find workarounds regardless (like squint, doppleganger seek for occultist, etc). Basically, there are just some battles not worth fighting and its better to target the root cause, such as two handed doing too much damage, etc.

    Zulah
  • KeorinKeorin Member Posts: 311 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    But in most cases I don't have to run down a straightaway, or I can change elevation, or something like that. Those are at least options.
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 3,904 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Bleak said:
    Aegoth said:
    I'm a bit worried about classlead 43, because if it's implemented the wrong way, we'l just see the return of lolautosnipe squads

    I love our snipe squad, but I understand why they suck for others. The problem with your current setup is that when you+Proficy raid, entering your room without wiping our entire team is super hard. We've been trying all kinds of stuff, but so often we hit a totem+retardation. After that it's only a matter of tramping+some holo's to seal the deal. Nobody can cure out of that quick enough. 

    The concequence is that we just spam ranged stuff, hoping not engaging will cause you to leave. This is really boring. It's way more fun to rush in and have a massive melee fight. 
    There is a font power for propped totems. 

  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 3,726 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You have to use rebounding, it's not an option vs 2h.

    Falcon glance should be balanceless, and not usable off balance. Which means they have to do falcon glance at the beginning of every alias, movement etc etc. It's a work around that isn't really all that different than farsee/scry > autowalk, just slightly faster. Though, it won't be as accurate as the falcon doesn't follow immediately on entry, so you could falcon glance an empty room.

    I think 2h is in the position of 'it might be too strong, but nerfing X, X, X, all make it way weaker' which makes it hard to balance.

    Does Carve kill shield and rebounding on use, but no damage/venom? You may be required to break your own momentum to use shield/rebounding stacking to help with the damage/fracture stacks.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • DunnDunn The great Buffalo tundraMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,286 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2016
    Carve kills both at once (* need validation on this point) and does damage/venom if you use a sword, iirc. Can also proc runeblades for runy on carve. 

    * now that I think about it, if one barrier is up, it'll kill that barrier and deliver damage/venom. If two barriers, I think it just kills both without damage/venom. 


  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,047 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think carve kills shield and does damage. Not sure if it adds fractures
  • DunnDunn The great Buffalo tundraMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,286 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It does not do anything for fractures. 


    Aegoth
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 3,726 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2016
    Carve on reboudning only > damage venom
    Carve on shield only > damage venom
    Carve on stack > strip defs, no damage, no venom

    If this isn't how it works now, it should.

    @Makarios ?


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • PuxiPuxi Member Posts: 235 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I'm not going to pretend I know much about combat at this point, but from my limited knowledge and experience, Puppetry (fashioning) is an extremely bland mechanic. Do others feel the same way or am I just doing it wrong?
  • KeorinKeorin Member Posts: 311 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Carve hits like a truck if you don't manage to time your shield+rebounding together, and even then it's possible for the knight to upset and grab some skull fractures off of it a good chunk of the time, which kills any defensive progress that might have gotten made. 

    There's a significant difference between glance and most other detection methods. If you're constantly running, farsee gives you at least a three room headstart, and will only report your general location, as you'll be somewhere else by then. Falcon glance is at most one room inaccurate, and even then only for a split second, and it allows you to not just move to where your opponent was, but to constantly update where you're walking to. 

    I do think it's good that 2h knights have a more powerful tracking tool then farsee, to be clear, but glance in it's current option seems to make running ineffective if tendons proc a single time.
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 3,964 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    That is how it works. It strips both rebounding and shield if the target has both, otherwise it strips whichever defence they have and deals (probably too much) damage (and a venom, if you're using a bastard sword). It doesn't advance fracture stacks, but if you're already not applying health because you're almost dead that's not really an issue for them.

    Shield/rebounding is only an issue for two-handed if they hit it, and given how long the balance times are on two-handed attacks, they generally have plenty of time to react to it going up. Using Carve when they have neither defence fails completely, I think, but since you can't strip your own shield while off equilibrium that doesn't really help you. Illusioning one or the other and getting them to attempt a Carve that fails would help a bit, but only if you can illusion.

  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 3,726 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Right, but you have to take into consideration the opposite.

    If the 2h can't get to you quickly, how do they ever kill someone that runs 10 rooms away and loops restore to cure all fractures - every 10s?

    It's a momentum class, not a prep class. The limb prep that it has is a side effect and there to add some small ways to keep people in the room (break>prone before you blow fractures). It's not there to break both legs then build momentum and hope you can devestate before they run.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,813 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Carve/Splinter will deal damage through Shield -OR- Rebounding and break them. If you have both up at the same time, it will break both, but not deal damage. It adds no fractures, but it deals "full" damage (equivalent to a Speed-stance Hew/Pulverise) at a 1.9s balance, which is a 30% DPS boost for them every time they use it. If you're artefacted and have lots of health to absorb that extra damage, then yes, rebounding and shield are viable ways to slow fractures since you can take the extra punishment; but for "small" people like Keorin, using rebounding runs a very high risk of dying to damage regardless of fractures. I'm at 5k health, and I still die to damage more than I do to fracks, even in Runewarden.

    I think 2H's real issue is just that 4.5s is just too long to cure a fracture. Like Keorin said, to survive 2H, you have to escape the 2H'er, (often) and then STAY away for 18-30s to cure 4-6 fracks. Restore exists to cut this time down, but you can't use Restore in the presence of reliable auto-following, (WALKTO or otherwise) because being off-EQ for 3s means they find you, start hitting again, and you're back at square 1. I've thought that perhaps things would feel better if applying health was a shorter balance than sipping, maybe 3s, but I haven't done any serious number crunching to see how that play out.

    I'm not unsympathetic to 2H, I know from experience that foes with high health, high damage resistance, or who can easily escape are real challenges, so we can't go nerfing this and that or they become non-viable at the high tiers. It just feels like there's no middle ground with them. They struggle hard with the foes who are naturally tough against them, and they steamroll everyone else.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    Keorin
  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 1,195 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Keorin said:
    Carve hits like a truck if you don't manage to time your shield+rebounding together, and even then it's possible for the knight to upset and grab some skull fractures off of it a good chunk of the time, which kills any defensive progress that might have gotten made. 

    There's a significant difference between glance and most other detection methods. If you're constantly running, farsee gives you at least a three room headstart, and will only report your general location, as you'll be somewhere else by then. Falcon glance is at most one room inaccurate, and even then only for a split second, and it allows you to not just move to where your opponent was, but to constantly update where you're walking to. 

    I do think it's good that 2h knights have a more powerful tracking tool then farsee, to be clear, but glance in it's current option seems to make running ineffective if tendons proc a single time.

    Have you tried timing mind disrupt with their balance regain?

    Usually you have to find your class's defensive strengths and play to them. As monk, you don't hinder while you prep, so you are going to have to play defensively - particularly when you're super squishy.
«1345
Sign In to Comment.