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Language Translation

ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
edited October 2014 in The Golden Dais of Creation

I was wondering if there are currently any language translation scripts out there yet.

If not, I was considering tinkering with some of Mudlet's (lua's) operating system interface stuff and incorporating an online language translating service (likely Google or Bing).

In general, the idea would be that you could have complete or partial (albeit probably a little laggy) translation of your main mudlet window, or simply certain things like tells and channels translated, for people who are more comfortable using their first language.

Anyone heard of such a thing, or think that might be useful for anyone?

inb4 anyone asks - no I am not considering charging for this XD.

"Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


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      Oceana

      Comments

      • SiduriSiduri Posts: 1,479Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Don't want to shoot you down, @Ernam, but automated translations that seem even slightly reasonable is nigh impossible.

        (Google's grasp of linguistics is tenuous at best, even for very simple languages like Latin)

        Though I suppose it can still be better than nothing at all, depending of how it's used.

        image
        TharvisSharaExelethrilUlrike
      • ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
        edited October 2014

        It really depends on the language, but you're definitely right about some.

        It really wouldn't be that difficult of a project, so I might just try whipping it up to see how it handles.

        Might also try running a few dozen sentences by some bi-lingual volunteers (any volunteers??) to get a bearing on exactly how good / useful something like this would be.

        In general, I'm only really shooting for conversation/immersion, not like, real-time translation for combat - just to be clear.  (that'd be much better handled with static triggers anyhow)

        "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


              Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
            Siduri
          1. SiduriSiduri Posts: 1,479Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
            @Ernam:

            No problem, I'll proofread French anyday.

            image
            Ernam
          2. SenaSena Posts: 3,920Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
            I've tried playing games and reading books using machine translations before, it's a huge pain. For something slow-paced where you can take the time to figure out what the translation is actually supposed to be (which can often take some research), it's workable, but for something like Achaea where the text is going by quickly and requires fast responses, it's pretty much useless.

            Something that could be useful though is being able to look up or translations/definitions of specific words and phrases. For example, right click a word or highlight a phrase and there will be an option in the context menu to check the meaning.
            SybillaSiduriEilonaUlrike
          3. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

            A dictionary / translation system in Mudlet would be quite simple, and probably already exists, but I'll look into it as an alternative if this doesn't pan out well.

            @Siduri, and anyone else interested, just go to one or more of the following: 

            Google Translate (https://translate.google.com/)
            Bing Translate (http://www.bing.com/translator/
            Reverso (http://www.reverso.net/text_translation.aspx?lang=EN)

            And copy/paste a big chunk of a HISTORY CLT / HT / CT into it, and check out how well it does on every day normal conversation.  Maybe a 1-10 out of 10 rating on how well it works would be really great.

            Will get my girlfriend on Japanese and Korean (although I am unsure of Mudlet's ability to use non-roman character sets).

            "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


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              1. SiduriSiduri Posts: 1,479Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                - 2014/10/29 13:54:44 - Ijen says, "Hail."
                - 2014/10/29 14:03:06 - Yen says, "Hi, city."
                - 2014/10/29 14:03:15 - Patria says, "Greetings, Yen."
                - 2014/10/29 14:03:53 - Tatsuki says, "Greetings, Yen!"
                - 2014/10/29 14:18:48 - Harag says, "Where can i find an acorn."
                - 2014/10/29 14:18:59 - Kyttin says, "In the pixie area."
                - 2014/10/29 14:35:44 - Ernam says, "Everyone hanging in there?"
                - 2014/10/29 14:35:48 - Yen says, "Mmm hmm."
                - 2014/10/29 14:36:06 - Tatsuki says, "I was just killed by a gnoll, but am back on my 
                feet again."
                - 2014/10/29 14:36:38 - Wilian says, "Doing quite well, how are you Ernam??"
                - 2014/10/29 14:36:53 - Ernam says, "Standing my ground."
                - 2014/10/29 14:37:10 - Siduri says, "Well, they -did- blow up the bridge, not the gate."
                - 2014/10/29 14:37:21 - Siduri says, "So seems like you're doing your job right."
                - 2014/10/29 14:37:42 - Siduri says, "Be well, Targossas."
                - 2014/10/29 14:37:49 - Yen says, "Bye, Siduri."
                - 2014/10/29 14:41:42 - Ernam says, "Can't be here -all- the time."
                - 2014/10/29 14:42:00 - Ernam says, "Nor can people with the ability to dismantle tanks, 
                either, apparently."
                - 2014/10/29 14:44:39 - Caoimhaen says, "Yeah.."
                - 2014/10/29 15:14:43 - Anedhel says, "Most of the current 4-5's were promoted to that."
                - 2014/10/29 15:14:44 - Anedhel says, "Mis."
                [Type MORE if you wish to continue reading. (97% shown)]
                more
                [File continued via MORE]
                - 2014/10/29 15:16:30 - Tigranes says, "The Orrery is not yet focused, but I have done my 
                part."

                FRENCH
                - 29/10/2014 13:54:44 - Ijen dit, "Je vous salue." 
                (I greet you)
                - 29/10/2014 14:03:06 - Yen dit: «Salut, ville." 
                (Hi, city)
                - 29/10/2014 14:03:15 - Patria dit: «Bonjour, Yen." 
                (Hello ,Yen)
                - 29/10/2014 14:03:53 - Tatsuki dit: «Bonjour, Yen!" 
                (Hello, Yen)
                - 29/10/2014 14:18:48 - Harag dit: «Où puis-je trouver un gland." 
                (Where can I find an acorn?)
                - 29/10/2014 14:18:59 - Kyttin dit: «Dans le domaine de lutin." 
                (In the elf's demesne)
                - 29/10/2014 14:35:44 - ERNAM dit: «Tout le monde accroché là-dedans?" 
                (Everybody hanged in there?) <- You wish our deaths, I knew it!
                - 29/10/2014 14:35:48 - Yen dit, "Mmm hmm." 
                - 29/10/2014 14:36:06 - Tatsuki dit: «Je suis juste tué par un gnoll, mais je suis de retour sur ma 
                pieds. "
                (I am killed by a gnoll, but I am back on my /feminine/ foot)
                - 29/10/2014 14:36:38 - Wilian dit: «Faire bien, comment vas-tu ERNAM ??" 
                (Do good, and how are you doing, Ernam??)
                - 29/10/2014 14:36:53 - ERNAM dit: «Debout ma terre." 
                (Standing on my earth)
                - 29/10/2014 14:37:10 - Siduri dit: «Eh bien, ils -did- sauter le pont, pas de la porte." 
                (Oh well, they -untranslated- jump the bridge, not of the door)
                - 29/10/2014 14:37:21 - Siduri dit, "semble donc que vous faites votre travail correctement." 
                (It seems you are doing your work correctly)
                - 29/10/2014 14:37:42 - Siduri dit: «Soyez bien, Targossas." 
                (Be well, Targossas)
                - 29/10/2014 14:37:49 - Yen dit, "Bye, Siduri." 
                (Bye, Siduri)
                - 29/10/2014 14:41:42 - ERNAM dit: «Vous ne pouvez pas être ici -TOUTES- le temps." 
                (You cannot be here -all- /feminine/ the time)
                - 29/10/2014 14:42:00 - ERNAM dit: «On ne peut les personnes ayant la capacité de démanteler les réservoirs, soit, apparemment ". 
                (We cannot the people having the ability to dismantle the tanks /as in water tanks/, be, apparently)
                - 29/10/2014 14:44:39 - Caoimhaen dit, "Ouais .." 
                (Yeah)
                - 29/10/2014 15:14:43 - Anedhel dit: «La plupart du courant de 4-5 était promue à ce." 
                (Most of the current /as in electricity/ of 4-5 was promoted to this /French expects a complement here/)
                - 29/10/2014 15:14:44 - Anedhel dit, "Mis". 
                - 29/10/2014 15:16:30 - Tigrane dit: «Le planétaire est pas encore concentré, mais je l'ai fait de mon 
                partie. "
                (The orrery is not yet focused, but I have done it by my part)

                image
                UlrikeOceana
              2. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

                Dear lord.  Was just hoping for a ?/10 rating, but that's even better.

                Dreams shattered.

                "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                      Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                    SybillaUlrike
                  1. ExelethrilExelethril Posts: 3,213Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    Synonyms are the bane of Google Translate, hrrngh.

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                  2. ShibumiShibumi Posts: 223Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                    @Sybilla Yeah. Google Translator does not work well at all. Are you Italian? 
                    Light prevails, always
                  3. SybillaSybilla LondonPosts: 503Member
                    Shibumi said:
                    @Sybilla Yeah. Google Translator does not work well at all. Are you Italian? 
                    Yep. I've said it lots of times, we said hello in that Italian players thread you made :)
                    Ulrike
                  4. SartanSartan Posts: 121Member, Moderator Immortal
                    Idioms are also then bane of google translate! 
                    MishgulSharaUlrike
                  5. DaeirDaeir AustraliaPosts: 6,276Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    Anything beyond "I am a cat" is the bane of google translate.

                    Tried this for the online game I manage as my job - it was so laughably bad that we canned it after a day. Not before our users used it 50-60k times though. The entire chat was just filled with broken everything for 12-16 hours.

                    Machine translation is pretty useless.
                  6. EldEld Posts: 3,946Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    Idiots can make things difficult, too.
                  7. SaevaSaeva Posts: 1,927Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    Idioms are hard for any translation, google or from people! Most idioms in all languages just make people scratch their head in confusion when translated, even properly!
                    The common response seems to be "Why would you ever even say that?" hah
                    I dated a Palestinian who spoke veeeerry little English when I first met him. He's perfectly fluent now but there were so many days where I'd say something and have to explain myself to him, then he'd still look at me like I was insane.


                    ShirszaeTrilliana
                  8. SenaSena Posts: 3,920Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                    Daeir said:
                    Anything beyond "I am a cat" is the bane of google translate.
                    Even then it depends on the language. It often translates it to "I am not a cat" or "I was a cat", or "I have a cat", or "My cat".
                    UlrikeTrilliana
                  9. ShibumiShibumi Posts: 223Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
                    @Sybilla My bad. Mea culpa. Scusa. I simply forgot!

                    When I find an English word unknown to me, the Urban Dictionary on line comes very handy.
                    I do work and teach Legal English, which a very complex matter. Basically, I check four or five different sources before doing anything. I tried google translator for that purpose a couple times, out of curiosity. The result was horrible, both ITA/ENG or ENG/ ITA. I mean, GT's accuracy is lower than 15%. However, the GT came up with some very nice expressions quite surprisingly. 

                    On a personal level, I am against videogame localization. VG are a very useful tool to learn English. That's how I learned it back then: VG and D&D with WH40K as topping. Now italian students are too spoiled.

                    Anyway, I appreciate your technical effort @ernam, it could be useful to expand the playerbase.

                    Light prevails, always
                    SiduriUlrike
                  10. ErnamErnam Posts: 2,416Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

                    The dictionary thing is doable, the rest... evidently not.  Thanks for your inputs!


                    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


                          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
                      1. TibithaTibitha Posts: 742Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                        For my own amusement I decided to run Siduri's log through a simpler but more obscure language  :p

                        - 2014/10/29 13:54:44 - Ijen sê: "Ons groet." 
                        (We greet)
                        - 2014/10/29 14:03:06 - Yen sê: "Hi, stad." 
                        (Hi, city)
                        - 2014/10/29 14:03:15 - Patria sê: "Wees gegroet, Jen." 
                        (Be greeted, Jen.)
                        - 2014/10/29 14:03:53 - Tatsuki sê: "Wees gegroet, Jen!" 
                        (Be greeted, Jen!)
                        - 2014/10/29 14:18:48 - Harag sê, "Waar vind ek 'n akker." 
                        (Where do I find an acorn.)
                        - 2014/10/29 14:18:59 - Kyttin sê: "In die Pixie gebied." 
                        (In the <Pixie> /untranslated/ area)
                        - 2014/10/29 14:35:44 - Ernam sê, "Almal hang in there?" 
                        (Everyone <hang in there>? /untranslated/)
                        - 2014/10/29 14:35:48 - Yen sê: "Mmm hmm." 
                        (Mmm hmm.)
                        - 2014/10/29 14:36:06 - Tatsuki sê: "Ek het net vermoor deur 'n gnoll, maar is terug op my 
                        voete weer. "
                        (I have just murdered through a gnoll, but is back again on my feet.) :o
                        - 2014/10/29 14:36:38 - Wilian sê, "Doen baie goed, hoe is jy Ernam ??" 
                        (Doing very well, how are you Ernam?)
                        - 2014/10/29 14:36:53 - Ernam sê: "Staan my grond." 
                        (Stand my ground /Not a saying, so it just sounds weird :D/)
                        - 2014/10/29 14:37:10 - Siduri sê: "Wel, hulle -did- blaas die brug, en nie die hek." 
                        (Well, they "-did-" /untranslated/ blow the bridge, and not the gate.)
                        - 2014/10/29 14:37:21 - Siduri sê: "So lyk soos jy doen jou werk reg is." 
                        (So looks like you your work done right is)
                        - 2014/10/29 14:37:42 - Siduri sê: "Wees goed, Targossas." 
                        (Be good, Targossas)
                        - 2014/10/29 14:37:49 - Yen sê: "Bye, Siduri." 
                        (Bye, Siduri)
                        - 2014/10/29 14:41:42 - Ernam sê, "Kan hier nie -all- die tyd." 
                        (Can here not "-all-" /untranslated/ the time)
                        - 2014/10/29 14:42:00 - Ernam sê, "Ook kan mense met die vermoë om die tenks te breek, 
                        óf, blykbaar. "
                        (Also can people with the ability to break the tanks, or, apparently)
                        - 2014/10/29 14:44:39 - Caoimhaen sê: "Ja .." 
                        (Yes ..)
                        - 2014/10/29 15:14:43 - Anedhel sê: "Die meeste van die huidige 4-5's is bevorder tot dit." 
                        (Most of the current 4-5's is promoted to it)
                        - 2014/10/29 15:14:44 - Anedhel sê, "Mis". 
                        (Mis)
                        [Tik meer as jy wil om verder te lees. (97% getoon)] 
                        (Type more, if you want, to to read further. (97% shown))
                        meer 
                        (more)
                        [Lêer voortgesit via Meer] 
                        (File continued via More)
                        - 2014/10/29 15:16:30 - Tigranes sê: "Die Orrery is nog nie gefokus nie, maar ek gedoen het my 
                        deel ".
                        (The Orrery isn't focused yet, but I done have my part.)
                        SiduriUlrikeOceana
                      2. TarkorTarkor Posts: 14Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
                        Alright, here's the whole thing in German:

                        - 2014.10.29 13.54.44 - Ijen sagt: "Gegrüßet seist du."
                        Be greeted! (The biblical form, only used in psalms)

                        - 2014.10.29 14.03.06 - Yen sagt: "Hallo, Stadt."
                        Hello, city

                        - 2014.10.29 14.03.15 - Patria sagt: "Grüße, Yen."
                        - 2014.10.29 14.03.53 - Tatsuki sagt: "Grüße, Yen!"
                        Greetings, Yen

                         - 2014.10.29 14.18.48 - Harag sagt: "Wo finde ich eine Eichel."
                        Where can I find an acorn.

                        - 2014.10.29 14.18.59 - Kyttin sagt: "In der Pixie-Bereich."
                        In the (wrong gender) Pixie area.

                        - 2014.10.29 14.35.44 - ERNAM sagt: "Jeder hing da drin?"
                        Did everyone hang (literally) in there?

                        - 2014.10.29 14.35.48 - Yen sagt: "Mmm hmm."
                        - 2014.10.29 14.36.06 - Tatsuki sagt: "Ich war gerade von einem Gnoll getötet, aber bin wieder auf meinem
                        Füße wieder. "
                        I was (wrong tense) killed by a gnoll, but am again on my (singular) feet again.

                        - 2014.10.29 14.36.38 - Wilian sagt, "recht gut, wie geht es dir ERNAM ??"
                        quite good, how are you, ERNAM

                        - 2014.10.29 14.36.53 - ERNAM sagt: "Stehend meinen Boden."
                        standing my floor

                        - 2014.10.29 14.37.10 - Siduri sagt: "Nun, sie -did- sprengen die Brücke, das Tor nicht."
                        well, they (untranslated) blow up the bridge, not the gate.

                        - 2014.10.29 14.37.21 - Siduri sagt: "So scheint, wie Sie Ihre Arbeit richtig."
                        It seems, they their work right. (yes, something's missing)

                        - 2014.10.29 14.37.42 - Siduri sagt: "Seien Sie gut, Targossas."
                        Be well (wrong personal form) Targossas

                        - 2014.10.29 14.37.49 - Yen sagt: "Bye, Siduri."
                        - 2014.10.29 14.41.42 - ERNAM sagt, "nicht hier sein kann -alle- die Zeit."
                        can not be here (wrong person)  -all- the time

                        - 2014.10.29 14.42.00 - ERNAM sagt: "Auch können Menschen mit der Fähigkeit, Panzer zerlegen,
                        entweder, offenbar. "
                        Also humans can apparently either the ability to take apart tanks. (yes, this makes no sense)

                        - 2014.10.29 14.44.39 - Caoimhaen sagt: "Yeah .."
                        - 2014.10.29 15.14.43 - Anedhel sagt: "Die meisten der aktuellen 4-5 lagen die gefördert."
                        most of the current 4-5 layers the promoted.

                        - 2014.10.29 15.14.44 - Anedhel sagt: "Mis."
                        [Geben Sie mehr, wenn Sie weiter zu lesen möchten. (97% gezeigt)]
                        Give more, if you want to read on.

                        mehr
                        [Datei weiterhin über MEHR]
                        File furthermore about More

                        - 2014.10.29 15.16.30 - Tigranes sagt: "Der Orrery noch nicht konzentriert, aber ich getan habe meine
                        Teil. "
                        The (untranslated) not concentrated yet, but I done my (wrong gender) part.

                        LacertixOceana
                      3. KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesPosts: 5,718Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                        I can't remember who did it, but someone had put out a cypher like language script which allowed two people who had the script installed to talk back and forth and understand each other, but if they were talking in Says or someone listened in on their Tells, it would seem like a different language. I want to say it was not very successful based on what I read when it was posted, but I never tried it myself.


                      4. OceanaOceana Posts: 877Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                        I have not tried Bing translator before, so here goes an attempt to translate to Dutch.

                        -2014/10/29 13:54:44 - zegt Ijen, "Hail."
                        says Ijen, "Hail." (Hail is not Dutch). (Why isn't it: Ijen says?)

                        -2014/10/29 14:03:06 - yen zegt, "Hi, city."
                        Yen says, "Hi, city." (Hi and city aren't Dutch words) (says is in the right position here)

                        -2014/10/29 14:03:15 - zegt Patria, "Groeten, Yen."
                        says Patria, "Greetings, Yen."

                        -2014/10/29 14:03:53 - zegt Tatsuki, "Greetings, Yen!"
                        says Tatsuki, "Greetings, Yen."

                        -2014/10/29 14:18:48 - Harag zegt, "waar vind ik een eikel."
                        Harag says, "Where do I find an acorn."

                        -2014/10/29 14:18:59 - zegt Kyttin, "In the area pixie."
                        says Kyttin, "In the area pixie" (not Dutch and pixie after area?)

                        -2014/10/29 14:35:44 - zegt Ernam, "Iedereen opknoping daar?"
                        says Ernam, "Everyone hanging there?" (opknoping is a noun, not a verb)

                        -2014/10/29 14:35:48 - zegt yen, "Mmm hmm."
                        says yen, "Mmm hmm." (no capital letter for yen)

                        -2014/10/29 14:36:06 - Tatsuki zegt, "Ik werd slechts vermoord door eengnoll, maar ben terug op mijn
                        voeten weer."
                        Tatsuki says, "I was merely murdered by agnoll, but am back on my feet again."
                        (agnoll without space, merely is wrong)

                        -2014/10/29 14:36:38 - Wilian zegt, "doet het heel goed, how are youErnam?"
                        Wilian says, "works very well, how are youErnam?"
                        (not quite the right translation, youErnam without a space, and how are you isn't Dutch)

                        -2014/10/29 14:36:53 - zegt Ernam, "Standing mijn grond."
                        says Ernam, "Standing my ground." (Standing is not Dutch, or it is a noun meaning good social rank)
                        -2014/10/29 14:37:10 - Siduri zegt: "Nou, ze - - blazen-omhoog de brug,de poort niet."
                        Siduri says: "Well, they -- blow- upwards the bridge, the gate not."
                        (blow up translated as blow upwards, brug being in the wrong position)

                        -2014/10/29 14:37:21 - zegt Siduri, "Zo lijkt alsof u uw werk goed doet."
                        says Siduri, "So seems as if you do your work well."
                        (subject missing)

                        -2014/10/29 14:37:42 - Siduri zegt: "Nou, worden Targossas."
                        Siduri says:"Well, become Targossas"
                        (not quite right)

                        -2014/10/29 14:37:49 - zegt yen, "Bye, Siduri."
                        says yen, "Bye Siduri." (Bye isn't Dutch)

                        -2014/10/29 14:41:42 - zegt Ernam, "Kan niet hier - alle - de tijd."
                        says Ernam, "Can not here -all- the time."
                        (verb missing)

                        Ok, I guess that is enough. I would not use this unless in emergencies.
                      5. TaelTael Posts: 1,197Member @ - Epic Achaean
                        edited November 2014
                        Machine translation is a very, very, very hard problem.

                        Google Translate is an absolutely incredible piece of software, one of the best translation engines ever invented, and it's still pretty useless for something like this. Achaea is close to a worst-case scenario for machine translation - abnormal vocabulary, idiosyncratic words and phrases, most things you need translated are single lines (compare things like newspaper articles, where mistranslating a sentence isn't a huge problem since you can piece together the meaning from other sentences with better translation), and it's a completely different genre than what was likely used to train Google Translate (or any other machine translator).

                        If I were trying to do something like this, I would probably go with keeping the original text and putting in a function such that when you hover over a word, it pulls up an entry from a translation dictionary for the two languages, and then perhaps also shows a Google/Bing translation of the entire sentence too (machine translation isn't a good replacement for the text, but it can be a really helpful supplement). I don't know how doable that would be in Mudlet, but something like that would probably be your best bet.

                        As an aside, while machine translation systems do still struggle with synonyms to some degree, they're not actually so stupid that they're just trying to translate things word-for-word and then throw those words into something resembling a conventional syntax for the target language. Modern machine translation engines do have a number of features that make the synonym problem (and the idiom problem) significantly less dire than you might naively expect.

                        (I'm also really, really unsure where you got the idea that Latin is a "very simple language". That is preposterously mistaken.)
                      6. SiduriSiduri Posts: 1,479Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                        edited November 2014
                        @Tael : It might be a bit reductive, but it is actually a language that follows very hard-set rules, with a bit of mathematical beauty in its organization. It's something a machine could theoretically relate to, but said machine fails, hard, when confronted to declensions, who are otherwise easily recognized by the human brain.

                        P.S.: Also, note that I am French. My language contains exceptions and traps at every corner, unclear word roles (whereas Latin declensions outline immediately the place of the word in the sentence) and all that jazz. To me, it really does seem simpler.

                        image
                        Oceana
                      7. TaelTael Posts: 1,197Member @ - Epic Achaean
                        edited November 2014
                        @Siduri, I mean no offence, but: no (to most of that).

                        Latin is a language like any other. They may teach it as though it follows "hard-set rules" (though they teach most languages as though they follow hard-set rules, dead languages tend to get that treatment more than others), but it is just as crazy and exception-filled as any other natural language. It is generally the case that every language has about the same degree of complexity and idiosyncracy - it just shows up in different places in the grammar of different languages (which makes sense, since every language needs to be about equally expressive).

                        Actual syntactic ambiguity in French is not particularly more frequent than in other languages (I speak French too, though I'm not a native speaker). And, if anything, French syntax is pretty regular. Most of the time, grammatical function can be inferred from syntactic position, just like it can be inferred from case morphology in Latin (which, it should be pointed out, has a lot of ambiguity owing to phonologically overlapping case markers).

                        Both languages have ambiguity, tons of exceptions and traps at every corner, unclear word roles, etc.

                        Something to bear in mind in these discussions: There is a fun sociolinguistic observation that virtually every group of language speakers either thinks their language is the most logical, with the fewest exceptions or the least logical, with the most exceptions. French is a particularly fun one since it's flipped 180 degrees pretty recently - you don't have to go back far at all to find that the general attitude of the French toward their language was that it was perfectly logical, had no exceptions, and was in fact claimed to be the language most like formal logic (this is one of the reasons for the historical adoption of French in a lot of international organisations).

                        Additionally, declensions are actually a fairly easy problem to solve computationally. It is, in fact, significantly easier for a computer to deduce grammatical function from case than it is in languages that lack declension, where it has to be infered from syntax. Far from machines failing hard when faced with declension, machines love languages with declension. Morphology is a lot easier to parse than syntax.
                        SiduriJovolo
                      8. TaelTael Posts: 1,197Member @ - Epic Achaean
                        I also just realised this is in the Golden Dais...why is this in the Golden Dais?
                      9. AmarillysAmarillys Posts: 797Member @ - Epic Achaean
                        Because it was an idea?



                      10. SenaSena Posts: 3,920Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
                        It was an idea for an external script though, not for the game itself.
                        Tael
                      11. AmarillysAmarillys Posts: 797Member @ - Epic Achaean

                        The Golden Dais of Creation

                        Got an idea? Post it here!
                        To be fair, it just calls for ideas. Now, I'm not saying it should be here, just saying that's probably why :stuck_out_tongue:



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