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Artifact Blackjack

TanaeTanae Posts: 29Member

So I was looking at Jester and I think I would really enjoy it for hunting and combat eventually. I was wondering if there is a strong jester out there that could lend me their artifact blackjack or any other artifacts they want whenever I go hunting til I am able to afford my own artifacts?

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Comments

  • TeshaTesha Posts: 2,782Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You can't loan artifact weapons, but certain artifacts will help you a lot. They are:

    Critical pendants (Stygian > Blood > Fire)
    Strength gauntlets (Logosian > Aldar > Ogre)
    Sip rings (Logosian > Ceylonese > Mayan)
    Constitution girdle/belt (Aegis > Titans > Hunter's Belt)
    HP/Mana bracelet (Logosian > Ceylonese > Mayan)


     i'm a rebel

  • TanaeTanae Posts: 29Member

    Ohh I suppose I should delete this thread then. Thank you for the information!

  • TohranTohran Everywhere you don't want to be. I'm the anti-Visa!Posts: 331Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    I enjoyed being a Jester. Tesha's right on the other artefacts beyond the blackjack though. A shield of absorption would not go amiss either. 


    Shunsui
  • TanaeTanae Posts: 29Member
    Do either of you happen to know the stats of a jesters blackjack that they can summon?

  • SenaSena Posts: 3,821Member @@ - Legendary Achaean

    60/200/200 damage/to-hit/speed

    Tohran
  • TanaeTanae Posts: 29Member

    haha of course you would know sena shoulda just asked you from the start. as for the artifacts I was just looking those up and unless I get a very rich benefactor or rob a bank i don't think getting those are feasible sadly.

  • SeftinSeftin Posts: 923Member @ - Epic Achaean

    Artied jester hunting to me is the best in game. Tanky with SoA and slipperiness, con/sip ring etc - jester with level 3 blackjack, sip ring, pendant, soa and con arties to me is the tankiest bashing class, and I have been well.. all of them fully artied.


    I think artied jester bashing is just insane.

    ShunsuiTohranBluefXith
  • ApolinarioApolinario Posts: 23Member ✭✭ - Stalwart

    Seftin said:

    I think artied jester bashing is just insane.


    and you will never run out of endurance ever.   >:)

    image
    TohranSobriquet
  • TalysinTalysin Posts: 575Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    with the nerf to bop damage, there is only a marginal increase in damage done from non Artie blackjack to level 3. You will find your bops are faster, but that's it. As it stands, level 3 is useless.

    SobriquetBluefXith
  • NimNim Posts: 2,015Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Apparently the admins are cool with lending artefact weapons to potential buyers to test out, so try asking via ISSUE ME.
    Syri
  • PatroklosPatroklos Posts: 213Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I don't entirely agree with Talysin's statement here. The fact that the endurance cost is low, plus the fact that as you gain levels and possibly add a hunting pendent mean that you're critting more often in a smaller window. Granted, the DPS for me with having 14 str is just over dragon marginally, but those crits in small windows stack up.
  • TalysinTalysin Posts: 575Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Yes, faster bops make more DPS. Its frustrating that a level 3 artie has such a marginal increase in damage. and I mean marginal - 7 damage per artifact level.
    IsaiahBluef
  • SenaSena Posts: 3,821Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2014
    At trans pranks, the only change jesters got in the recent bashing overhaul is the damage being reduced by 6%. Artefact blackjacks weren't changed; they give exactly the same benefit they did before.

    There's only a slight difference in damage between stock and artefact blackjacks (just like before the bashing changes), but that doesn't mean artefact blackjacks are useless; artefact blackjacks for bashing are actually pretty overpowered at the moment (though not as overpowered as priests/bards/knights).

    Also, going from a stock blackjack to level 1 (300 credits) increases your DPS by about 20%, which is the same benefit as a level 3 collar (1600 credits) for magic-using classes. The only class that gets more benefit (in terms of bashing offense) from an artefact is priest.
  • CooperCooper IowaPosts: 4,098Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's +3 damage per level. Or an almost 10% increase in damage. Plus an almost 10% increase in speed.

    10% damage + 10% speed = a significant boost in bashing speed

  • BluefBluef DelosPosts: 2,176Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2014
    I understand how the formulas for this artefact are supposed to work, but anecdotal evidence is that speed aside (which in no way compares to some other classes still ) the damage with a Level 3 is pretty weak. It isn't an artefact I'd recommend straightaway to a new Jester anymore (I'd definitely start with a SoA, sip ring and crit pendant) because of that - and because even though these formulas exist the increase in damage feels marginal for the expense involved and many jesters just don't seem that thrilled with their Level 3 weapon anymore since the changes to runelore and bashing overall. 
    Cooper
  • SenaSena Posts: 3,821Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    In terms of actual damage, +3 to the damage stat is less than a 2% increase (because of the flat portion that doesn't scale with the damage stat). It really is pretty insignificant. The speed is the main benefit.
    Bluef
  • SenaSena Posts: 3,821Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2014
    Bluef said:
    I understand how the formulas for this artefact are supposed to work, but anecdotal evidence is that speed aside (which in no way compares to some other classes still ) the damage with a Level 3 is pretty weak. It isn't an artefact I'd recommend straightaway to a new Jester anymore (I'd definitely start with a SoA, sip ring and crit pendant) because of that - and because even though these formulas exist the increase in damage feels marginal for the expense involved and many jesters just don't seem that thrilled with their Level 3 weapon anymore since the changes to runelore and bashing overall. 
    I think you're underestimating how much of a difference the speed makes. Critical pendants don't come close, I'd take a level 1 blackjack over a level 3 crit pendant even if they were the same price. A level 1 blackjack is only 300 credits, and its benefit is comparable to 1600 credit artefacts for other classes (admittedly, those other artefacts are useful for PvP as well as bashing). The faster speed also helps defensively, by letting you run away (or shield, priestess, fool, whatever) more quickly if you need to, on top of killing things faster.

    And, again, the bashing changes didn't make artefact blackjacks less useful. The only thing that changed for jesters, aside from damage being reduced by 6% across the board at trans, is that they're even better than before compared to other classes. Artefact blackjacks were awesome before the bashing changes, and they're exactly the same now.
    BluefSobriquet
  • BluefBluef DelosPosts: 2,176Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sena said:
    Bluef said:
    I understand how the formulas for this artefact are supposed to work, but anecdotal evidence is that speed aside (which in no way compares to some other classes still ) the damage with a Level 3 is pretty weak. It isn't an artefact I'd recommend straightaway to a new Jester anymore (I'd definitely start with a SoA, sip ring and crit pendant) because of that - and because even though these formulas exist the increase in damage feels marginal for the expense involved and many jesters just don't seem that thrilled with their Level 3 weapon anymore since the changes to runelore and bashing overall. 
    I think you're underestimating how much of a difference the speed makes. Critical pendants don't come close, I'd take a level 1 blackjack over a level 3 crit pendant even if they were the same price. A level 1 blackjack is only 300 credits, and its benefit is comparable to 1600 credit artefacts for other classes (admittedly, those other artefacts are useful for PvP as well as bashing). The faster speed also helps defensively, by letting you run away (or shield, priestess, fool, whatever) more quickly if you need to, on top of killing things faster.

    And, again, the bashing changes didn't make artefact blackjacks less useful. The only thing that changed for jesters, aside from damage being reduced by 6% across the board at trans, is that they're even better than before compared to other classes. Artefact blackjacks were awesome before the bashing changes, and they're exactly the same now.
    Like I said, my evidence is purely anecdotal. I only know that I don't enjoy hunting on my jester anymore since the change.

    It seems like it takes far too long to kill anything of value even with my Level 3 Blackjack and other arties. Likewise, the speed barely seems legit for the expense when I take into account the much faster bashing is on my other characters, not to mention the slight increase in speed lost since I can no longer rune the thing.  

    Statistically it may be still a great artefact, but personal perception is often enjoyment, and I don't get a lot of joy when hunting as a jester anymore. 
  • SenaSena Posts: 3,821Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    What I don't get is that the bashing changes only made jester better compared to other classes (they're better than dragons now, with a L3 blackjack), and only marginally reduced their damage (most of the time you'll kill things in the same number of hits), so why does it feel worse? Jester was not really nerfed (except by the loss of weapon runes, but that hurt a lot of classes, it applies to normal blackjacks and not just artefacts, and most jesters didn't bother with weapon runes anyways).

    If you're comparing it to artied priest/knight/bard (and maybe serpent) bashing then I could see that, but that's because those classes are all as overpowered as artied jesters are. Monk, shaman, druid, sylvan, sentinel, occultist, apostate, alchemist, magi, blademaster, and even dragon (all fully artied) are all dwarfed by jester when it comes to offense.

    Just looking at the benefit you get from the blackjack compared to other classes' offensive artefacts (not comparing the classes themselves), a L1 blackjack (300 credits) is approximately equal to a L3 collar or knuckles (1600 credits) or a diadem (850 credits). No other artefact comes close to the benefit of a L3 blackjack (1000 credits, roughly a 47% DPS boost compared to a normal blackjack; better than a L3 collar and diadem combined) except a L3 mace for priests (which makes a bit more of a difference, but is also more expensive).
  • SobriquetSobriquet Posts: 1,624Member @@ - Legendary Achaean

    I'll agree with @Sena in that hunting as my Jester (Lvl 3 BJ) is now easier than in Dragonform. (My perception, no figures to back that up.) Mainly because of the speed and supporting elements like Priestess / Magician etc. The benefit in DF is the extra health and resistances, of course.

    But then, I used to bash in Jester before the changes anyway unless I wanted the easy route through Istarion while on the hunt for Elder Talisman pieces. 

    image
  • KaieKaie Posts: 158Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    If you're comparing a level 3 blackjack to a stock blackjack you might as well be comparing a wooden stick to a ripe banana. Stock blackjacks suck terribly. I wouldn't say artied Jester bashing is any better than other artied classes. Most of the artifacts listed are used by other classes as well with a higher damage output.  Sure you won't lose endurance, only your mind if you try taking advantage of that by bashing endlessly. When I toss artifacts out of the picture (because all classes are better with arties), it's not that impressive and I don't think the nerf was a good idea. If you want to bash, just go monk.. or don't trans pranks apparently. I've played around with several classes, jester is not at all my favorite for bashing and it's the only one i've artied up with. So, yeah.. I'd rather play an unartied class than my artied char for bashing. In my opinion I'd rather burn endurance and hit harder than be weaker and bash forever.
  • SenaSena Posts: 3,821Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2014
    Kaie said:
    If you're comparing a level 3 blackjack to a stock blackjack you might as well be comparing a wooden stick to a ripe banana. (1) Stock blackjacks suck terribly. (2) I wouldn't say artied Jester bashing is any better than other artied classes. (3) Most of the artifacts listed are used by other classes as well with a higher damage output.  Sure you won't lose endurance, only your mind if you try taking advantage of that by bashing endlessly. When I toss artifacts out of the picture (because all classes are better with arties), it's not that impressive and I don't think the nerf was a good idea. (4) If you want to bash, just go monk.. or don't trans pranks apparently. I've played around with several classes, jester is not at all my favorite for bashing and it's the only one i've artied up with. So, yeah.. I'd rather play an unartied class than my artied char for bashing. In my opinion I'd rather burn endurance and hit harder than be weaker and bash forever.
    1: Without arties, jesters are normal. They have almost exactly the same DPS as 9 of the 17 other classes, they have higher DPS than 3 classes, and worse DPS than 5 classes (counting dragon). The classes with worse offence than jester (comparing unartied) are: Blademaster (unless they can survive in Arash without slowing down their bashing), shaman (because it's not often you can get the full damage potential out of swiftcurse, since you have to wait for shields and move around to find more denizens), and monk (no conditions to this, monk simply has worse offense than a jester with a stock blackjack; monk is a lot better than jester defensively though).

    2: Then you're simply wrong. Artied jester DPS completely crushes artied alchemist, artied apostate, artied blademaster, artied druid, artied magi, artied monk, artied occultist, artied sentinel, artied shaman, and artied sylvan, and artied dragon. There's no room for interpretation there, jester damage and speed is far better than any of those 11 classes, if you have a level 2 or 3 blackjack.

    3: The classes with a higher damage output than artied jester are bard (with a level 3 rapier they have the same DPS as jesters, but they can get forged weapons that are much better), runewarden, infernal (only with very high-end rapiers, the kind that will cost you 100-200 credits), paladin (same as infernal, though inspiration helps a bit), artied priest, and artied serpent (only slightly better than jester). Those 6 classes (including jester) are all overpowered when it comes to bashing. Jester might be the least overpowered of those 6 classes; but at the same time, blackjacks are a lot cheaper than the arties for those other classes (except priest, maces are only slightly more expensive than blackjacks), so they don't have to spend as much to be overpowered.

    4: Offensively, monk is the second worst bashing class. They have other things to make up for their lack of offence, so they're not that bad overall, but they're far from the best.

    Edit: In response to your first line, the thing that started this discussion was Talysin saying that artefact blackjacks are useless, and Bluef agreeing. Your first point has been my main argument here, that artefact blackjacks make a huge difference.
    ZamoraNaverreJacenXith
  • TalysinTalysin Posts: 575Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Well I just got schooled by Sena. Im not sure why bashing feels so much worse, then. Perhaps I should complain less.
    Praxides
  • BluefBluef DelosPosts: 2,176Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2014
    Pretty sure I clarified my earlier agree to explain that blackjacks feel useless. My perception of jester bashing really hasn't changed and all the numbers in the Matrix quoted as stats won't change it because when I switch from my serpent, shaman, etc. character onto my jester and head out to bash I...just...want...to...QQ.
  • KaieKaie Posts: 158Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I agree that artifact blackjacks make a difference compared to stock blackjacks, however I don't agree with all of this information you just gave @sena. I'm not trying to be rude or what ever, but my take on things suggests different.

    First, I don't think monk is one of the worst bashing classes. I'd argue it's one of the best. It's base dps might be a low, but monks hit three times per combo, therefore getting three chances of critical hits. The chance of getting critical hits raises at higher levels and stacks with a crit pendant, human crit bonus, and crit bonus traits making monk a crit monster. This isn't even considering if the monk is str specced or owning str arties or knuckles. All of that coupled with that nice defense you mentioned. So, an artied monk should be destroying Jester in terms of bashing.

    Second I think your bard vs jester analysis is off. lvl3 rapiers have the same speed stat as a lvl3 blackjack with a higher damage stat, so if a jester and bard have the same stats and each a level3 weapon the bard should be doing more damage. Not to mention that bard also has a tuning that additionally damages, and which counts as a separate attack towards critical hits. The only thing in that sentence that I will agree with is the bit about getting even better forged weapons, but it'll be a while before that becomes a more expensive route than a lvl3 blackjack. I believe forged weapons last over 250 days? that's over half a year. So even if you buy them at 200cr a piece as bard, it'll be like 2 and a half years before you hit the 1000cr marker... 5 if you store it in a stasis container.

    I just don't think you factored everything in or how you reached this conclusion if you did.  Especially with spec builds. Most of the classes you've mentioned have a common spec build that allows their damage to scale higher for both pvp and pve, for example a str specced runewarden or str specced monk. Jester on the flipside is not a physical damage class for pvp, yet is for pve. So, the most common builds for jester are likely to be dex or con based in order to survive better. So, not much str to scale with unless you're the odd one out that went high str.

    Anyways, that's what I mean by sucky bashing... this overall experience when everything comes together. Also, I used to play a serpent for a while before Kaie got arties. I found the experiences to be pretty similar, with the exception that I can get different stats on a whip for garrote. This is before they buffed garrote mind you.
  • BukariinBukariin Posts: 438Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited September 2014
    Kaie said:
    I agree that artifact blackjacks make a difference compared to stock blackjacks, however I don't agree with all of this information you just gave @sena. I'm not trying to be rude or what ever, but my take on things suggests different.

    First, I don't think monk is one of the worst bashing classes. I'd argue it's one of the best. It's base dps might be a low, but monks hit three times per combo, therefore getting three chances of critical hits. The chance of getting critical hits raises at higher levels and stacks with a crit pendant, human crit bonus, and crit bonus traits making monk a crit monster. This isn't even considering if the monk is str specced or owning str arties or knuckles. All of that coupled with that nice defense you mentioned. So, an artied monk should be destroying Jester in terms of bashing.

    This is an utterly pointless argument to make, as critting on 1/2 or 1/4th of your damage does not increase your damage by 2x/4x/8x/etc (if I crit on a punch, for example, I'm only doing the equivalent of 1.25x my full combo).  Crits affect Jesters exactly the same as they affect Monks overall, the only difference being Jesters deal much more damage when they crit and Monks crit much more often. 

    Also, Sena doesn't contest that Monks have much better defensive potential than Jesters, if you read his whole post you'd actually see that, but I think you skimmed his concrete knowledge on the subject instead of trying to understand it.

    I just don't think you factored everything in or how you reached this conclusion if you did.  Especially with spec builds. Most of the classes you've mentioned have a common spec build that allows their damage to scale higher for both pvp and pve, for example a str specced runewarden or str specced monk. Jester on the flipside is not a physical damage class for pvp, yet is for pve. So, the most common builds for jester are likely to be dex or con based in order to survive better. So, not much str to scale with unless you're the odd one out that went high str.

    And why wouldn't you go STR/CON on a Jester?  Jesters aren't particularly mana-draining, don't have anything that scales with INT, and only get the same benefit from DEX as every other class, which is to say, extra avoidance.  You might as well complain that Tekura damage scales with STR when Mind Crush and Kai Choke scale with INT (I think), so other classes that only scale damage off one attribute can dump the other into DEX.  But you don't, which is why I think your arguments are particularly whiny and hypocritical.

  • KaieKaie Posts: 158Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @‌Bukariin Did you even read my post? I literally didn't say half of this and what are you even accusing me of in the end?
  • SenaSena Posts: 3,821Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kaie said:
    First, I don't think monk is one of the worst bashing classes. I'd argue it's one of the best. It's base dps might be a low, but monks hit three times per combo, therefore getting three chances of critical hits. The chance of getting critical hits raises at higher levels and stacks with a crit pendant, human crit bonus, and crit bonus traits making monk a crit monster. This isn't even considering if the monk is str specced or owning str arties or knuckles. All of that coupled with that nice defense you mentioned. So, an artied monk should be destroying Jester in terms of bashing.
    I didn't say that monk is the second worst bashing class overall (though they're not amazing, just good), only that they have the second worst offence. Although that claim isn't entirely straightforward; spoilered because this isn't really on-topic for the thread.
    Monk, blademaster, and shaman are definitely the bottom 3, but blademaster and shaman have unique reasons for that, blademaster requiring a frequently suicidal stance to reach normal DPS and shaman requiring a long period of uninterrupted attacking to take full advantage of swiftcurse in order to reach normal DPS, while monk is always below normal with no way to catch up even situationally, but they're better than non-arash blademaster or shaman without swiftcurse. So monk could be anywhere from the worst to the third worst, depending on how you look at it (personally, I would put blademaster as the worst, then monk, then shaman).

    As for the crit rate: Like Bukariin said, three times the crits (compared to a class that has one attack for the same balance as a combo) doesn't mean three times the damage. It does mean that the crits are spread out more, and smaller, more frequent crits mean less wasted damage, so it's definitely an advantage, but it's not a huge enough difference to give monk above average offence.
    Kaie said:
    Second I think your bard vs jester analysis is off. lvl3 rapiers have the same speed stat as a lvl3 blackjack with a higher damage stat, so if a jester and bard have the same stats and each a level3 weapon the bard should be doing more damage. Not to mention that bard also has a tuning that additionally damages, and which counts as a separate attack towards critical hits.
    The speed stat isn't the same, L3 rapiers have 228 and L3 blackjacks have 240, unless I'm missing something. Even ignoring that though, bop has an entirely different damage formula than jabbing with a songblessed rapier (songblessed rapiers are also different than normal rapiers, and each weapon type has its own damage formula), so you can't really compare them by just looking at the damage stat. Jester damage (before strength) is 282+2.82*DamageStat, while bard damage (before strength) is 144+3.2*DamageStat for the jab, then accentato is simply 25% of the damage jab did, for a total of about 180+4*DamageStat. Both use the same speed formula. So bard DPS with a L3 rapier at 12 str without nimble is about 221.31, and jester DPS with a L3 blackjack at 12 str without nimble is about 220.47.

    You're right about the costs though, bards only need one rapier and it doesn't have to be a 200 credit rapier, so bard is cheaper than jester unless they want a soulpiercer.
    Kaie said:
    Most of the classes you've mentioned have a common spec build that allows their damage to scale higher for both pvp and pve, for example a str specced runewarden or str specced monk. Jester on the flipside is not a physical damage class for pvp, yet is for pve. So, the most common builds for jester are likely to be dex or con based in order to survive better. So, not much str to scale with unless you're the odd one out that went high str.
    That's a good point. But even without str spec, they're just brought down to normal (artied jester without str spec is about the same DPS as most other artied classes), they're not actually bad. Still better than str specced artied monk (again, just comparing offence alone).


    When you compare the full class instead of just offence, it becomes a lot more complicated and subjective, so I wouldn't definitively claim that jester is one of the best bashing classes overall. If you strongly prefer defence and staying alive easily over killing things quickly, jester may even be one of the worst. But when you're talking about how good of a bashing attack bop is, or how much of a difference an artefact blackjack makes, or how quickly jesters can kill denizens, those are all easily quantifiable things without much room for interpretation.
  • EldEld Posts: 3,946Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Bukariin said:
    Kaie said:
    I agree that artifact blackjacks make a difference compared to stock blackjacks, however I don't agree with all of this information you just gave @sena. I'm not trying to be rude or what ever, but my take on things suggests different.

    First, I don't think monk is one of the worst bashing classes. I'd argue it's one of the best. It's base dps might be a low, but monks hit three times per combo, therefore getting three chances of critical hits. The chance of getting critical hits raises at higher levels and stacks with a crit pendant, human crit bonus, and crit bonus traits making monk a crit monster. This isn't even considering if the monk is str specced or owning str arties or knuckles. All of that coupled with that nice defense you mentioned. So, an artied monk should be destroying Jester in terms of bashing.

    Crits will have an effect, potentially a fairly large one, but I doubt it's as extreme as you seem to think; I don't know for sure either way. I would note, though, that pendants, human bonuses, and traits are all just as available to jesters as monks, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to count them as a bonus for monks specifically. I think what you might be saying is that those things also have more of an effect for monks because of the faster attacks, which is basically true, but will be a much smaller effect than the difference from the base crit rate. I'm fairly sure @Sena's numbers are assuming both classes str specced with all relevant arties (lvl 3 gauntlets for both, knuckles for the monk, lvl3 blackjack for the jester). Defense is hard to quantify, and how much it matters is pretty context dependent. I'd guess that for most bashing, a fully artied jester won't have too much trouble surviving, so the advantage of the monk's extra defense will be less. There will be times when it's important, it's just hard to compare objectively. Also, jester has a lot of utility from tarot that monks lack, so there's something of a trade-off there. Not trying to make a claim about which wins out overall on those fronts, just pointing out that anything beyond pure offensive capability gets very difficult to compare quantitatively. Don't know enough about bard to comment on that part, will let @Sena defend her numbers as she wishes.
    This is an utterly pointless argument to make, as critting on 1/2 or 1/4th of your damage does not increase your damage by 2x/4x/8x/etc (if I crit on a punch, for example, I'm only doing the equivalent of 1.25x my full combo).  Crits affect Jesters exactly the same as they affect Monks overall, the only difference being Jesters deal much more damage when they crit and Monks crit much more often. 
    There is actually a benefit to faster, weaker attacks at the same DPS when you factor in crits, in terms of overall bashing speed, i.e. mobs killed per unit time. It took me a while to convince myself of this, since as you point out, it's the same multiplier to DPS regardless of attack speed. One way to think about the difference is that with faster attacks, you're more likely to get a big enough crit to kill the mob. Another common statement of it is that with faster, weaker attacks, you lose less of your DPS to overkill; if your attack is strong enough that you kill most things you hunt on an 8x crit, then you get essentially no benefit from your annihilating and world-shattering crits (compared to oblits), while if your attack was half as strong and twice as fast, you'd get the full benefit of the annihilatings (still partially wasting the world-shatterings), and so on. I posted some numbers to do with that effect in the first post at http://forums.achaea.com/discussion/165/miscellaneous-maths-testing-ii/p5, if you're interested. As I noted there, though, there are enough variables that it's not simple to draw many broad conclusions.

    That said, while I haven't specifically run the numbers for monk combos versus single attacks, I suspect that the difference isn't nearly large enough to make up for the apparent difference between artied monk and artied jester dps. I wouldn't want to make any firm claims without running some numbers, though. If I get a chance a little later, I might do that. It would be nice to have on hand, since that's very commonly cited as a major advantage to monk bashing.
    Also, Sena doesn't contest that Monks have much better defensive potential than Jesters, if you read his whole post you'd actually see that, but I think you skimmed his concrete knowledge on the subject instead of trying to understand it.

    @Sena's a she (at least the character is, and I don't think the player has offered any reason to assume otherwise).

    I just don't think you factored everything in or how you reached this conclusion if you did.  Especially with spec builds. Most of the classes you've mentioned have a common spec build that allows their damage to scale higher for both pvp and pve, for example a str specced runewarden or str specced monk. Jester on the flipside is not a physical damage class for pvp, yet is for pve. So, the most common builds for jester are likely to be dex or con based in order to survive better. So, not much str to scale with unless you're the odd one out that went high str.

    Speccing for dex or con will give you 2 less str than speccing for str, which will be something like a ~10-12% difference, assuming that the strength scaling for bop is the same as for tekura. Significant, but not nearly as large as the difference in base DPS. Also, plenty of monks will also spec con, so assuming that all monks spec strength and no jesters do is not a fair comparison.

    And why wouldn't you go STR/CON on a Jester?  Jesters aren't particularly mana-draining, don't have anything that scales with INT, and only get the same benefit from DEX as every other class, which is to say, extra avoidance.  You might as well complain that Tekura damage scales with STR when Mind Crush and Kai Choke scale with INT (I think), so other classes that only scale damage off one attribute can dump the other into DEX.  But you don't, which is why I think your arguments are particularly whiny and hypocritical.
    It's true that extra avoidance is the only effect of dex, for jesters just like any other class, but since avoidance is a larger part of jesters' standard defense than most other classes', at least some of them do spec dex. Probably more common is to spec con. They do have at least one ability that scales with int, namely star tarot, but that's the only one I know of off the top of my head, and I doubt it's enough to get anyone to spec int.

     Most importantly, none of this is worth getting angry about. As far as I can see, @Sena's not attacking anyone by pointing out that her data disagree with people's apparent experience - just trying to figure out why it seems so much worse to some people than it ought to based on the numbers. @Kaie's post seemed a little overly defensive, but also just stating his experience and arguing some justification; I certainly don't see anything to warrant straying from disagreements on the facts at hand into personal attacks. I enjoy a good nerd-debate as much as the next guy, but it's always nice to at least keep them civil.
  • KaieKaie Posts: 158Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    This is more like it. I actually didn't realize there was a different formula for bop vs jab. Both being physical damage with weapons, I had imagined they would the same formula modified by the weapon and player stats. It seems like it would just be easier to manage if each type of damage followed the same rule oppose to having variations in it floating around.

    Also, I had the speed on Soulpiercers wrong actually. I was certain I checked a few hours ago and they both had 240 speed, but I must have been staring at maces. Not sure how I got the damage from rapier and speed from mace.. that's actually kind of embarrassing but yeah. :neutral_face:" alt=":neutral_face:" height="20" />

    As for the crit thing though, I understand that each of a monks hits is 1/3 of it's actual attack potential. I get that and don't disagree with him that breaking out a single x2 crit during an attack isn't as effective as me breaking a x2 crit on bop. My thought process with that was that as you increase the rate of critical hits, which could be anywhere from x2 damage to x32 damage it should begin to rack up as you gain a higher chance of kicking them out.

    Anyways, now that I see where you're getting this it sounds about right with base stats. For the record though wasn't trying to say jester is bad, though after looking at the response from @Bukariin‌ I think that's what was interpreted. I think jester is okay and artied Jester is pretty decent and the jump from lvl 1 blackjack to lvl3 is nuts, but man do stock blackjacks just feel bad. I suppose I have to admit maybe your right and the reason stock ones feel so sucky might be that I can't swap them out for ones with different stats like most every other weapon.
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