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Jester Combat

NaahNaah Member Posts: 235 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
I'm going to attempt to do this on my phone. Wish me luck.

So I am going to assume that Jester combat is very linear, or only has three real options to kill. Now I could be totally wrong, I've never faced a Jester 1v1 and only seen logs. I've seen slowlock/JitB, Some aeon/mangle/death, and some troll illusions for a free kill with JitB. Could anyone expand on the necessities of Jester combat or being a good Jester? Artefacts essential, maybe an ideal icon, proper traits and specialization? Or is Jester a lot better suited to group combat? Is there anyway a Jester can lock someone or hinder them or trick a system into thinking they're locked?

Anything from old Jester players to personal experience against them is welcome!
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Comments

  • KuyKuy Member Posts: 1,497 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jester is awesome.

    The problem is that it takes creativity, and people don't like having to work for things.
    [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
    NaahTohran
  • NaahNaah Member Posts: 235 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I disagree with that, and your post wasn't beneficial to what I asked. :p I see a lot of people work hard to get kills or better understand their class. Its like telling a druid they can't get into combat or a runewarden will never be good as x, y, or z. I want to pursue Jester as a possible class, far in the future because it looks fun and I could savor every kill instead of putting on DOR kill combo and press a button when their legs break.
    TohranDomanicMako
  • ZeonZeon Member Posts: 757 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited March 2014
    Jester is a really powerful class. I've yet to see an especially good/innovative jester in my many years pking. Most jesters resort to old school trick tactics (most of which are incredibly fashion heavy) that have been around since before I started playing (~7 years ago), and when those don't work find themselves unable to kill. As to their unseen potential, there are still quite a few powerful theoretical kill methods for jesters that require only minimal fashions. I tested a couple of them on the test servers a while back and would put them on par with vivisect/heartseed instantkills (ranked in terms of how much room for error your victim is allowed when trying to stay alive).

    Pros:
    -Powerful 1v1, with room to innovate beyond what is currently seen.
    -Great support for group combat/often a deciding factor in fights.
    -No need for artefacts, though you'll want as many defensive ones as you can afford to offset your squishiness.
     
    Cons:
    -You're going to be very very squishy, glass cannons are only fun when you have the cannon. Jester is more like a glass booby trap.
    -Fashioning is boring, even when minimized, this part of your offense will be dreadfully boring.
    -You won't get any kills in group combat, so if you plan on taking part in group combat you'll be slowly losing more and more experience over time (wouldn't recommend this for a non-dragon/non-veteran combatant).
    -Tarots cards and bomb shit is pretty expensive, when compared to lots of other classes.

    Even though there aren't any artefacts that you really need to take advantage of your full offensive potential, shackles are pretty ridiculously powerful when used by jesters and would be worth looking into for survivability sake.

                   Party right, party hard,

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                                                                     Prefarar loop, accentato whore,

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    DartegaXithRomTohran
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,174 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Naah said:
    I disagree with that, and your post wasn't beneficial to what I asked. :p I see a lot of people work hard to get kills or better understand their class. Its like telling a druid they can't get into combat or a runewarden will never be good as x, y, or z. I want to pursue Jester as a possible class, far in the future because it looks fun and I could savor every kill instead of putting on DOR kill combo and press a button when their legs break.
    If that's all you're having to do as an (I'm assuming) unartied monk, then you're fighting in too low of a tier to worry about a class being too easy.
    image
  • DartegaDartega Member Posts: 148 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Definitely have more than 3 ways to kill, and now with suicide mice or some well timed bombs and a little luck, you can aeon lock for a voyria kill with 0 fashions. 
    I would also venture to say that, with enough fashions, jester has an unstoppable kill strategy. Good luck getting there against the stronger limb prep or damage classes without a solid amount of defensive arties though. Most of my fights either go the way of not having to worry about dying, so you can use whatever strategy you want, or you better have a way to kill with very few fashions.
    Shackle is crazy strong.
    I think with me doing 0 hindering and just leaning on my fashions macro, can barely get to 20 fashions before artie monk axk at ~6k health. 
    I will admit to falling asleep at the keyboard and relying on the old tricks, because they still mostly work. Most just take one slip up from your opponent and they're dead.
    Lots of room for innovation though. 
    Hocuspocus illusions are damn nice too. 
    Tohran
  • NaahNaah Member Posts: 235 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Jacen said:


    Naah said:

    I disagree with that, and your post wasn't beneficial to what I asked. :p I see a lot of people work hard to get kills or better understand their class. Its like telling a druid they can't get into combat or a runewarden will never be good as x, y, or z. I want to pursue Jester as a possible class, far in the future because it looks fun and I could savor every kill instead of putting on DOR kill combo and press a button when their legs break.

    If that's all you're having to do as an (I'm assuming) unartied monk, then you're fighting in too low of a tier to worry about a class being too easy.

    Yeah. Really boring tbf. I tried to make the jump to fighting more experienced people, but usually means artefacts on their side. And its hard to prep faster when you're being out damaged and prepped. Not that its impossible, but I'm finding I'm losing the point of me being a part of Achaea and combat situations as monk.

    It sounds silly but I'm an emotional gamer. I'm finding that I'm focusing to much on me and my experience, rather than how to function as a team. I really need to lie back and say to myself, and say 'You know what? I'm pretty terrible, I'm just playing an easy class in low tiered combat.' I really need to find my humility and learn a class that takes dedication and time. Something that contributes to Mhaldor and my party, not just myself. Maybe I can easily do this as monk, but my mind set is not in the right place as this class. Again, this all sounds silly, but that's just my stance on how I see myself acting lately.

    Back on topic!

    So since Jester is a glass cannon, essentially if you screw up your execution or a good/better combatant gets out of your hindrance/aeoned mangle you're pretty screwed?
    Bishan
  • KuyKuy Member Posts: 1,497 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You can play Jester and never die ever. The problem is no one will ever fight you because it's lame.

    Stick with monk. Learn how to kill bigger people as a monk. It will make you a better PKer and will lead you to the sense of satisfaction you're looking for.

    Switching class because you can't kill bigger people isn't a good reason to switch. You've done well in your tier. You'll eventually move to the next and be doing well. It just takes time.
    [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,588 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jester has the most variety in offense and possibly even defense. But it's defense that relies on getting away and avoiding rather than taking any damage whatsoever.

    You will need a defensive artie or two. Experts should build full dex/dodge with traits and specs, but if you're starting out might as well take constitution (until the skills get an appropriate dex bias like serpents received recently).
    SoA is pretty much mandatory.

    It also requires a lot of micromanagement too. A pretty efficient puppetry/fashion tracker, although recent changes helped with targetting puppets. A smart way to manage bombs. If you plan to use hocuspocus in any significant way you'll need to track its timers as well so you know when to hit.

    It's a combo class. You do v,w,x,y,z in sequence in a short space. This does mean getting familiar with a balance queue of some kind or making your own. If you miss a step by a half second it can defeat your combo. But that's all just mechanical stuff. Actually figuring out your combos and sequences is where people get lost. 

    I'd advise not trying to fight the same way another jester does, because you can't. It's what keeps the class viable, because it's all trick based, which means things that can be prevented. If you show off the same trick too many times, it'll lose its value, sort of like a magic show.

    Also don't get a shackle. People will hate you enough without it. Try to be cheap within the confines of your class. And trust me, balloons are plenty cheap by themselves.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
    TohranGror
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,174 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I don't think -anyone- would advise you to change class away from monk if your desire is to contribute to your party.
    image
    NimRomTohran
  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Xith said:
    Also don't get a shackle. People will hate you enough without it. 
    Now, now, it isn't cheap to use an artefact to your advantage in a fight. Besides, if you're fighting and winning, people are going to hate you anyway.

    Is it confirmed Jester is getting a dex balance? I thought the shared skills with Occultist and Shaman had nixed that idea for now. 
    Kuy said:
    You can play Jester and never die ever. Shackle is crazy strong. Hocuspocus illusions are damn nice too. 
    Agreed. Illusions & tarot are both awesome. Shackle is a great artefact after a SoA and artie blackjack (you may find hunting slow and laborious with anything less than a Level 3). 
    Zeon said:
    Jester is a really powerful class
    Agreed. @Bonko was amazing as a Jester. @Kaie has stuck with the class longer than anyone else I know. I think he still gets frustrated with it at times, but he's become pretty analytical about his combat, which is something that really only results from long exposure to a class. As a result, I don't think it is so much about combos or tricks with this class as using the agility your class abilities offer to respond to (and form new attacks) for every opponent you face. 

    Racial specialization go for Con more than likely with the trait Nimble for faster balance recovery. 
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Bluef said:
    Xith said:
    Also don't get a shackle. People will hate you enough without it. 
    Now, now, it isn't cheap to use an artefact to your advantage in a fight.
    I was about to argue otherwise, but... you're right! It's expensive! ♪
    EldBluefAradorBishan
  • RomRom Member Posts: 464 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited March 2014
    Jacen said:
    I don't think -anyone- would advise you to change class away from monk if your desire is to contribute to your party.
    A Jester is so much more useful in groups than an unartied monk it's not even comparable.

    To elaborate a little: puppet travel backup, puppet summon saves, 100% success rate adjacent bombs (this will win engagements on your back), -HANGEDMAN- (this will win engagements on your back), new mickey is ridiculous with any class that afflicts quickly, then there is the rest of the huge huge tarot utility with priestess/magician, empress saves and on-demand backup, universe escapes, fool saves, pre-emptive towers on potential LoS, aeon is an almost instant secured kill with the right allies, etc. All so much more useful than knuckle-less punches, un-diademed (likely 11 int) telepathy/kaido, and axekicks that don't make you flinch.

    On the topic of 1v1, Jester can be frustrating. With a shackle you can pretty much avoid certain death as long as you fight on your terms, but securing kills is annoying against people that know what you're up to, so you will need to think up some fun stuff versus people that writhe/outr/diagnose/avoid closed rooms/whatever correctly. I will say though that hocus pocus is crazy good and fun to mess around with. Doing 6-line illusions and stuff is really funny as long as you don't mind getting beat up without retaliating for those big EQ times. Anyway it's a fun class to think up new ideas with, and can easily keep you occupied for a long time.
    Post edited by Rom on
    BluefUtianimaAlcinae
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,588 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Unless you're an Ashtan jester. Try fashioning party members that are constantly all cloudsearringastralOKAYGUYSONBAL. I'm left at gates off balance like "Thanks guys I got 6 fashions. Glad to help. Portal?"
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • NaisarNaisar Member Posts: 255 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Get daggers.  You can throw juggled ones at .7 to .4 seconds of balance, which lets you do an unimaginably large amount of stupid stuff because throwing a juggled concussionbomb is also exceptionally fast and stuns for quite awhile.  You can even prep limbs with bop and then break with the thrown daggers.  Some examples of random Jester shenanigans with daggers:

    • Juggle two daggers and a concussionbomb.  Go one room out, throw concussionbomb, throw the two daggers with delphinium, puppet sleep/hourglass.  This actually works.
    • Prep limb.  Throw Hierophant.  Throw Aeon.  Throw prefarar dagger to break limb.  Order sip speed and puppet concussion.  Puppet slow.
    • Rub death. Prep limb.  Break limb with prefarar dagger.  On restoration application, puppet cripple.  Order restore and throw death.
    • Juggle two daggers and a concussionbomb.  Throw Hierophant.  Throw Aeon.  Throw prefarar dagger.  Order sip speed/juggle dagger.  Leave, throw concussionbomb, throw asthma/anorexia daggers, walk in and throw Aeon.

    None of these mention using mickey, which is borderline cheating right now, so you can add that in.  Jesters also have the most ridiculous illusioning capabilities with Hocuspocus.  
    JovoloDartegaJosoul
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,306 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Not gonna lie, Jester-Seftin is my favorite person atm, probably.
    Seftin
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,055 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    225 speed is .9 juggled, 231 .8. Getting to .4 you'd need absolutely amazing weapons. .8 is a more realistic expectation (but it still beats the famed formula of 5>(juggledaxe*2)+3 to beat speed and stick asthma in aeon, which is pretty much all you need to do considering hocus pocus exists and re-juggling only takes a second of balance.

    Jester is very similar to serpent in the incredibly high ceiling of creativity and potential offensive capability. The potential to rift lock in Aeon with Vardrax and epteth daggers is also something that hasn't been explored. <3 the class. Fashioning only downside as a boring mechanic for both sides.
    Dartega
  • NaisarNaisar Member Posts: 255 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited March 2014
    Are those speeds with or without considering the knife thrower trait?  I did have very fast daggers though.

    Edit:  And of course I could be getting confused with the balance from throwing bombs, which I think is also in that range.  Anyway, they're stupid fast.
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,588 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    People overestimate an individual dagger. I always bought with higher to-hit so they wouldn't miss
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • SeftinSeftin Member Posts: 923 @ - Epic Achaean
    genuinely sit and look at all the class skills and think up ideas you can do, then write them down, then write down your opponents curing pattern,  then cry for a bit.

    Then try it in game and lol as it works one time.

    Then cry a little bit more.

    Then think of a new tactic, try it out etc.

    rinse and repeat till you have a series of ideas that work well off each other (and can lead into other things for instance, throw axe aeon and then don't have enough for concussion, try having something else to use off that etc)

    But seriously, be prepared to try a load of things that wont work to find one or two things that do work for a little bit. It's fun. Ish.

    XithUtianimaKaie
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,588 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    ^ This. Incredibly fun if you're a strategic puzzler.
    If you don't have patience, you're gonna have a bad time.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
    Seftin
  • SobriquetSobriquet Member Posts: 1,198 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Xith said:
    ^ This. Incredibly fun if you're a strategic puzzler. If you don't have patience, you're gonna have a bad time.
    Agreed.

    Funny thing is, I lost all patience trying to sort out venom combos, illusions, etc for my Naga and totally gave up. Don't fight at all on him other than raid defense (Aim, shoot, run away). On Sobby, i'll spend ages tinkering over little things.
    image
    SeftinUtianima
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 5,645 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Mickey increases herb balance duration slightly after being eaten and provides a small curing buffer a la voidfist for a single cure which is an extremely strong mechanic coupled with the ability to quickly burst 3 afflictions in < 1.5s with fast daggers. It makes sticking asthma for a quick slowlock very straightforward.

    With Makarios fixing dagger proficiency accuracy not scaling from Pranks properly as well, you don't need trans Weaponry or axes to do much with Jester anymore. Ardent classhoppers should give it a go.
    :pleased::pleased:
  • SeftinSeftin Member Posts: 923 @ - Epic Achaean
    Ardent class hoppers? I'm already doing it ffs.
    Xith
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,588 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yeah when I was jester Mickey was broken and didn't consume any herb balance. Pretty sure the bug was dismissed. But the 3 daggers alone was actually tough to stick normal aeon without timed concussion which can be dropped. The mickey is supposed to do what it does and be powerful.
    It was previously borderline useless.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
    BluefTohran
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,055 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It wasn't broken per se, it was just a remnant from a time when systems eere terrible and even amnesia used to break people, etc. It was refunctioned a classlead or two ago to consume herb balance, which is obviously a seriously powerful change.
    Dartega
  • SeftinSeftin Member Posts: 923 @ - Epic Achaean
    I think that mickey should work slightly differently. Slip Mickey to target. target eats Mickey.

    A look of confusion and disgust crosses the face of Jovolo as he realises he just ate Mickey the mouse, whole. A moment of panic crosses Jovolo's features as he realises there was a contraption strapped to the mouses back. A tick overcomes Jovolo's features as hemoves in time to an unheard beat moments before his stomach explodes, killing him instantly.
    TeshaPraxides
  • TeshaTesha Member Posts: 2,697 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    That would be cool. You'll still change class in a few days though.

     i'm a rebel

    BluefSeftinPraxides
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