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Theft Updates
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
@Accipiter this whole thing is consequences. Are you aware of what the word means?
So if I'm understanding this correctly...
Changes were made to theft because (partially at least) people felt like they couldn't spend time out of their city away from guard stacks, making it hard to do things like questing, fishing, bashing, and spending time with friends in places that weren't guard stacks.
Elyon violated what almost everyone so far has agreed was the spirit of the rules in place (HELP SPAM, no rp justification for deaths, trading gold for xp, etc) because he found that the new open pk rules stopped him from doing things like questing, fishing, visiting with friends in other cities, bashing, etc.
Elyon - you experienced Achaea the same way all of your victims did for the first time since you were a newbie and decided to become a thief... and you took the first out you could find, regardless of how 'right' or 'ethical' it is, and like anyone else who runs from a situation they created you're trying to make it sound like you're the victim and you had no other alternative.
Don't get me wrong here, Elyon and I have had many, many positive interactions over the time that I've been playing, including times when he tried to steal from me. I am not one of the people that felt overly limited by the actions of thieves, but I also don't pretend that my experience is universal either. I truly and honestly want all players, including Elyon and Profit, to enjoy playing Achaea. What happened last night (my time) was not an enjoyable experience for most players. Watching two players blatantly walk all over the rules just because they don't address their specific actions so that one of them can run away from the consequences of his actions (let's be honest, most of us feel like Elyon -should- have to spend some time hiding on guard stacks to make up for the people that have stopped playing because of him) when his actual IG motto is 'You have noone but yourself to blame.' is pretty crappy, and we should all call it crappy.
Higher levels of infamy take extremely long amounts of time to fade naturally. Going off HELP INFAMY LOSS, near-permanent Infamous represents 240 hours of active time in-game to fade. If my understanding of this is correct, he'd need to spend nearly a quarter of the time I've spent playing this character in complete safety for it to wear off automatically. If your average play session is about 4 hours, you'd need to spend two whole months every day waiting for it to fade.
It's essentially 2 months of full game time "house arrest" to your city if you're renowned enough to have people wanting to gank you.
I think given the option to exchange a few hours and maybe 10-20 hours of experience gain for a bunch of deaths when staring the prospect of being stuck in your city for 240 hours, most people would take it. Not that I am particularly thrilled about the outcome of this particular choice, mind you.
Because IC you are never supposed to believe that Ugrach will send you back. IC death is supposed to be something to be avoided.
So. While I'm all for trolling Elyon, this bit here kinda sticks out. He asked "what wasn't credible about what I did?" and this really doesn't answer that. If a character doesn't care about their life, it has nothing to do with Ugrach sending them back or not. IC they could very well not care if they do or don't come back, and that's fine.
The entire situation is whack and it's kinda weird to defend what was done (seeing as the "repeated deaths for personal gain" thing has led to people being shrubbed previously), but like ... No roleplay side of things were ignored, at least. This is getting into what the "That isn't what Good is!" kinda argument is that people often throw around.
Disappearing from Achaea for now. See you, space cowboy.
smileyface#8048 if you wanna chat.
You took a mechanic and pushed it to its extreme to exchange a large amount of time for a resource you care less about. You invested all of the consequences into one character, of your choice, and turned a profit in doing so.
Rules lawyering would be fine if it worked for anyone else.
Help spam is nothing to do with me. The game spammed itself, not me. Didn't trade gold for xp at all. I stood around the flame and died a lot to get my infamy down and both aegoth and some Eleusians helped.
Nope, I'd been robbed before, I knew exactly what that was like and uh, no, it was hardly the same as when I was a thief.
The consequences were that I needed to die, I accepted that, died a bunch and now the problem is solved. That's how the infamy system works. If you don't like how it works that's kinda on you and not me.
As for time spent on guards? I'd been doing that for nearly a real life year before that but being stuck in guards with literally nothing else to do makes the game a little cruddy and frankly I intend to be able to continue playing the game without having to leave my computer on overnight with achaea running so that the infamy doesn't three months to go away.
It was all by the book. No rules being walked over or whatever. It sucked to see me get killed a lot? Well so be it. that's the consequences of having deathsight up.
If a mechanic makes it impossible for someone to continue playing the game then it isn't a very good mechanic I guess, but whatever, I'm out, you guys can go back to moaning about getting 5v1ed all you like now because it ain't gonna be anything to do with me.
@Accipiter honestly my first choice was retirement since the character had kinda become the nth degree of a thief.
Instead, did this and yeah, I took the deaths instead of a large amount of time. It's a game. It is supposed to be fun, not just a background task on my computer whilst I play something else waiting for it to run out. I am also, as you probably will have forgotten, no longer able to pickpocket people. I have to deal with not being allowed in any other cities, so on and so forth. Not like my actions haven't had lasting effects, just I can actually go and do things with my time now and can go back to playing the game.
All things considered, you got what you wanted, which is for me to stop thieving, what's the issue? That your requirement is that I haven't suffered enough yet?
Can we focus on how shit aegoths deathsight is please
What is it, I haven't seen it
Something about the holocaust
It doesn't even have his name in it!
Scorching the firmament in sinister sanguine, a massive pyre blazes unto the heavens as Elyon's body is reduced to naught but ash before the inexorable wrath and flame of the Holocaust King.
Disappearing from Achaea for now. See you, space cowboy.
smileyface#8048 if you wanna chat.
There was a viable way out, which was to take the deaths naturally as people jumped you while not thieving over a period of time. If it took 100 deaths or so from Aegoth in a big spam, I'm sure you would have gotten killed 10 or so times a day. You would have been in the same place after a week and a half, especially if you didn't slam on your emergency button the second someone came within an area code of you.
And then it those deaths would have felt like an in-world result (dare I say... a consequence?!) of a life of crime catching up to you, rather than what you did, which was a rote, mechanical hamfisted frontloading to "get it out of the way".
The consequences were that I needed to die
Elyon, Elyon, Elyon. You've had it all your way for so long. Had so much fun at others expense. You've gotten used to massive rewards with few consequences. You did have a choice - you could have chosen to fight, but you took the easy way out. I guess we shouldn't be surprised that a thief would be into short cuts.
It was all by the book. No rules being walked over or whatever.
Yeah, keep telling yourself that, rustle.
You got my hopes up that someone ended up shrubbed after all this.
I going to stop seeming like I'm shitting on you here as it's been done to death. But we have both Dauntless and Mark that allows people to be open PK all the time to anyone and not one of those people would suggest the same is unplayable. This comes down to the actions of Elyon as a character and the way in which those actions were accepted by the playerbase as a whole.
I do agree more of a warning around the Theft / Infamy changes would have gone some way to allowing you to reposition your character's actions.
I’m not thrilled about all of this, but for fuck sake put context into what happened.
The consequences for thieving were changed without warning and applied retroactively. No thief was prepared to be open PK for 240 hours. They weren’t given any warning to this massive rules change.
I personally don’t really think it’s fair to apply new consequences to old actions. For all the hoopla about the minor earring change and people demanding refunds because it’s stopped by monolith sigils, I had thought maybe people would be a smudge more understanding about sudden, massively impactful changes.
Retroactively applying the thief infamy was a bad idea imo.
@Gurklukke you should issue. Everyone here knows how often this "Austere" guy uses SnB, and he obviously should have had this fixed by now. Shame on him. Shame on his family. Shame on his cow.
Was only a matter of time before Austere started bug abusing class skills, after Atalkez was using Depthswalker things as a Serpent.
Bans pls admin.
Disappearing from Achaea for now. See you, space cowboy.
smileyface#8048 if you wanna chat.
@Eryl They weren't applied retroactively though? At least not on Otha. The amount of gain per pickpocket is pretty insane, but I'm fine with it. 2 attempts got me ~4 deaths worth of thief infamy, which seems fair.
I actually appreciate the gank squads coming out of Hashan for me, especially when 1:1 jumping with a ton of relics isn't working. It makes it feel a lot like old Achaea hunting thieves. 100% onboard. I laughed at my screen at a few times.
Will I keep stealing? Probably at about the same rate, which is to say not much.
edit: The news post doesn't mention anything about retroactive either, and I had been pickpocketing right before. Based on how long it takes to fade I have a hard time believing it was retroactive.
My understanding of what happened based on WHOIS pulls around when the news post occurred was that Infamy that was gained prior to the change stuck around, which makes sense. The Thief tag was not applied right away though. My suspicion is that it was applied to people who pickpocketed after the change was made, but still connected to their Infamy that may or may not have been gained before the change took place. I fully admit that I may be wrong about the Thief tag only being applied after someone used pickpocket after the change was made. It may have hit them based on pickpockets from before the change and just took a while to process. Personally I think that what I suspect happened is what should have happened. If people got the Thief tag based on pickpockets from before the change that would be somewhat messed up.
Elyon Wineapple (male Mhun).
His date of birth is hidden by the sand of Aeon.
He is ranked 579th in Achaea.
He is an extremely credible character.
He is a noted thief.
He is one of the staggeringly Infamous.
Well, someone with Power didn't like it...
I don't know if thief tag is tied to regular infamy in any way. I had the thief tag and just rapidly approaching infamous at one point. It makes sense that it could be, but I wouldn't take it as a given.
My guess is that Eyon went on a spree when he thought he was going to retire, decided he wanted to stay and enjoy the game, and died 100 times to do it. I mean theoretically couldn't he have just used self bites to suicide that many times or does suicide not reduce infamy?
He isn't the first person to rage die a ton before changing paths with his character. Is it immersion breaking? Yes. Could you rp a frustrated person trying unsuccessfully to suicide? Maybe?
Was the thief tag retroactive? No. Elyon stole after the changes, got the tag, hated the changes, and paid what was deemed an appropriate price. Why bicker about the method of payment? Just gag or relax deathsight.
Edit: It is a pretty big copout, and I get the opt-in / opt-out argument when compared to theft victims. Personally I think it's lame, but so is arguing about that singular event on a thread regarding systemic changes. If it becomes a recurring issue then maybe we should discuss it.
Otha - Nicola answered early on in this thread that the Thief tag was tied to Infamy and would go away when Infamy fades.
Huh. So an infamy above 0 and pickpocket attempt marks you as a thief? That's actually better than I thought.
Seriously though, give us a talon tattoo that summons a thief that stays in the area so we can pull them off guard stacks.
Edit: I'll screw around a bit later to see if 1 attempt really does mark you as a thief.
I -think- it's IF pickpocket AND Infamous THEN get the tag
I don't know if one pickpocket attempt is enough to go from zero Infamy to Infamous or not
Didn't trade gold for xp at all.
Aegoth already said he paid you like...100k, so you kinda did.
This is a bit of an edge case (losing a resource rather than gaining it), but yes we are not going to let people do this - relative parties can consider themselves warned.
I think for the most part this thread has ran its course, though. We will see how things go.