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Casing and Fencing

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  • MinifieMinifie
    I would prefer if items that are even made non-decay can not be stolen, and you couldn't be forced to remove packs, but serpents could see clothes, loose scabbards and the like be targeted or gold, but obviously not a significant pile of gold at once. Talking to thieves they don't disagree with having more protection in place and not so much the ability to clean someone out of hundreds of credits in one hit, the thing is I'm 100% for that, but I still think theft as a mechanic should stay, but limiting factors placed on it is all. A recent friend was robbed of ~300 credits of items that were non decay, turning triggers on and off during testing. That sucks, and I don't think that should be possible, but neither should theft just be completely gone. There is a middle ground for this mechanic I feel, and it's just a matter of reaching it.
  • TorinnTorinn
    Antonius said:
    "Theft is okay because I can't personally be affected by it." is such a great position.
    It's not any secret knowledge or technique or anything
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
  • MorsulMorsul
    Minifie said:
    I would prefer if items that are even made non-decay can not be stolen, and you couldn't be forced to remove packs, but serpents could see clothes, loose scabbards and the like be targeted or gold, but obviously not a significant pile of gold at once. Talking to thieves they don't disagree with having more protection in place and not so much the ability to clean someone out of hundreds of credits in one hit, the thing is I'm 100% for that, but I still think theft as a mechanic should stay, but limiting factors placed on it is all. A recent friend was robbed of ~300 credits of items that were non decay, turning triggers on and off during testing. That sucks, and I don't think that should be possible, but neither should theft just be completely gone. There is a middle ground for this mechanic I feel, and it's just a matter of reaching it.
    "Someone who is not me lost $100 and gee that's sad but it would be ok if they only lost $50 I guess?"

    ok karen, whatever you say.
  • MorthifMorthif
    It’s cost prohibitive 
  • MinifieMinifie
    Morsul said:
    Minifie said:
    I would prefer if items that are even made non-decay can not be stolen, and you couldn't be forced to remove packs, but serpents could see clothes, loose scabbards and the like be targeted or gold, but obviously not a significant pile of gold at once. Talking to thieves they don't disagree with having more protection in place and not so much the ability to clean someone out of hundreds of credits in one hit, the thing is I'm 100% for that, but I still think theft as a mechanic should stay, but limiting factors placed on it is all. A recent friend was robbed of ~300 credits of items that were non decay, turning triggers on and off during testing. That sucks, and I don't think that should be possible, but neither should theft just be completely gone. There is a middle ground for this mechanic I feel, and it's just a matter of reaching it.
    "Someone who is not me lost $100 and gee that's sad but it would be ok if they only lost $50 I guess?"

    ok karen, whatever you say.
    That's nothing like what I said, but continue to be so butthurt by theft that I'd prefer it stay able to steal high-value items just to spite you, unless you want to engage in actual discussion?
  • NumiraNumira
    Or just newbie kick people who look sketchy. You might get killed for it, but they probably won’t take you or your friends stuff if they are busy stabbing you, which is fine by me. (Now I’m gonna get locked or something if I try it again. Oh well. Not like I have a lot of interesting things anyway.)

    Also I want to add to the serious discussion here, but I also suspect my risk/reward/annoyance/amusement meter is a bit too relaxed when it comes to measurable things like gold and exp. So while I want to argue that I have never been bothered enough by theft to even hire, you might want to take that with a grain of salt.
  • MorsulMorsul
    Minifie said:
    Morsul said:
    Minifie said:
    I would prefer if items that are even made non-decay can not be stolen, and you couldn't be forced to remove packs, but serpents could see clothes, loose scabbards and the like be targeted or gold, but obviously not a significant pile of gold at once. Talking to thieves they don't disagree with having more protection in place and not so much the ability to clean someone out of hundreds of credits in one hit, the thing is I'm 100% for that, but I still think theft as a mechanic should stay, but limiting factors placed on it is all. A recent friend was robbed of ~300 credits of items that were non decay, turning triggers on and off during testing. That sucks, and I don't think that should be possible, but neither should theft just be completely gone. There is a middle ground for this mechanic I feel, and it's just a matter of reaching it.
    "Someone who is not me lost $100 and gee that's sad but it would be ok if they only lost $50 I guess?"

    ok karen, whatever you say.
    That's nothing like what I said, but continue to be so butthurt by theft that I'd prefer it stay able to steal high-value items just to spite you, unless you want to engage in actual discussion?
    Haha, you literally said: 300 credits. That's around $100 worth. There will be loopholes and loopholes for this to happen, again and again, unless theft is stamped out completely.
  • AegothAegoth
    300cr is worth $0 according to Achaea's legal ToS. Sorry
  • TorinnTorinn
    edited August 2019
    A lot of people don't like theft, but a lot of people do as well, and not just thieves.  
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
  • CooperCooper
    You say that as if the "a lot" of people are the same number on both sides.

    Let's find out!

  • GrorGror
    I'm not a huge enemy of theft, I think it's cool in theory and would be fun to do to people. The problem is that it doesn't add anything to the game whatsoever, and the punishments for the thieves are nonexistent. Everything else adds something to the game. Even bounties, consequences of actions you opt in on, and they give you more opportunities for interaction. Thieving is just "oh, I was basically a denizen so this loser could get free shit" is very very lame. Any arguments in defense of letting like three people have a griefing system at the expense of the other 100 some active players are just dumb. 

    That being said the recent changes are a big step in the right direction. Non thieves can go get a chance to buy  and access stolen items? Awesome. Victims have a chance to get their junk back, without acquiescing to the whims of their victimizer? Awesome. Presumable gold sink as most of the gold spent on stolen items disappears? Also awesome.

    Potential solution: make thieving a tradeskill of sorts that anyone can learn and that allows them to rob denizens for actually cool stuff. Similar to diving, 99.9% of the time it's a waste of time but sometimes you find something cool.
  • PenwizePenwize
    Mathonwy said:

    Maybe there should be a 'theft cap' (like the gold cap) per person per day or something, but it should be easier to choose from a wider array of targets. That way, if you DC but don't have your timeout set to, like, two minutes (which, if you're prone to DCing, you should), you might lose something, but not the whole farm, unless you don't learn from your mistakes. It also means the thieves would have to pick from a wider array of targets, because if you're the last one to the piggy bank of an easy mark, you might just find smashed porcelain.
    This is in line what I was talking about in my earlier post.  If your potential losses from theft were more in-line with other potential losses in the game (such as death or being removed from your city, for example), then it'd be a lot easier to justify making theft something that's a little bit harder to prevent for experienced players, and also would provide a disincentive to target inexperienced players. 
  • TreyTrey
    Penwize said:
    Mathonwy said:

    Maybe there should be a 'theft cap' (like the gold cap) per person per day or something, but it should be easier to choose from a wider array of targets. That way, if you DC but don't have your timeout set to, like, two minutes (which, if you're prone to DCing, you should), you might lose something, but not the whole farm, unless you don't learn from your mistakes. It also means the thieves would have to pick from a wider array of targets, because if you're the last one to the piggy bank of an easy mark, you might just find smashed porcelain.
    This is in line what I was talking about in my earlier post.  If your potential losses from theft were more in-line with other potential losses in the game (such as death or being removed from your city, for example), then it'd be a lot easier to justify making theft something that's a little bit harder to prevent for experienced players, and also would provide a disincentive to target inexperienced players. 
    Given that cities are under no obligation to pay you back for repossessing a shop, being removed from your city can have a MASSIVE blow to your character outweighing anything a thief can currently do to you (with pickpocket/case specifically, I know shop infiltration is still a thing), so this is probably not supporting your argument as well as you might think.

    Side note - I haven't actually helped anyone test this particular point yet: does Case currently lose all stacks in the event of a successful pickpocket? If not, I would put forth that it should, stealing multiple targetted items in one go seems excessive.

  • LennLenn
    Shops are opt-in.

    They're also atrocious, so I've firmly opted out.
  • TreyTrey
    Lenn said:
    Shops are opt-in.

    They're also atrocious, so I've firmly opted out.
    Is there anything in this game you don't complain about?


    Point that was made to me outside of forums - paralysis/prone/stun/web/transfix/off bal don't currently stop case, and I agree that they probably should.

  • PenwizePenwize
    Eh, I was thinking more to the tune of things like the amount you'd lose in lessons by having to class switch, not entire shop repossession.  Shops are sort of a special case high-risk, high-reward thing limited to only a few people that I would have trouble including in balance considerations for anything else.  Theft being able to rob you of something to that magnitude is what I'm arguing against, not for.  A reasonable cap that's more to the tune of other in-game losses would make a lot more sense.
  • MorsulMorsul
    Permadeath for thieves. You're welcome Achaea.
  • ProficyProficy
    Man I wish this forums was open when vodun/puppet shake was a thing....
    Or even before selfishness was a skill
  • SobriquetSobriquet
    Proficy said:
    Man I wish this forums was open when vodun/puppet shake was a thing....
    Or even before selfishness was a skill
    See above

    (Party): Mezghar says, "Stop."
  • MorsulMorsul
    I seem to recall a study that Achaea (IRE?) released years ago about how theft was a significant factor in players leaving the game. And then they did something meaningful about it.


    Oh wait, theft is still here and flourishing. :lol:
  • AegothAegoth
    If only people were this passionate about fixing the gross disparity present in bashing classes.
  • SeyrnonSeyrnon
    I've had a large amount stolen from me (curse you Profit!), and I'm still for theft. It keeps the world interesting, like raiding places.
  • PanawenPanawen
    To me it seems that preventing theft requires OOC solutions for a IC problem, and that does not make sense to me. Sure it is "easy" to setup these solutions according to those in favor of theft and that casing has a small chance of success or whatever the excuses are, but I just do not feel that theft adds anything of real value to the game itself. To add danger? There is plenty of that around already. 

    Also it seems, to me, that whenever we speak about theft only one or two names pop up. So why have something requiring OOC solutions only because a handful of people enjoy it? 

    I doubt theft will ever dissapear completely, but it should at the very least be limited to gold,with a cap to the amount, and perhaps one or two other easily replaceable items. In that way only those that do it for the genuine thrill and enjoyment of it will continue to do so. Those that want special items can go and buy them like the rest of us.

     
  • CobaultCobault
    edited August 2019
    I liked theft. I still do, in a sense.
    Several people that I got along with back in the day and still socialize with now were/still are thieves.

    But truth be told, theft and thieves had dwindled and died down so damn bad, I don't see why there was even a need to beat a dead horse just because Profit woke back up. (No disrespect Profit, big fangirl of your work IC.) And yeah, by beat a dead horse, I mean there wasn't really a good reason to revive it or make changes to it. Being entirely honest... it should have just gotten deleted completely. This is coming from an entire-character-duration Serpent, like we haven't already had enough shit stolen from us or broken to the point of uselessness to be replaced by nothing of worth. Illusions? Worthless. Shrugging? Omg the stupidest change ever. I can for real go with like 4+ more, but I'm not gonna because that's not what I'm here to talk about.

    Bottom line is this: A huge majority of players hate theft. A very small group of players support it. It has been proven that theft can make a mf straight up quit Achaea for a long ass time if not for good. It is literally benchmarked to thoroughly screw over a player returning from dormancy edit: (And people that have disconnected from the damn game,) that is probably somewhere on the road around NoT, doesn't have triggers, gold is in their hand, selfishness down, they're trying to read and learn stuff they've missed... boom. Robbed empty. They QQ again and never touch the game again.
    Theft should be deleted completely. All forms of it imo. People without door perms can't enter houses at all, ghosts can't go through housing or shop doors anymore, add the same door perm conditions to shops, delete keys and alter keyrings to be the thing that sets door perms or something on a shop you own. Let's finally put to rest the system of people taking other people's shit and potentially making someone quit the game forever. A LOT of legacy stuff has been done away with... I just truthfully don't see why we cling to one so one-sided and detrimental to gameplay apart from "Yeah! Conflict!" Like we don't already all hate each other at all times because factions.
  • DochithaDochitha
    You guys realize all your "theft is bad let's remove it" opinions are not important? 
  • IllarionIllarion
    edited August 2019
    Lenn said:
    Shops are opt-in.

    They're also atrocious, so I've firmly opted out.

    Still not active, so still no real dog in this hunt, but the arguments around theft have always been fascinating so I'm diving in for a bit.

    This is an interesting background assumption that you see bandied around a lot whenever theft comes up, and I think it's a bad argument.  Bad, conceptually and bad for the game.  Whatever your position on the particular issue of theft, it's an attitude that needs to be ripped up from the roots and the earth salted afterwards. 

    What is interesting about Achaea to me, what always brought me back to Achaea, what keeps me still checking in on the forums and logging in every now and then years after I actually played in any meaningful way was the difference between Achaea and a regular "game".  You can't save.  You can't always choose your story.  Consequences can be permanent.  Gods die, you win elections, you lose elections, people scheme to oust you from positions, you forget to put your gold away while hunting, you buy something dumb, your city decides to take a particular position, you upset an NPC, you insult the big PKer, you adopt a heretical position, your guard placement allows a raid.

    There's a hundred different examples, and that's all the stuff that I think distinguishes Achaea.  That makes it different, that makes it feel like a living narrative.  I believed when I played a lot, and I still believe now, that the attitude that says you have to "opt in" to any of this stuff, that you can always choose how, and when to engage with the living world of Achaea is a bad attitude for the game.  It stifles, and limits, and encourages a kind of infantilizing preciousness in the playerbase as a whole.

    There have been some really good counter-arguments to theft here, and if I get the time I really want to respond to some of them (fair play to @Asmodron in particular for making a reasonable, logical case) but any arguments that spring from this attitude get short shrift from me.  If you see that kind of attitude, if you feel it in yourself: kill it with fire.  Achaea thanks you.

  • MorsulMorsul
    Illarion said:
    Lenn said:
    Shops are opt-in.

    They're also atrocious, so I've firmly opted out.

    Still not active, so still no real dog in this hunt, but the arguments around theft have always been fascinating so I'm diving in for a bit.

    This is an interesting background assumption that you see bandied around a lot whenever theft comes up, and I think it's a bad argument.  Bad, conceptually and bad for the game.  Whatever your position on the particular issue of theft, it's an attitude that needs to be ripped up from the roots and the earth salted afterwards. 

    What is interesting about Achaea to me, what always brought me back to Achaea, what keeps me still checking in on the forums and logging in every now and then years after I actually played in any meaningful way was the difference between Achaea and a regular "game".  You can't save.  You can't always choose your story.  Consequences can be permanent.  Gods die, you win elections, you lose elections, people scheme to oust you from positions, you forget to put your gold away while hunting, you buy something dumb, your city decides to take a particular position, you upset an NPC, you insult the big PKer, you adopt a heretical position, your guard placement allows a raid.

    There's a hundred different examples, and that's all the stuff that I think distinguishes Achaea.  That makes it different, that makes it feel like a living narrative.  I believed when I played a lot, and I still believe now, that the attitude that says you have to "opt in" to any of this stuff, that you can always choose how, and when to engage with the living world of Achaea is a bad attitude for the game.  It stifles, and limits, and encourages a kind of infantilizing preciousness in the playerbase as a whole.

    There have been some really good counter-arguments to theft here, and if I get the time I really want to respond to some of them (fair play to @Asmodron in particular for making a reasonable, logical case) but any arguments that spring from this attitude get short shrift from me.  If you see that kind of attitude, if you feel it in yourself: kill it with fire.  Achaea thanks you.

    it really is something spectacular when thieves and thief-defenders refer to """danger""" and """Consequences""" as if these are things that they actually experience.

    keep being you, veil and veil+ owners. classy as can be :wink::wink:
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