Forums Home Forum Rules Achaea.com Lore Wiki Vote for Achaea! IronRealms.com
Home› Everything Achaea› North of Thera

Third Black Wave: Electric Boogaloo

1…5681011…51

Comments

  • JiraishinJiraishin skulking
    Asmodron said:

    Pyori said:
    Vinzent said:
    I sincerely doubt the Tsol'teth are interested in taking the easiest route possible.
    I mean they went for Cyrene, and then Hashan...
    From a lore perspective, Cyrene was the most difficult city to siege in sapience.
    Only if lore didn't include player-recorded/recounted history, and I assume it would. 
    ________________________
    The soul of Ashmond says, "Always with the sniping."

    (Clan): Ictinus says, "Stop it Jiraishin, you're making me like you."
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User]
    It really wasn't.
  • MinifieMinifie
    Cyrene been improving on the defense front! When I started we could blitz at 3:1 odds no worries, now anything approaching 1.5:1 or higher we have to pull out scumbag tactics or very likely a loss. Is good stuff though, great fun to see Cyrene putting that to use now though :O
  • AsmodronAsmodron
    Pyori said:
    It really wasn't.
    From a lore point of view it was. It was surrounded by a mountain range, with a tunnel entrance to the city and a lake on the other side. Cyrene's entire original point of being founded was for seclusion and safety, and they definitely had that.

    Player raids is just pvp, and when considered from a bigger perspective it cant really be considered to the magnitude of a city siege.
  • AsmodronAsmodron
    Veldrin said:
    Jiraishin said:
    Asmodron said:

    Pyori said:
    Vinzent said:
    I sincerely doubt the Tsol'teth are interested in taking the easiest route possible.
    I mean they went for Cyrene, and then Hashan...
    From a lore perspective, Cyrene was the most difficult city to siege in sapience.
    Only if lore didn't include player-recorded/recounted history, and I assume it would. 
    Technically what players does isn't a siege. You try bringing siege weapons and an army to Cyrene's door.
    It's one of the reasons I've always disliked the ability to raid a city lore-wise. The city-states are supposed to be safe-haven for it's citizeins. Sneaking in and killing some people? Sure, being inside the city and everyone knows where you are? The hidden background npc soldiers wipe the floor with you (kinda like oakstone defences of old)

    But we sacrifice things mechanically for the player-base and this is just one of them.
    Basically this
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User]
    edited April 2019
    Asmodron said:
    From a lore point of view it was. It was surrounded by a mountain range, with a tunnel entrance to the city and a lake on the other side. Cyrene's entire original point of being founded was for seclusion and safety, and they definitely had that.
    Seclusion was its point. Its 'safety' lay in the fact they were people who wanted nothing to do with the wars, less so that it was an advantageous point to be in.
    Sieging a city means taking it over. It doesn't mean blowing it apart, ergo needing siege weapons like ballistae is moot. If you want to blow it apart, siege weapons are probably less effective than just having earth lords or dragons barreling through the buildings to level them. Hell Terminus has a word specifically for blowing through walls...
    Strategically, they have one of the worst places to be in, second only to Eleusis. And the fact they even have a second entry is a downside. Lakes can be flown over. See above point.
    Militaristically their army are probably the least trained/equipped to deal with full on assaults. Most of them are pacifists and artists who shun combat. Cyrene was literally founded to escape combat. The military they DO have, is much smaller than every other city except maybe(?) Eleusis. If Cyrene had to fend the Tsol'teth themselves, they would have lost significantly quicker.
  • VinzentVinzent
    Pretty sure Targossas is in worse shit if we're talking about water. Rains literally 24/7.
  • OzmatiahOzmatiah
    So sad that I am missing so much of this event... also why would Eleusis be next. They already took the citied with the most resources, a logical approach to war, Eleusis is rather small on that front, and we could just scatter to groves and forests through out, so actual gain for attack just the cillage seems tiny.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User]
    edited April 2019
    Ozmatiah said:
    So sad that I am missing so much of this event... also why would Eleusis be next. They already took the citied with the most resources, a logical approach to war, Eleusis is rather small on that front, and we could just scatter to groves and forests through out, so actual gain for attack just the cillage seems tiny.
    You forgot the part where Tsol'teth want to enslave everyone.
    Vinzent said:
    Pretty sure Targossas is in worse shit if we're talking about water. Rains literally 24/7.
    Never said water was a disadvantage. Was implying that Cyrene's second entry being a lake isn't a big deal, and doesn't add much security at all, when it can just be flown over.

  • OzmatiahOzmatiah
    Pyori said:
    Ozmatiah said:
    So sad that I am missing so much of this event... also why would Eleusis be next. They already took the citied with the most resources, a logical approach to war, Eleusis is rather small on that front, and we could just scatter to groves and forests through out, so actual gain for attack just the cillage seems tiny.
    You forgot the part where Tsol'teth want to enslave everyone.

    I am considering people as a resource. So, yes wanting to enslave everyone, but there should be some strategy to it, and not just willy nilly RPS with each other and winner picks the city to raid.  Not saying I'm right, but there is some logic applied, and at least the Guardian of Thorns wasn't identified as a person of interest, so that makes me feel better about not being next, Mhaldor and Ashtan's were identified as wanted specimens though.

  • ThaisenThaisen
    Minifie said:
    Cyrene been improving on the defense front! When I started we could blitz at 3:1 odds no worries, now anything approaching 1.5:1 or higher we have to pull out scumbag tactics or very likely a loss. Is good stuff though, great fun to see Cyrene putting that to use now though :O
    Why does everyone care about Cyrene getting into/better at PVP? Cyrene obviously doesn’t...
  • ThaisenThaisen
    Cooper said:
    Thaisen said:
    Minifie said:
    Cyrene been improving on the defense front! When I started we could blitz at 3:1 odds no worries, now anything approaching 1.5:1 or higher we have to pull out scumbag tactics or very likely a loss. Is good stuff though, great fun to see Cyrene putting that to use now though :O
    Why does everyone care about Cyrene getting into/better at PVP? Cyrene obviously doesn’t...
    This isn't true, don't be a dick. Lots of people in Cyrene have been trying to get better, and the practice shows in raids!
    Obviously there are pockets of people trying to get better, but the city as a whole? I mean I have tried a bit and failed miserably, I feel so bad for the Shield sometimes when there is just zero interest...
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User]
    edited April 2019
    Thaisen said:
    Let’s not pretend any city would have faired better in that onslaught.... 😂
    You know I'm not talking about player involvement, yes? You don't know much about history (or current stuff, for that matter) if you're saying this. If the Tsol'teth didn't keep getting #PlotArmour'd then pretty much every other city would have fared substantially better.
    Cooper said:
    This isn't true, don't be a dick. Lots of people in Cyrene have been trying to get better, and the practice shows in raids!
    Gotta agree with Cooper, here. They had been doing a hell of a lot better the past few months than they used to. A year ago raids were pretty much always one-sided if people raided Cyrene (and it wasn't in Cyrene's favour). It's fine if you don't like it, but it's not very good to be trying to drag down your entire city with this kinda mindset.
  • ThaisenThaisen
    Pyori said

    It's fine if you don't like it, but it's not very good to be trying to drag down your entire city with this kinda mindset.
    Just an observation, not trying to drag anyone down... I don’t mind either way. People like what they like.
  • AsmodronAsmodron
    Pyori said:
    Asmodron said:
    From a lore point of view it was. It was surrounded by a mountain range, with a tunnel entrance to the city and a lake on the other side. Cyrene's entire original point of being founded was for seclusion and safety, and they definitely had that.
    Seclusion was its point. Its 'safety' lay in the fact they were people who wanted nothing to do with the wars, less so that it was an advantageous point to be in.
    Sieging a city means taking it over. It doesn't mean blowing it apart, ergo needing siege weapons like ballistae is moot. If you want to blow it apart, siege weapons are probably less effective than just having earth lords or dragons barreling through the buildings to level them. Hell Terminus has a word specifically for blowing through walls...
    Strategically, they have one of the worst places to be in, second only to Eleusis. And the fact they even have a second entry is a downside. Lakes can be flown over. See above point.
    Militaristically their army are probably the least trained/equipped to deal with full on assaults. Most of them are pacifists and artists who shun combat. Cyrene was literally founded to escape combat. The military they DO have, is much smaller than every other city except maybe(?) Eleusis. If Cyrene had to fend the Tsol'teth themselves, they would have lost significantly quicker.

    No one said to blow cyrene apart, but to take a over a city and kill its defenders you often have to use siege weapons.

    I see your mention of 'flying', let's address this. Currently in Achaea, there is no form of flight-based vessel of war, as Achaea is roughly based in a medieval fantasy era. Yes there is 'magic' but if we try to use magic in debate, then it wont end. For this reason I will focus primarily on the physical attributes of city and troops. If we use the 'flying' excuse, this meaning troops flying in, then this brings us to anti-air defenses, something guards are quite well trained in. This also means that troops used to fighting on the ground would have to adjust to airborne tactics.

    As for guard prowess, I find it silly to try and suggest that guards and troops wouldnt be very strong, simply because Cyrene wanted seclusion and peace. Yes, some cities would naturally have stronger troops, but that doesnt mean others do not train. That is the entire purpose of a city having a barracks as well as defense-inclined organizations. Their ability to defend is not in question.

    I'm going to ignore the Tsol'teth as an attacking force in general here because they are their own unique criteria imo. I'm focusing purely on armies and troops.

    Here is how I view each city, in descending order of difficulty to siege:

    - Cyrene: Surrounded by mountain terrain. Contains a tunnel in order to enter the city by land which can be used to choke point an enemy. Has a lake to the south of it, which would force ground troops to either swim or create a vessel to get to the city.

    - Hashan: City is surrounded by a chasm. Chasm filled with spectres. Path towards city is a thin stretch of landmass that can choke point an enemy. Walls that can be scaled (con).

    - Mhaldor: City is built to be a fortress. Has the potential to stretch out a siege. Walls that can be scaled (con). May have an issue with a naval assault from proximity to sea (con).

    - Targossas: Can attempt to make use of isles to stage defenses. Can attempt to tactically use bridges to slow enemy down. Proximity to sea makes a naval assault an issue (con). Isles may work against them for defensive purposes as well (con).

    - Ashtan: Allies of Thera in south could assist with a hammer and anvil concept. Proximity to sea makes a naval assault an issue (con). Walls that can be scaled (con).

    - Eleusis: No walls for defense purposes (con). Village built among trees which are not very resilient by nature (con). Troops able to enter from any direction (con).
  • JiraishinJiraishin skulking
    edited April 2019
    Achaea military tactics are entirely different from rl. If you try to exclude magic you're really talking about a different world  Think that deserves its own thread though,  definite derail potential there. 
    ________________________
    The soul of Ashmond says, "Always with the sniping."

    (Clan): Ictinus says, "Stop it Jiraishin, you're making me like you."
  • AsmodronAsmodron
    Jiraishin said:
    Achaea military tactics are entirely different from rl. If you try to exclude magic you're really talking about a different world  Think that deserves its own thread though,  definite derail potential there. 
    Indeed perhaps, though mostly we're considering it based on which city is easier to siege next but I see your point.

    Magic is generally best to avoid in a debate, because it can be used in an excuse for...well anything. How to solve x? Magic. What about Y? Magic. Thus it is far more logical to view it from more physical attributes.
  • JiraishinJiraishin skulking
    Achaea is super specific magic though. I don't think it's unfair to discuss tactics in context of known abilities and their known counters. 
    ________________________
    The soul of Ashmond says, "Always with the sniping."

    (Clan): Ictinus says, "Stop it Jiraishin, you're making me like you."
  • CooperCooper
    It is very fair to include magic, don't know why Asmodron is saying what he is.

    Most of his points can be countered by "already a known way to get around that easily".

    For example - Cyrene's lake is not even an annoyance. There is the carpet of flying (or whatever it's called) that lets your entourage fly. Or portal wands. Earrings. A ton of different adventurer abilities, etc.

  • ArchaeonArchaeon Ur mums house lol
    This is a stupid argument.  




    Cyrene is obviously the most defensible city. 
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User]
    edited April 2019
    Cooper said:
    It is very fair to include magic, don't know why Asmodron is saying what he is.

    Most of his points can be countered by "already a known way to get around that easily".

    For example - Cyrene's lake is not even an annoyance. There is the carpet of flying (or whatever it's called) that lets your entourage fly. Or portal wands. Earrings. A ton of different adventurer abilities, etc.
    Game mechanics aside, an Earth Lord could very easily juggernaut through their tunnel and smash a hole straight through the mountain. Who cares about a lake lol.
  • TasusTasus
    Pyori said:
    Cooper said:
    It is very fair to include magic, don't know why Asmodron is saying what he is.

    Most of his points can be countered by "already a known way to get around that easily".

    For example - Cyrene's lake is not even an annoyance. There is the carpet of flying (or whatever it's called) that lets your entourage fly. Or portal wands. Earrings. A ton of different adventurer abilities, etc.
    Game mechanics aside, an Earth Lord could very easily juggernaut through their tunnel and smash a hole straight through the mountain. Who cares about a lake lol.
    Earth Lords of Sapience (or just one) UNITE!!
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User]
    edited April 2019
    Jiraishin said:
    Achaea is super specific magic though. I don't think it's unfair to discuss tactics in context of known abilities and their known counters. 
    Especially not when Tsol'teth have been using a lot of magic this entire time, they literally used magic to break Cyrene's barrier. Shadowmancy is shadow magic. Their race are among the most powerful magic users in Sapience, discounting its use when we're talking about them sieging a city is... Silly at best.
  • ThaisenThaisen
    Silly...like thinking some cities would have fared substantially better against their invasion with some of the most powerful magic in all of Sapience....

    That kind of silly?  ;)
  • IloiseeIloisee
    Siduri said:
    Nahhh, paint yourself any way you want, but no one besides Mhaldor is buying it. Sorry!
    That used to bother me because we really aren't helping the Tsol'teth, even objectively. We kill them the same as you, we wreck Tide the same as you. We just don't hold back because we're not allied with the coalition or anyone, and I think that's how they want it too.

    However, I've realized ICly it makes sense so it's totally fine if the entire coalition has the wrong idea. :lol: I just recommend against diverting your resources to attack us because it will do nothing but potentially drain the resources of another Tsol'teth enemy.

    Ofc, this should all be said IC. But nobody asks to Iloisee! (Except her BAMF aunties.)
Sign In or Register to comment.