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Fixing Player Housing

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  • AlrenaAlrena
    Keorin said:
    I'm confused, how is prisming to someone in a private home -not- valid roleplay justification to attack/hire on that person?
    It is, if you're the one who was prismed to, I'd say. But not the person who's sitting there next to you when it happens and then told to leave. You could argue she was fishing for cause for sitting around clearly hostile combatants, refusing to leave after being warned.

    By the way if someone tells you "Leave", it's about the opposite of fishing for PK. It means you're obviously not a fighter, so we're telling you to get out so you don't get caught up in the crossfire! Had I known you were gonna hire, I would have killed you anyway though. I probably will if there's a next time!

    Also crap, I'm derailing now. What I mostly wanted to say is that knee-jerk reactions can be taken too far. I already said I agree house thieving has far too little risk on the thief's part to warrant the risk the house owner has. Furnishing could use a little love to mitigate it too, though if we only want to reduce the risk of dormancy costing everything, a housing upgrade to give an eye sigil effect at a sizable cost would settle it, without making the house impenetrable if you afk in it.
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  • KeorinKeorin
    If you use someone as a prism target, whether it's their home or someone else's, pretty sure that gives roleplay justification to attack. If insulting or threatening someone gives "cause", pretty sure using them as a prism target to break in is at least on that same level.

    Hiring an assassin just seems like a perfectly valid IC choice, to me.
  • LennLenn
    There were threats too. That was a key factor in my decision to hire on Alrena.

    If she broke in, bothered Keorin, but left me completely alone, I wouldn't have hired. :)
  • KietKiet
    lol              
  • AlrenaAlrena
    Keorin said:
    If you use someone as a prism target, whether it's their home or someone else's, pretty sure that gives roleplay justification to attack. If insulting or threatening someone gives "cause", pretty sure using them as a prism target to break in is at least on that same level.

    Hiring an assassin just seems like a perfectly valid IC choice, to me.
    Also considering you were the prism target, not Lenn. I know the message doesn't specify who is targetted, but assuming seems iffy too.

    I also don't recall any insults being slung, nor was it mentioned in the contract! I'm not mad about it or I'd have hunted Lenn down for it, but it does seem a bit weird to get hired on when I went out of my way to NOT attack someone, even when she's standing around with obvious hostiles. Attack me, sure. But getting hunted down by a Mark a week later for it is weird and I'm sure she'd find it just as weird if I went after her now, after all this time, over that contract. Even if I technically could.
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  • MinifieMinifie
    Antonius said:
    Keorin said:
    If you use someone as a prism target, whether it's their home or someone else's, pretty sure that gives roleplay justification to attack. If insulting or threatening someone gives "cause", pretty sure using them as a prism target to break in is at least on that same level.

    Hiring an assassin just seems like a perfectly valid IC choice, to me.
    Let's not start thinking that "justification to attack" is always the same thing as "justification to attack at a later time". I have roleplay justification to attack any city enemy who is currently inside Targossas, but I don't have roleplay justification to attack any city enemy who has been inside Targossas (no matter how recently), unless I'm actively chasing them from Targossas at the time or they perform some action inside that confers new roleplay justification (they commit an action worthy of a bounty which I pick up, they rob me, etc.).

    "I got prismed to inside a house" is maybe the former, but is definitely not the latter. You can attack them at the time, but you can't pursue them later on just for having been there. That seems like it should be obvious to everybody, and the opposite line of thinking should be obviously wrong to everybody, but apparently that's not the case. What should also be obvious is that Marks are for situations that fall into the latter group only.
    Can this be plastered on help files everywhere? Seriously, this level of common sense when it comes to cause has been missing from a lot of people.
  • MathildaMathilda
    Maybe it's because cause doesn't exist... :)

    Anyway, are you saying that you, personally, should be the one to deal with a home invader despite the fact that you might not be a PvPer yourself? That's a bit too skewed towards the benefit of the invader, again. Housing is then just a gigantic reason for PKers to go bait and frustrate noncom homeowners, because they'll be left to their own devices in dealing with problems.
     <3 
  • MinifieMinifie
    Mathilda said:
    Maybe it's because cause doesn't exist... :)

    Anyway, are you saying that you, personally, should be the one to deal with a home invader despite the fact that you might not be a PvPer yourself? That's a bit too skewed towards the benefit of the invader, again. Housing is then just a gigantic reason for PKers to go bait and frustrate noncom homeowners, because they'll be left to their own devices in dealing with problems.
    Call for help, get the city in there, or attack on site. Otherwise, bounties exist for a reason and work as a "mark" system for city crimes.
  • MathildaMathilda
    That might work for subs houses, but not for OOS plots. 
     <3 
  • MinifieMinifie
    Leave and hire or kill.
  • MathildaMathilda
    What? You just agreed to a post by Antonius which said that hiring/later pursuit was not an option for people whose homes have been invaded.
     <3 
  • KietKiet
    edited January 2018
    It wasn't her house, but as usual you missed most of the conversation.

    There is not, in fact, any universe where you can hire for someone else's house being broken into in a city you're not even a citizen of.
  • MinifieMinifie
    The AND insinuates you do one then the next step. There is a difference to sitting on cause for more than a day for something that should only give you rights to attack then and there. Had I attacked the times I've been attempted/succesfully stolen from 2 weeks later I'd look like an asshole. Take the necessary steps ASAP, not at your next leisure. 
  • MathildaMathilda
    The conversation has actually identified three different attributes in the scenario: (1) the owner of the house, (2) the person who was prismed, and (3) the companion of the prism-ee. In this specific case, 1 and 2 were the same person, but it was 3 who hired for the invasion. But Antonius's reply seems to have lumped them all together: you cannot at any point hire or pursue someone later for home invasion unless they specifically attacked you.

    Even then, Skye's position is all too true: this "great RP" that certain people are claiming to defend are too often only great for the one forcing himself into other peoples' affairs. If I wanted people to randomly come in and insert their presence into a conversation, I would have held it at a more public venue. But private housing should be secure should I wish for that option.

    Let's be honest: the biggest frustration of our bloodthirsty PKers is against people who use ships/temples to escape from repercussions. Do people actually support wholesale theft? If so, that's very disheartening. I poured a lot of my own time and effort into personalising my things, and to think that people think they have the right to take these from me is baffling.
     <3 
  • MinifieMinifie
    If cause is dead why are people hiring/killing longer than a few IG days later? I'm really confused, people act like RP reason means you can take that reason to kill them well down the line instead of close to that time frame. The entire point of cause removal was to make people take the attempt to kill there or let it go, not come back to it weeks later. This is the point I'm making, if you get broken into, don't call the cops 2 weeks later because you feel a bit vindictive that day. Take the time there and then and do it, or let it go.
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, Florida
    Skye said:

    Consider this scenario:

    Anna and Elsa are sitting in the pantry enjoying a lovely cup of tea and crumpets. They are sisters, so they are having family RP where they won't get interrupted by people logging in and deffing up/random NPCs or any of those other things. Also Anna spent a lot of money on the decor and furnishings, she wants to enjoy sitting on her chairs and piling food and teacups on the lovely table.

    All of a sudden, Hans prisms into the house. He obviously has no intention of leaving any time soon and has nothing to do with what was doing on 3 seconds ago. Instead, to the annoyance of Anna and Elsa, he proceeds to drop his pants and masturbate furiously by himself until he is satisfied. Elsa is disgusted and QQs. Anna is left trying to clean up the mess.
    Been through this so much. Skye you're a gem for representin'. I am both infuriated at the memories and laughing my butt off. <3
    And I love too                                                                          Be still, my indelible friend
    That love soon might end                                                         You are unbreaking
    And be known in its aching                                                      Though quaking
    Shown in this shaking                                                             Though crazy
    Lately of my wasteland, baby                                                 That's just wasteland, baby
  • LennLenn
    Just to be clear, I hired the mark about 30 minutes after the altercation ended. I can't say why it took a week for the contract to be fulfilled, as it was out of my hands at that point.

    One thing to keep in mind is that Lenn and Keorin are in a relationship, but there's no option at all for shared residence. Only one person can own a plot.
  • MinifieMinifie
    I don’t see the problem then, if you hired within an hour or two that’s fine, I am talking about waiting RL days to weeks to actually hire, or kill. 
  • TahquilTahquil
    No thanks to Dreadpilar guards.  :s 
  • LennLenn
    I personally find it a little hilarious how much the PK folk are complaining about a single death from a noncom who mainly just wants to be left alone. It's a beautifully ironic reversal.
  • KietKiet
    Lenn said:
    I personally find it a little hilarious how much the PK folk are complaining about a single death from a noncom who mainly just wants to be left alone. It's a beautifully ironic reversal.

    If she was truly upset she'd just have ganked you about it. The annoying part is more that you'd have not understood why you got ganked for it.
  • AlrenaAlrena
    Lenn said:
    Just to be clear, I hired the mark about 30 minutes after the altercation ended. I can't say why it took a week for the contract to be fulfilled, as it was out of my hands at that point.

    One thing to keep in mind is that Lenn and Keorin are in a relationship, but there's no option at all for shared residence. Only one person can own a plot.
    Still doesn't mean you could hire! You weren't prismed to and you were baiting us to attack you. We told you to leave. If you wanted to attack us then and there, fine. But hiring is pretty much paying to have someone killed "down the line". I don't agree you can hire on someone because they prismed to someone you were sharing a room with. I wouldn't have an issue if it had been Keorin who hired, since her name is on the plot and she was the one we prismed to! 

    That said, I usually leave the house in question because I do know I'm interrupting within a few minutes at the most. At the time to pick a fight, we were outside the subdivisions, no longer in the house itself. My main issue with this is that it's like hiring because your friend was ganked while bashing. You have every right and roleplay reason to defend your buddy (or their house!). But you don't get to jump someone for it later, and hiring someone is 100% paying someone to jump someone later, in your name!
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  • JacenJacen
    I have a lot of problems about what's being discussed, but one of the biggest ones is this distinction between, as you respond to an aggressor, what you can PK for and what you can hire a mark for.

    At this point, we're  basically outlining aggressive actions you can take and get off consequence free as long as the target/group are non-coms.
    image
  • AlrenaAlrena
    Jacen said:
    I have a lot of problems about what's being discussed, but one of the biggest ones is this distinction between, as you respond to an aggressor, what you can PK for and what you can hire a mark for.

    At this point, we're  basically outlining aggressive actions you can take and get off consequence free as long as the target/group are non-coms.
    In my opinion, you can hire for something if it's something that you'd think "Okay, I'd hunt that guy down for it if I had the ability to!". I also stated I'd be perfectly fine with it if Keorin was the one who hired, as it was -her- house! Victims can hire. Bystanders can't! In this case, relationship or not, Lenn was a bystander as she was not harmed in any way.
    image
  • LennLenn
    You didn't threaten to kill Keorin, you threatened to kill me. Personally. With a countdown at one point. Keorin had already left by this point.

    I don't understand why you expect I would attack three Mhaldorians on my own when each of you are better PvPers than me, all of you were raid-ready, and I playing on a phone.

    Given that you rudely interrupted me, despite me never doing the same to you, I don't understand why you'd expect me to play nicely.

    The fact you left to Muurn lake soon after I left also strongly implies you were staying there because I was still there, eg. to make good on your promise if I didn't leave or in hopes I would have struck first.

    Finally, if you threaten to kill someone, you should expect the opposite to be a possibility.
  • KietKiet
    You were told to leave so you didn't get mixed up in the coming battle with people that actually wanted to fight. Anything you interpreted beyond that is a persecution complex the size of Jupiter.
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, Florida
    All right guys, lets maybe move the PK discussion to rants or something. I don't want to see this thread shut down. It's too important!
    And I love too                                                                          Be still, my indelible friend
    That love soon might end                                                         You are unbreaking
    And be known in its aching                                                      Though quaking
    Shown in this shaking                                                             Though crazy
    Lately of my wasteland, baby                                                 That's just wasteland, baby
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