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Fixing Player Housing

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  • AccipiterAccipiter
    edited January 2018
    Lenn said:
    Who ever said a single person? o.o

    Even the private messaging of these forums supports as many people as I'd like.
    The existence of the bed as a product you can buy implicates that the level of privacy you are looking for is not supposed to be available freely.
  • LennLenn
    However, it is available freely, right now. Achaea being overpriced is nothing new. >>
  • AralayaAralaya
    Whether you like it or not, conflict is the driving force in this game. While I personally think there should be more security/display options in houses, asking for 100% secure anything is detrimental to the game.


    Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM

    teehee b.u.t.t. pirates
  • KyrraKyrra Australia
    You could get pillows from the Shop of Wonders that lets you add a third person to the bed. Problem solved.
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

  • JacenJacen
    Aegoth said:
    Lenn said:
    The one thing this discussion revealed to me is that some of the playerbase of this game feels extremely entitled to have free access to my free time and personal space without fear of consequence, when they should in fact not.

    Oh sweet summer child, how very very wrong you are. Achaea is a game of conflict. No one is safe from that risk, nor should they be.  
    I don't get why Lenn's wrong here... conflict requires either mutual agreement or an action and response. You don't get to PK me because I'm Hashani, or human, or anything passive like that. You get to PK me either because I want to have conflict with you, or I've taken actions that warrant it, like raiding or thieving or yelling insults. You don't have a right to enter into conflict with whoever you want. That's basic PK rules. (Treacherous planes excluded, obv)

    I mean, isn't that why we changed the raiding system away from summoning sparks? You don't get to demand the time of other people without either their consent or them doing something that warranted your response.


    image
  • LennLenn
    Want another secret? It's not conflict that drives this game, it's money, variety, and a large and loyal playerbase. :)

    A lot of those players are rather like me in that they'd like to be left out of PvP partially or entirely. I doubt most PvPers want to be connected to conflict 100% of the time they log in, given the number of complaints about people logging out or hiding on a ship when conflict starts.
  • TorinnTorinn
    You seem to be under the impression that PK is the only form of conflict, which is incorrect.
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
  • LennLenn
    That's a rather vague statement, how does it refute anything I've said?

    I understand, for some weird forum mob mentality reason, you want to disagree with me and paint me as a villain, but at this point, what has that got to do with not wanting more secure houses?
  • KietKiet
    edited January 2018
    Sometimes (most times) people disagree with opinions because they find them lacking, rather than because there's some sort of alliance to hate on the opinion-haver.
  • JarrodJarrod
    I don't think you can rightly comment on driving factors of the game, or what might be best for them, while simultaneously advocating out of game communication as a medium for any form of actual RP.
    I see no reason to bother with a house for privacy when it'd take much less time and resources to just take any private RP outside the game.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • AralayaAralaya
    edited January 2018
    Without conflict Achaea is a chat room with pretty colors.

    Edit: also like I said, I'm in favour of more secure housing. I'm not in favour of perfectly secure housing.


    Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM

    teehee b.u.t.t. pirates
  • LennLenn
    edited January 2018
    Going to have to explain to me how ignoring a factor like that makes me less ignorant.

    Did I say people not being logged in was good for the game?

    It's bad for the game. I thought that was clear.

    Edit: This is to Jarrod, who relied upon an ad hominem, not Aralaya, who makes an interesting point that I still disagree with. I'd ask Aralaya why perfectly secure housing is bad when the concept of always-on PVP in most MMOs got relegated to opt-in servers decades ago.
  • AralayaAralaya
    edited January 2018
    Achaea isn't always on pvp though. I can't just run around killing people (mostly due to a lack of ability) whenever I want. There are rules against killing people.
    As to how to make housing not 100% secure yet still not allow someone to completely clean you out, I don't know. I haven't spent much time on figuring out the how, but I assume many people here have ideas on the subject.

    Edit: I totally sympathize with people wanting perfectly secure housing, I've had things stolen from mine that I didn't really want to lose, I just think it would be bad for the game imo


    Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM

    teehee b.u.t.t. pirates
  • JarrodJarrod
    Achaea is a world of interactions. The exchange of information, be it as simple as a conversation between IC relatives/couples/cities to sharing city secrets, is subject to the same rules as the real world. If you're not in a secure area you're subject to eavesdropping or other means of listening, but you can take extra time to increase your security at the risk of other factors. One of the biggest reasons spying is so stupid in Achaea is that in almost all cases the spy is just ferrying information OOCly. Using OOC means to discuss information that will be used IC is basically one of the biggest things you can do to fuck over Achaea as an interesting world. That's what you were advocating.

    I've seen lots of people discuss things OOC, but the actual good RPers have a similar conversation IC to match their plans. You advocating OOC means as the method for private RP means you really don't understand enough of the game to comment on what is good or is not.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, Florida
    Another note is that conflict does not always equal PK. Conflict is define as to "be incompatible or at variance; clash". While of course PK is a ferry for many types of conflict, there's also conflict found in political schemes, in someone turning traitor to join another cause, in many of our event storylines, from the recent cause of Pazuzu, to the Tsol'teth, and back further and further. Conflict is also found in our own personal stories, through things we as players create, whether on a grand or simply small scale. 

    Suffice to say, conflict is not only what drives Achaea, it's what drives storytelling. It is the backbone of our little community.
    And I love too                                                                          Be still, my indelible friend
    That love soon might end                                                         You are unbreaking
    And be known in its aching                                                      Though quaking
    Shown in this shaking                                                             Though crazy
    Lately of my wasteland, baby                                                 That's just wasteland, baby
  • LennLenn
    Another ad hominem. Allow me to respond in kind.

    You just pointed out that OOC spying is common-place, thereby normalising it. As we both agree it's bad for the game, and you just promoted a bad-for-the-game activity, and therefore YOU are bad for the game.

    All your points are thus wrong.
  • AegothAegoth
    What Jarrod said is not an ad hominem. This is an ad hominem: You're a psychopath
  • JarrodJarrod
    I did not point out that OOC spying is common place. I said in the real world, people are spied on, as in the game world. I'm not sure why you're taking a stand that you weren't vastly in the wrong for suggesting OOC mediums for private RP.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • JacenJacen
    PK is a subset of conflict, sure, but a pervasive one. I'd wager that the vast majority of conflict that isn't intra-factional involves PK at some scale. 

    The other forms of conflict mentioned (political schemes, turning traitor, etc) require a form of opt-in to the conflict, just like PK does. The only conflict that really doesn't require opt-in is tresspassing/theft, which is why its such a sore subject. 

    I'd like for player-housing and House housing to be 100% secure. I think we'd see a substantial increase in org-RP and personal RP, and an uptick in the market of collectable but stealable items. Personally, the only reason I never bought a house was because of the maintenance/liability of using one.

    100% security should, of course, be subject to the same concerns that exist for ships now: namely, you shouldn't be able to do something worth getting killed over, and then run and hide from the consequences.
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  • AralayaAralaya
    Nicola said:
    I'm not going to weigh in on subjects like theft, but ships are not where we want them to be at the moment. They simply aren't changed because we haven't settled on the best course of action for everyone, please don't base player housing expansion on ships as they stand.



    Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM

    teehee b.u.t.t. pirates
  • LennLenn
    Forum quoting is a pain in the ass so here you go:

    "One of the biggest reasons spying is so stupid in Achaea is that in almost all cases the spy is just ferrying information OOCly" and don't forget "I've seen lots of people discuss things OOC".


    My refutation was that this is an ad hominem:

    "You advocating OOC means as the method for private RP means you really don't understand enough of the game to comment on what is good or is not."
  • JacenJacen
    My player-housing stance isn't relative to how ships currently exist or could exist in the future, its just subject to the same concerns people currently have for ships. If ships changed tomorrow, it would be subject to the concerns people formerly had for ships. They can do whatever they want with ships, it likely won't change my stance on player-housing.
    image
  • LennLenn
    Anyhow, between my liberal posting and your collective desire to prove me wrong on any point you can think of, I've successfully steered and dominated this thread for far too long*. I'll leave a final point for consideration.

    The success of cities without a basis in conflict suggests not everyone logs in or plays for that conflict. Certainly, people enjoy it, and I'm not implying they shouldn't be able to, but rather that people who don't want it ought to not have to suffer it.

    The popularity of ships implies people do want security and privacy on that level. Here's the thing: when an enemy you really want to kill hides on a ship, they're still logged in. They're still providing and interacting with the game's community.

    If they log off, they aren't.

    I think it's incorrect to assume people want conflict first and foremost. I think the most important thing people want is community, and then some people (perhaps even a majority) want conflict. Fewer still want consequence, as demonstrated by the oft-complained unwillingness to lose. :)

    Even the admins acknowledged this fine balance by not blatantly nerfing ships. @Nicola indicated they want to, but it's very difficult to take something away that many people want. Any lack of security, no matter how fine, will have to be scrutinised carefully.

    I'm sure you'll find something to disagree with in this post, but I think I've said everything I have to say, so I'll be bowing out now. I hope your discussions will be more productive without my presence. :)

    (*This is kind of a twisted joke. Have a sense of humour. :) )
  • GawiGawi Washington
    Nicola said:
    I'm not going to weigh in on subjects like theft, but ships are not where we want them to be at the moment. They simply aren't changed because we haven't settled on the best course of action for everyone, please don't base player housing expansion on ships as they stand.

    In regards to preservation of items, players do have to pay for this in some fashion (ice figurines or credits) because there is something of a load on the server created by the sheer number of items in the game. Simple ways that create mass preservation effects for gold or very little effort are very unlikely to be added to the game beyond what exists now.
    @Nicola Ok.... what about housing?

  • KeorinKeorin
    I think the trouble is that prisming into a house and interrupting/stealing/whatever is one of the few sorts of things you're allowed to do to anyone just for the hell of it. And that's definitely a big difference between player housing and just sticking to a guardstack.

    If I'm remembering right, the last time they tried to make prisming onto ships a thing, it was stated that you'd need to have roleplay justification for doing so, just like if you were going to attack. Much as I hate more restrictive pk rules, I feel like applying a restriction like that to prisming into homes might do a lot to make them more secure, without letting them act as a place to hide away from any sort of danger.

    The big issues here aren't really death, after all (which is a minor inconvenience), but random, unprovoked interruption, theft, and nearly uncounterable spying with synaptic. I think if housing was more secure against those, you'd definitely see more use.
  • ReysonReyson
    Has anyone really argued against better (more secure) containers and some kind of telepathy block (not just a privacy upgrade, but all the other things you can do with telepathy), though? 
  • KeorinKeorin
    Look, if it takes as much complaining to get synaptic lock nerfed as it did to get veils changed, I want to start early.
  • ShimiShimi
    Melodie said:

    Suffice to say, conflict is not only what drives Achaea, it's what drives storytelling. It is the backbone of our little community.
    This here quote along with basically most of what @Skye said is actually exactly why I would agree with @Lenn. The thing is that sometimes stories in this game are NOT grand epic scale, nor are they city-state community scale or even something shared specific to an organization. Some of my characters best memories of of “day to day” get togethers and interactions with her friends and family. -Most- of which took place in back corners, private homes, and ships. Whether or not someone else feels entitled to start conflict with me or someone I am interacting with, we should have the right to opt in or out. My character is only part of one organization and yes, she believes “conflict” of its many varieties drives life forwards, but that doesn’t take away her right to say no, not right now. 
    In summation: I think houses need improvement to become better, safe (not necessarily 100% impenetrable) environments where we can gather cool stuff to share with our families/friends/orgs to build stories... But as with so many social issues in game and in real life, it’s all about consent ya’ll.
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