PvE Analysis

Comments

• Shirszae Santo Domingo

  July 2017

  Did you use focus speed alongside 2h's slaughter? It saves at least a whole second.

  And you won't understand the cause of your grief...

  
  

  ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

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• Mindshell

  July 2017

  Shirszae said:

  Did you use focus speed alongside 2h's slaughter? It saves at least a whole second.

  
  Yeah, the slaughter attacks are with focus speed.

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• Solnir

  July 2017

  I'm honestly surprised at how 'low' DWB is on the Runewarden list. I always thought it was DWC > DWB > 2h > > > > > > SnB at max arties.

  

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• Cooper

  July 2017

  When did you get the dragon numbers? What you have is pretty far off what I have.
  
  I'm not at home so this isn't exact, but I have Thoth's being around 15% faster than gut, and gut being 15% faster than incantation.

  
  

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• Reyson

  July 2017

  The stat for SnB bashing is fucking depressing
  

  3
• Dochitha

  July 2017

  For the record, only DWC is affected by STR, DWB, 2H, SNB are all not affected by STR. I believe it's unintended, and if this is adjusted they should all come back on par.

  

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• Mathilda

  July 2017

  Mindshell said:

  
  Control subject - a little girl (Tasur'ke)
  

  you MONSTER

    

  7
• Dochitha

  July 2017 edited July 2017

  Mathilda said:

  Mindshell said:

  
  Control subject - a little girl (Tasur'ke)
  

  you MONSTER

  This test subject is a tough one, I saw how Mindshell spent lengthy amount of time to get these figures, and also, confirming them again and again for consistency. Not to mention, these little girls die on crit, often having to wait for respawn to continue. @Mindshell monster rocks.
  

  

  2
• Sobriquet

  July 2017

  Dochitha said:

  For the record, only DWC is affected by STR, DWB, 2H, SNB are all not affected by STR. I believe it's unintended, and if this is adjusted they should all come back on par.

  Are you sure? I was hitting for more % on Mhuns when using a +1 gauntlet than I was without. Admittedly there wasn't a huge amount of testing as it was borrowed. 

  

  
  

  (Party): Mezghar says, "Stop."

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• Rault

  July 2017

  Some of your maths might be off.
  

  Mindshell said:

  
  

  BLADEMASTER
  Drawslash (unstanced)
  34.00% dmg, 1.98b (2.20), 17.17% p/s
  Drawslash (doya)
  37.00% dmg, 2.48b (2.75), 14.92% p/s
  Drawslash (thyr)
  29.00% dmg, 1.76b (1.95), 16.48% p/s
  Drawslash (mir)
  32.00% dmg, 2.48b (2.75), 12.90% p/s
  Drawslash (arash)
  38.50% dmg, 1.80b (2.00), 21.39% p/s
  Drawslash (sanya)
  35.00% dmg, 1.94b (2.15), 16.28% p/s
  Burst
  40.00% dmg, 3.06e (4.00), 13.07% p/s

  I was wondering why if unstanced did less damage and was a little slower than sanya, why it was doing more p/s.
  For unstanced, you divided by the number outside of parenthesis:
  34.00 / 1.98 = 17.17
  
  But for Sanya, you divided by the number inside the parenthesis:
  35.00 / 2.15 = 16.28
  
  Actually, looking at all of them, they all use the number outside the parenthesis, except sanya, which artificially reduces its p/s.
  Might want to check the rest to make sure the right number is used.
  

  1
• Accipiter

  July 2017

  Cooper said:

  When did you get the dragon numbers? What you have is pretty far off what I have.
  
  I'm not at home so this isn't exact, but I have Thoth's being around 15% faster than gut, and gut being 15% faster than incantation.

  Not having crits included would throw off the benefit of the faster hitting attacks right? Maybe it is an artifact of the data?

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• Mindshell

  July 2017

  Rault said:

  Some of your maths might be off.
  

  Mindshell said:

  
  

  BLADEMASTER
  Drawslash (unstanced)
  34.00% dmg, 1.98b (2.20), 17.17% p/s
  Drawslash (doya)
  37.00% dmg, 2.48b (2.75), 14.92% p/s
  Drawslash (thyr)
  29.00% dmg, 1.76b (1.95), 16.48% p/s
  Drawslash (mir)
  32.00% dmg, 2.48b (2.75), 12.90% p/s
  Drawslash (arash)
  38.50% dmg, 1.80b (2.00), 21.39% p/s
  Drawslash (sanya)
  35.00% dmg, 1.94b (2.15), 16.28% p/s
  Burst
  40.00% dmg, 3.06e (4.00), 13.07% p/s

  I was wondering why if unstanced did less damage and was a little slower than sanya, why it was doing more p/s.
  For unstanced, you divided by the number outside of parenthesis:
  34.00 / 1.98 = 17.17
  
  But for Sanya, you divided by the number inside the parenthesis:
  35.00 / 2.15 = 16.28
  
  Actually, looking at all of them, they all use the number outside the parenthesis, except sanya, which artificially reduces its p/s.
  Might want to check the rest to make sure the right number is used.
  

  It's an error, it should be:
  Drawslash (sanya)
  35.00% dmg, 1.94b (2.15), 18.04% p/s
  
  There's no reason to be hunting unstanced as blademaster.
  
  
  

  Cooper said:

  When did you get the dragon numbers? What you have is pretty far off what I have.
  
  I'm not at home so this isn't exact, but I have Thoth's being around 15% faster than gut, and gut being 15% faster than incantation.

  Roughly within the last month and a half.
  
  
  

  Mathilda said:

  Mindshell said:

  
  Control subject - a little girl (Tasur'ke)
  

  you MONSTER

  Never fear, for my next project I'll be experimenting on toy dragons.
  

  2
• Xylon

  July 2017 edited July 2017

  Shortsword does more than SnB combination?
  
  So slashing with a shortsword and SoA would be better than longsword/broadsword combination?
  
  

  Accipiter said:

  Cooper said:

  When did you get the dragon numbers? What you have is pretty far off what I have.
  
  I'm not at home so this isn't exact, but I have Thoth's being around 15% faster than gut, and gut being 15% faster than incantation.

  Not having crits included would throw off the benefit of the faster hitting attacks right? Maybe it is an artifact of the data?
  
  

  The only benefits to faster attacks, as it relates to crits, is less overkill when they're low health. Offset somewhat by the fact you'll have more chance to crit (and thus overkill) on low health mobs since you bring them lower before the kill.

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• Mindshell

  July 2017

  Xylon said:

  Shortsword does more than SnB combination?
  
  So slashing with a shortsword and SoA would be better than longsword/broadsword combination?
  

  Did a bit more testing:
  
  Logosian Longsword - basic attack
  24.50% dmg, 2.66b (2.95),  9.21% p/s
  Logosian Longsword - basic attack (fury)
  25.50% dmg, 2.66b (2.95),  9.59% p/s
  Logosian Broadsword - basic attack
  29.50% dmg, 3.15b (3.50),  9.37% p/s
  Logosian Broadsword - basic attack (fury)
  30.50% dmg, 3.15b (3.50),  9.68% p/s
  
  Confirms that at that strength value it's more effective for SnB to hunt with a shortsword due to the non-scaling of combination. Keep in mind that weaponmastery has swordplay, which I should've mentioned was a factor in my shortsword data, so it's also outperforming longsword and broadsword basic attacks regardless of strength.
  

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• Xylon

  July 2017 edited July 2017

  Mindshell said:

  Xylon said:

  Shortsword does more than SnB combination?
  
  So slashing with a shortsword and SoA would be better than longsword/broadsword combination?
  

  Did a bit more testing:
  
  Logosian Longsword - basic attack
  24.50% dmg, 2.66b (2.95),  9.21% p/s
  Logosian Longsword - basic attack (fury)
  25.50% dmg, 2.66b (2.95),  9.59% p/s
  Logosian Broadsword - basic attack
  29.50% dmg, 3.15b (3.50),  9.37% p/s
  Logosian Broadsword - basic attack (fury)
  30.50% dmg, 3.15b (3.50),  9.68% p/s
  
  Confirms that at that strength value it's more effective for SnB to hunt with a shortsword due to the non-scaling of combination. Keep in mind that weaponmastery has swordplay, which I should've mentioned was a factor in my shortsword data, so it's also outperforming longsword and broadsword basic attacks regardless of strength.
  

  Makes me wonder if it's just the lack of scaling that creates the issue.
  
  Would it be possible to check 12 str shortsword and 12 str, say, dsl? To compare non-scaled damage.
  
  Did you submit a bug on the lack of scaling? I can if not. My hunting partner was considering SnB but in light of this, that seems like a terrible idea.

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• Micaelis

  July 2017

  Cooper said:

  When did you get the dragon numbers? What you have is pretty far off what I have.
  
  I'm not at home so this isn't exact, but I have Thoth's being around 15% faster than gut, and gut being 15% faster than incantation.

  I don't have Mindshell's stats for dragon, but at 19 strength, iirc, Thoth's is roughly half of gut damage at >50% of the speed (1.8 vs 3). And gut seemed to scale better with +str in all the testing we did, leading to a doubling of damage at 23 in less than 2x the time. Been a while since Thoth's > gut. 

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• Micaelis

  July 2017

  You could ask Penwize, if he were still around. He and I looked into a while back when they scaled it back, probably a year or so ago, and with my base strength stats gut > thoth, and with his +str stats gut >> thoth.

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• Cooper

  July 2017

  I tested within the last two months. Maybe my morphing weapon is special. 

  
  

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• Micaelis

  July 2017 edited July 2017

  Well, you're obviously a power ranger, so rest of us can't compare. But test it up when you get a chance and post what you find. I don't have data in front of my face, but you'd need to see a pretty noticeable damage profile with Thoth's to overcome the 1.8 to 3.0 balance times. From all my previous testing (which is a bit out of date, being a year old) Thoth's at 19 was right below 50% of gut, and as strength went up the distance grew larger. 
  
  EDIT: 1.9 to 3.0 balance times, not 1.8 to 3.0. 

  1
• Cooper

  July 2017

  I'd normally do a more thorough test, but I'm exhausted and just don't want to spend the energy.
  
  

  (p) 9654h, 9700m, 42375e, 38919w  

  Your aura of weapons rebounding disappears.

  Lightning-quick, you jab a local rascal with Thoth's fang.

  Shock and anger filling his face, a local rascal kicks you hard in the shin.

  (p) 9546h, 9700m, 42371e, 38925w rascal7690 75%(-108h, 1.1%) 
  
  

  (p) 9545h, 9700m, 42371e, 38925w rascal7690 75%

  You rip into a local rascal with your massive, deadly claws.

  (p) 9654h, 9746m, 42335e, 38925w rascal7690 36%(+109h, 1.1%, +46m, 0.5%) 
  
  21 strength, dragonform, morphing weapon Thoth's fang
  
  Thoth jab did 25% @ 1.9s = 13.16%/s
  
  Gut did 39% @ 3.0s = 13.00%/s
  
  My number for Thoth's fang from test server before was 1.8s, but I used your 1.9s number just in case that has changed. If it is 1.8s still...
  
  Thoth jab did 25% 1.8s = 13.89%/s
  
  Here are my previous numbers from testing vs. buckawn:
  
  

  13.14%/hit

  1.8s

  7.3%/s

  
  

  Gut:

  20.33%/hit

  3.00s

  6.78%/s

  
  

  2
• Antonius

  July 2017

  @Cooper What stats do you have on your thoth's? Is it possible the morphing is still giving old thoth stats?

  

  Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files

  0
• Mindshell

  July 2017

  Xylon said:

  Mindshell said:

  Xylon said:

  Shortsword does more than SnB combination?
  
  So slashing with a shortsword and SoA would be better than longsword/broadsword combination?
  

  Did a bit more testing:
  
  Logosian Longsword - basic attack
  24.50% dmg, 2.66b (2.95),  9.21% p/s
  Logosian Longsword - basic attack (fury)
  25.50% dmg, 2.66b (2.95),  9.59% p/s
  Logosian Broadsword - basic attack
  29.50% dmg, 3.15b (3.50),  9.37% p/s
  Logosian Broadsword - basic attack (fury)
  30.50% dmg, 3.15b (3.50),  9.68% p/s
  
  Confirms that at that strength value it's more effective for SnB to hunt with a shortsword due to the non-scaling of combination. Keep in mind that weaponmastery has swordplay, which I should've mentioned was a factor in my shortsword data, so it's also outperforming longsword and broadsword basic attacks regardless of strength.
  

  Makes me wonder if it's just the lack of scaling that creates the issue.
  
  Would it be possible to check 12 str shortsword and 12 str, say, dsl? To compare non-scaled damage.
  
  Did you submit a bug on the lack of scaling? I can if not. My hunting partner was considering SnB but in light of this, that seems like a terrible idea.

  Looking to finish collating the high end currently, comparing base values is the next logical step though.
  
  

  Cooper said:

  I'd normally do a more thorough test, but I'm exhausted and just don't want to spend the energy.
  
  

  (p) 9654h, 9700m, 42375e, 38919w  

  Your aura of weapons rebounding disappears.

  Lightning-quick, you jab a local rascal with Thoth's fang.

  Shock and anger filling his face, a local rascal kicks you hard in the shin.

  (p) 9546h, 9700m, 42371e, 38925w rascal7690 75%(-108h, 1.1%) 
  
  

  (p) 9545h, 9700m, 42371e, 38925w rascal7690 75%

  You rip into a local rascal with your massive, deadly claws.

  (p) 9654h, 9746m, 42335e, 38925w rascal7690 36%(+109h, 1.1%, +46m, 0.5%) 
  
  21 strength, dragonform, morphing weapon Thoth's fang
  
  Thoth jab did 25% @ 1.9s = 13.16%/s
  
  Gut did 39% @ 3.0s = 13.00%/s
  
  My number for Thoth's fang from test server before was 1.8s, but I used your 1.9s number just in case that has changed. If it is 1.8s still...
  
  Thoth jab did 25% 1.8s = 13.89%/s
  
  Here are my previous numbers from testing vs. buckawn:
  
  

  13.14%/hit

  1.8s

  7.3%/s

  
  

  Gut:

  20.33%/hit

  3.00s

  6.78%/s

  Thanks Cooper, I'm investigating some inconsistencies to see if I can clear this up.
  

  0
• Mindshell

  July 2017

  Not entirely sure what to make of this other than lesserform class is impacting dragon hunting. I also don't remember which class I was when I first tested this.

  
  Lightning-quick, you jab a little girl with Thoth's fang.
  [Rage]: +3.8. Total: 3.8
  A little girl is a humble-looking creature.
  She has 70% health remaining.
  A little girl has visited the Halls of Death recently.

  
  ..
  
  

  lesserformed to shaman
  
  

  ..
  
  

  class switched to runewarden
  
  

  ..
  
  

  dragonformed again
  
  

  ..
  
  

  A little girl is a humble-looking creature.
  She has 70% health remaining.
  A little girl has visited the Halls of Death recently.
  Your aura of weapons rebounding disappears.
  Lightning-quick, you jab a little girl with Thoth's fang.
  [Rage]: +3.8. Total: 3.8
  A little girl is a humble-looking creature.
  She has 45% health remaining.
  A little girl has visited the Halls of Death recently.
  
  --
  Regarding jab balance time, if you've got test server at 1.8 then I'm happy to use that. I expect there to be some margin for error in my results.
  

  1
• Cooper

  July 2017

  I'll jump on test server next time it's up and allowing us on.

  
  

  0
• Micaelis

  July 2017

  Wow, so you're getting variable stats on the Thoth's with the only visible variable being your lesserform class? O.o. I'll do some testing too, see what I come up with.

  1
• Antonius

  July 2017

  Each class has a modifier for denizen damage based on its (unartied) tanking ability. Sounds like that's being applied even when in dragonform, which as far as bugs go isn't that surprising.
  

  

  Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files

  1
• Cooper

  July 2017

  Ohhhh, that makes sense.
  
  I wonder if that affects gut too. I'll have to test later. 

  
  

  0
• Micaelis

  July 2017 edited July 2017

  First, the balance times. After taking over a hundred samples of both, given that there's some variance no matter how many times you do it, the average balance time for Thoth's was 1.87187 seconds, and gut was 2.9301. Strength is 19. 
  
  Testing on multiple subjects, my results were (I forget which denizens, so I'll just call them Cases):
  
  Case 1: Gut, barely
  
  Thoth's: 2.5 @ 1.87187 = 1.3356 %/s
  Gut: 4.0 @ 2.9301 = 1.3651 %/s
  
  Case 2: Gut
  
  Thoth's: 2.9 @ 1.87187 = 1.5493 %/s
  Gut: 4.8 @ 2.9301 = 1.6382 %/s
  
  Case 3: Gut, barely
  
  Thoth's 9.5 @ 1.87187 = 5.0751 %/s
  Gut: 14.9 @ 2.9301 = 5.0852 %/s
  
  Case 4: Thoth's, barely
  
  Thoth's: 4.08 @ 1.87187 = 2.1796 %/s
  Gut: 6.36 @ 2.9301 = 2.1706 %/s
  
  Case 4: Gut
  
  Thoth's: 3.307 @ 1.87187 = 1.7671 %/s
  Gut: 5.429 @ 2.9301 = 1.8527 %/s
  
  Case 5: Gut, barely
  
  Thoth's: 8.294 @ 1.87187 = 4.43 %/s
  Gut: 13 @ 2.9301 = 4.44 %/s
  
  Case 6: Thoth's
  
  Thoth's: 22.8 @ 1.87187 = 12.18 %/s
  Gut: 35.0 @ 2.9301 = 11.945 %/s
  
  Case 7: Thoth's 
  
  Thoth's: 24.57 @ 1.87187 = 13.127 %/s
  Gut: 38.1 @ 2.9301 = 13.003 %/s
  
  Tried to test a wide variety, with as many samples as I could possibly get, and as exact as I could possibly get, but that's what I came up with. That's at 19 strength, but to me it looks damn closer than I thought it would be. The fact that Thoth's seemed to pull ahead on the lower health pools, given that that's more accurate, leads me to believe that it might be faster than gut, only if by a little bit. My conclusion is, at 19 strength at least, use Thoth's if you have it, but it's not worth buying it for bashing if you don't already have it.
  
  I'm not sure how it would fluctuate as you go up in strength.
  
  EDIT: Given the bug potential talked about above, this was going Dform from Serpent, going back down to Serpent, Dforming again.

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• Antonius

  July 2017

  Micaelis said:

  First, the balance times. After taking over a hundred samples of both, given that there's some variance no matter how many times you do it, the average balance time for Thoth's was 1.87187 seconds, and gut was 2.9301. Strength is 19. 
  
  Testing on multiple subjects, my results were (I forget which denizens, so I'll just call them Cases):
  
  Case 1: Gut, barely
  
  Thoth's: 2.5 @ 1.87187 = 1.3356 %/s
  Gut: 4.0 @ 2.9301 = 1.3651 %/s
  
  Case 2: Gut
  
  Thoth's: 2.9 @ 1.87187 = 1.5493 %/s
  Gut: 4.8 @ 2.9301 = 1.6382 %/s
  
  Case 3: Gut, barely
  
  Thoth's 9.5 @ 1.87187 = 5.0751 %/s
  Gut: 14.9 @ 2.9301 = 5.0852 %/s
  
  Case 4: Thoth's, barely
  
  Thoth's: 4.08 @ 1.87187 = 2.1796 %/s
  Gut: 6.36 @ 2.9301 = 2.1706 %/s
  
  Case 4: Gut
  
  Thoth's: 3.307 @ 1.87187 = 1.7671 %/s
  Gut: 5.429 @ 2.9301 = 1.8527 %/s
  
  Case 5: Gut, barely
  
  Thoth's: 8.294 @ 1.87187 = 4.43 %/s
  Gut: 13 @ 2.9301 = 4.44 %/s
  
  Case 6: Thoth's
  
  Thoth's: 22.8 @ 1.87187 = 12.18 %/s
  Gut: 35.0 @ 2.9301 = 11.945 %/s
  
  Case 7: Thoth's 
  
  Thoth's: 24.57 @ 1.87187 = 13.127 %/s
  Gut: 38.1 @ 2.9301 = 13.003 %/s
  
  Tried to test a wide variety, with as many samples as I could possibly get, and as exact as I could possibly get, but that's what I came up with. That's at 19 strength, but to me it looks damn closer than I thought it would be. The fact that Thoth's seemed to pull ahead on the lower health pools, given that that's more accurate, leads me to believe that it might be faster than gut, only if by a little bit. My conclusion is, at 19 strength at least, use Thoth's if you have it, but it's not worth buying it for bashing if you don't already have it.
  
  I'm not sure how it would fluctuate as you go up in strength.
  
  EDIT: Given the bug potential talked about above, this was going Dform from Serpent, going back down to Serpent, Dforming again.

  Going from memory, Serpent has one of the better modifiers (it's not great at tanking unartied), so if the bug (if there is one) is only affecting jab, and not the dragon attacks, then thoth's would appear to be better than it actually should be.
  

  

  Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files

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• Micaelis

  July 2017

  Highly possible. What are some of the worst modifiers? Can get Mindshell to test a wide variety dforming from there and see if there's a noticeable difference.

  0