Multiclass (It's here!)

Silvarien · September 2015

@Tecton : There's some mechanics stuff that's interesting:

1. If somebody is Runewarden and Paladin or Runewarden and Infernal, do they use the same Falcon for both? Or does each class require the person to get a new falcon?

and

2. I edited this into another post but it wasn't seen in time to answer: if a Devotionist is both Priest and Paladin, how does the Bloodsworn function work for him or her? Does he or she get one Bloodsworn partner for Priest and another for Paladin? Could two Devotionists who each have both Priest and Paladin have each other as the Bloodsworn for both classes?

Thanks!

Sena · September 2015

Cynlael said:

Omg new traits too!

What are the new traits? I only see the old ones, with a couple missing (presumably just a bug caused by the change).

Naverre · September 2015

Triage at least. I don't remember Health Weaver or Mana Weaver, either. Those two add 2% from what I've seen, not sure how good Triage is.

Also, not sure if the fire/cold/electric/poison resist traits were there before or not. Been forever since I looked at minor traits.

Sena · September 2015

Oh, it seems that it basically reverted to before announce 3792. The new traits are gone and the old traits returned.

Cynlael · September 2015

Triage is 5% I think. Receptive body/mind also stack with robust/improved physique etc.

Runewardens back to being tanky beasts (tankier, even)

Trevize · September 2015

---[ OOC ANNOUNCEMENT ]-----------------------------( 2015/09/28 04:21:30 )---

Looks like there's some traits that are missing, and some old ones that have sprung back

up! We're working in a fix for these at the moment.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Naverre · September 2015

---[ OOC ANNOUNCEMENT ]-----------------------------( 2015/09/28 04:21:30 )---
Looks like there's some traits that are missing, and some old ones that have sprung back up! We're 
working in a fix for these at the moment.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think they made the trait system able to be used for multiclass in this way all the way back before they changed traits around, so when it got put in now it was using the old data.

Trevize · September 2015

Overall, after reading over the posts and considering it, I'm VERY pleased with how Multiclass was handled.

IC justification for me is easy - I've always seen classes for adventurers as as esoteric magicky thing anyways. Hence learning/changing/etc. Getting the artie for it makes it even easier - using the shard/chip/stone to 'store' and 'retrieve' a lifetime of knowledge in your skills seems very viable.

My suggestion, @Tecton or whoever, would be to make it so as soon as anyone gets level 80 (or uses bound credits to buy another slot) - give them a 'sliver' of the lorewarden that acts like a level 0 artie - that they can then upgrade. Makes IC justification super simple.

Trey · September 2015

Aelios said:

ANNOUNCE NEWS #4430 (09/28/2015 at 02:21)
From : Tecton the Terraformer
To : Everyone
Subject: Multiclass is here!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bluef · September 2015

Trevize said:

Overall, after reading over the posts and considering it, I'm VERY pleased with how Multiclass was handled.

IC justification for me is easy - I've always seen classes for adventurers as as esoteric magicky thing anyways. Hence learning/changing/etc. Getting the artie for it makes it even easier - using the shard/chip/stone to 'store' and 'retrieve' a lifetime of knowledge in your skills seems very viable.

My suggestion, @Tecton or whoever, would be to make it so as soon as anyone gets level 80 (or uses bound credits to buy another slot) - give them a 'sliver' of the lorewarden that acts like a level 0 artie - that they can then upgrade. Makes IC justification super simple.

This is such an excellent suggestion. Great thoughts, Trevize! I shall put them to good use and hope for that Level 0 artefact to make it all come true (if not, I'll use a runestone, which would be so fitting for Bluef). Thanks for the idea!

Trevize · September 2015

Bluef said:

Trevize said:

Overall, after reading over the posts and considering it, I'm VERY pleased with how Multiclass was handled.

IC justification for me is easy - I've always seen classes for adventurers as as esoteric magicky thing anyways. Hence learning/changing/etc. Getting the artie for it makes it even easier - using the shard/chip/stone to 'store' and 'retrieve' a lifetime of knowledge in your skills seems very viable.

My suggestion, @Tecton or whoever, would be to make it so as soon as anyone gets level 80 (or uses bound credits to buy another slot) - give them a 'sliver' of the lorewarden that acts like a level 0 artie - that they can then upgrade. Makes IC justification super simple.

This is such an excellent suggestion. Great thoughts, Trevize! I shall put them to good use and hope for that Level 0 artefact to make it all come true (if not, I'll use a runestone, which would be so fitting for Bluef). Thanks for the idea!

Hm. I'm not going to stress about the sliver idea too much, personally, as I am definitely getting the arties. But for everyone wanting an RP 'out' for how it happens, that's the best concept I can come up with.

I'd love to see it fleshed out more - such as a place for such slivers, maybe a giant stone somewhere. Having to go and get one to start using multiclass - needing to 'grow' it (like a living stone of sorts) using credits but with some sort of IC interaction rather than an artefact upgrade command... etc. Add 'glowing' for those with 5+ classes that get the extra level.

Tael · September 2015

Trevize said:

Overall, after reading over the posts and considering it, I'm VERY pleased with how Multiclass was handled.

IC justification for me is easy - I've always seen classes for adventurers as as esoteric magicky thing anyways. Hence learning/changing/etc. Getting the artie for it makes it even easier - using the shard/chip/stone to 'store' and 'retrieve' a lifetime of knowledge in your skills seems very viable.

My suggestion, @Tecton or whoever, would be to make it so as soon as anyone gets level 80 (or uses bound credits to buy another slot) - give them a 'sliver' of the lorewarden that acts like a level 0 artie - that they can then upgrade. Makes IC justification super simple.

Hell, I'd be happy if Certimene just "handed" you a sliver of the Lorewarden or something - if it was just an edit to the message when you go gain a class that made it mention handing you an item that didn't actually represent anything new going into your inventory. Just any kind of canonical IC thing, no matter how minor.

If it were going to be very slightly less minor, have Candlemas (the last Lorewarden, who holds the Staff of the Lorewardens that is theoretically the key to their power, so that makes a lot of sense) bestow said sliver. Like before you can multiclass, you go to Candlemas, he sees that you've transed your first class, and rewards you for your knowledge or whatever with a little level 0 version of the artefact (so you don't buy the artefacts in Delos, you get a level 0 one from Candlemas and just upgrade them).

That could make whole 5-class bonus thing a little more transparent too - it could be tied into the item (maybe something like "glowing", so you would have a "glowing sliver of the lorewarden" or a "glowing stone of the lorewarden" if you have 5 classes) so it's not quite as invisible.

Ruth · September 2015

Sooo. I said I wanted to multiclass into different classes when it came out. I chose none of what I wanted and found a new love.

Krypton · September 2015

Sarathai said:

Would really appreciate a "reset" of the no-brainer lesson packages to go with this, if that's at all possible. As mentioned further up-thread, some of us have already likely used them on other things than class skills.

From the Achaea website:

This is the best deal for new players. You get 6x more lessons this way than you would with credits! May only be bought twice for a character.

Is this new?? I thought it could only be purchased once!

Tecton · September 2015

Krypton said:

Sarathai said:

Would really appreciate a "reset" of the no-brainer lesson packages to go with this, if that's at all possible. As mentioned further up-thread, some of us have already likely used them on other things than class skills.
From the Achaea website:
This is the best deal for new players. You get 6x more lessons this way than you would with credits! May only be bought twice for a character.
Is this new?? I thought it could only be purchased once!

Two times for the lessons, once for the credits.

Krypton · September 2015

Take my $20. TAKE IT.

Tael · September 2015

I took too long to edit that, but:

Maybe you go to Candlemas and greet him and if you're tritrans and you're level 80/have bought your first slot, he says something like: "You wish to follow in the footsteps of the Lorewardens? It has been so long, but I see that already you guard much knowledge. Just as my order was created to safeguard our knowledge against the Chaos Wars, I would create a new order, new Lorewardens, to take up this mantle in light of the Worldreaver and whatever other threats may lie ahead. The other Aldar once thought you unworthy of our task, but even the learned can be proven wrong in time...When my order still toiled, we used special stones to store our knowledge, to hold all our memories and make room for more. As a library holds books, so does a lorewarden's stone hold skills, memories, knowledge. Few stones remain in my possession, and a single stone would likely overwhelm a mortal, but a mere splinter would be enough to store all that fills a mortal head and more. This sliver of one of the last stones of the lorewardens. I am entrusting it to you. You must carry on our project."

Then you can go ask Certimene to gain your new class (and you never have to do this again).

Maybe make the message for CLASS SWITCH reference the stone too.

That could make whole 5-class bonus thing a little more transparent too - it could be tied into the item (maybe make a "greater" thing, so you would have a "sliver of the greater lorewarden" or a "stone of the greater lorewarden" if you have 5 classes) so it's not quite as invisible. Candlemas could even mention that the stone might blossom when you reach a certain degree of knowledge stored in it or something ("I suspect that only a lorewarden of old, only an Aldar could unlock its full potential, but, all the same, as your knowledge blossoms, so too might the stone's power. As it grows, you may one day find it easier to store knowledge and to retrieve the knowledge within.").

I realise that a lot of this probably seems really inconsequential, but I really think it would help a lot. Multiclass in Aetolia was one of the consistently problematic things for breaking immersion when I played (despite players otherwise going further out of their way to avoid breaking it most of the time) since it had no real IC explanation or counterpart to the OOC mechanics, and I think even a threadbare IC excuse would be a real boon to this system.

Tesha · September 2015

I might be alone here but I don't see why we need new lore to explain multiclass, especially some epic lore. We've always been able to change class. The only thing that changed is now we can just do so more frequently and at a steep initial price rather than a continual price of 450cr. Creating an order of Lorewardens sounds like it should be a faction, not something widely available to everybody who gets level 80 or whatever the requirement is. Cheapening something so awesome with multiclass that everyone has access to seems like a bad idea to me.

Tael · September 2015

Tesha said:

I might be alone here but I don't see why we need new lore to explain multiclass, especially some epic lore. We've always been able to change class. The only thing that changed is now we can just do so more frequently and at a steep initial price rather than a continual price of 450cr. Creating an order of Lorewardens sounds like it should be a faction, not something widely available to everybody who gets level 80 or whatever the requirement is. Cheapening something so awesome with multiclass that everyone has access to seems like a bad idea to me.

To be clear, I really don't care what the IC explanation is - the artefacts already suggest Lorewardens, but if this is thought to cheapen the Lorewardens (I'm not sure I think they're particularly epic right now...), then ignore that.

Just have something, even if it's just a god popping in and cheesily saying "I'm unlocking all of your potential!" or "It turns out some of that demigod stuff rubbed off, I'm going to teach all you mortals how to harness it a little bit."

I really don't think it's the same as just changing class. For one, people already complain about how people changing class can break immersion since it's so odd for someone to be an occultist one day, and then not remember how to do any of that the next. It's just not such a huge deal because even frequent class-changers don't do it that often and often the interim is, technically, something like a month or whatever. So even if it does break immersion, it isn't that big a deal because it doesn't happen too often - it's easy to put up with the occasional break to immersion.

That's totally different from someone who can instantly, at will, whenever they want, be either a serpent or a paladin, but never have the skills of both at the same time for some totally inexplicable reason. And it's going to come up a lot more often than it did when people just changed class. I could put up with "It's going to be a bit. I'm changing to paladin and I'm going to have to relearn all my skills" every once in a while even if it did break immersion, but that's not the same thing as seeing "We're raiding? Hold on, I have to wait five minutes to swap to paladin." with a lot more frequency and regularity.

I just can't see any possible reason why not to give this some perfunctory IC explanation. At best, it helps mitigate the damage to immersion for the people who do feel it, and at worst it doesn't really have any effect at all on anything you're going to be doing.

Cynlael · September 2015

Why does there need to be an RP reason for being able to multiclass exactly? If something as simple as that breaks your immersion, then that's really your own problem I think.

Eld · September 2015

Antonius said:

How many credits to get unrestricted class switching?

7225, if I've got the math right, assuming starting level between 100 and 110. 7500, 10050, and 15000 lessons to tritrans your 2nd, 3rd, and 4th classes is 32550 lessons, or 5425, then 200 credits for two extra class slots, and 1600 for the level 3 artefact. That's assuming that the bonus only requires that you have the 5th class, not that you have any lessons in it.

Linton · September 2015

Cynlael said:

Why does there need to be an RP reason for being able to multiclass exactly? If something as simple as that breaks your immersion, then that's really your own problem I think.

For people who cares about it, Trevize + Tael's idea are simple to implement being mostly text. For those who do not care, it's just one more short paragraph of text to ignore, skim over. Also now when explaining logosian's benefits to new players, we can fall back on the lore instead of saying 'You get to multiclass at level 80' where 'multiclass' seem to be a gamey and modern term in an adnd rulebook or something? At least to me.

Tael · September 2015

Cynlael said:

Why does there need to be an RP reason for being able to multiclass exactly? If something as simple as that breaks your immersion, then that's really your own problem I think.

I'm starting to feel like an insane person.

Am I insane? Is it really so bewildering and so unreasonable that someone would find a fictional character suddenly swapping in and out entire professions like they're floppy disks, acting like whole skillsets (in the IC sense, not the mechanical OOC sense) are somehow hot-swappable, in a way that they never were before, without any in-fiction justification, should break someone's sense of immersion?

If you were reading a fantasy novel and a character were a wizard, and then five minutes later they were inexplicably a thief with no magical powers, and then five minutes later they were a wizard again with none of the abilities they displayed as a thief, you wouldn't expect some sort of justification? And if there weren't any justification and someone called that a hole in the narrative and said it hurt their immersion in the book, you would tell them that it was silly that something so "simple" could break that immersion and that it seems like it's "their own problem"?

I feel weird even writing this out. But oh well, I guess the horse is sufficiently dead and beaten.

Tecton · September 2015

Tael said:

I took too long to edit that, but:

Maybe you go to Candlemas and greet him and if you're tritrans and you're level 80/have bought your first slot, he says something like: "You wish to follow in the footsteps of the Lorewardens? It has been so long, but I see that already you guard much knowledge. Just as my order was created to safeguard our knowledge against the Chaos Wars, I would create a new order, new Lorewardens, to take up this mantle in light of the Worldreaver and whatever other threats may lie ahead. The other Aldar once thought you unworthy of our task, but even the learned can be proven wrong in time...When my order still toiled, we used special stones to store our knowledge, to hold all our memories and make room for more. As a library holds books, so does a lorewarden's stone hold skills, memories, knowledge. Few stones remain in my possession, and a single stone would likely overwhelm a mortal, but a mere splinter would be enough to store all that fills a mortal head and more. This sliver of one of the last stones of the lorewardens. I am entrusting it to you. You must carry on our project."

Then you can go ask Certimene to gain your new class (and you never have to do this again).

Maybe make the message for CLASS SWITCH reference the stone too.

That could make whole 5-class bonus thing a little more transparent too - it could be tied into the item (maybe make a "greater" thing, so you would have a "sliver of the greater lorewarden" or a "stone of the greater lorewarden" if you have 5 classes) so it's not quite as invisible. Candlemas could even mention that the stone might blossom when you reach a certain degree of knowledge stored in it or something ("I suspect that only a lorewarden of old, only an Aldar could unlock its full potential, but, all the same, as your knowledge blossoms, so too might the stone's power. As it grows, you may one day find it easier to store knowledge and to retrieve the knowledge within.").

I realise that a lot of this probably seems really inconsequential, but I really think it would help a lot. Multiclass in Aetolia was one of the consistently problematic things for breaking immersion when I played (despite players otherwise going further out of their way to avoid breaking it most of the time) since it had no real IC explanation or counterpart to the OOC mechanics, and I think even a threadbare IC excuse would be a real boon to this system.

We'll see how things go in the future, definitely not adverse to adding some more RP depth to it, but won't be for a bit!

Krypton · September 2015

When Druids/Sylvans switch class, their Grove golem and hive are dismissed.

Golem I get, so we can't order it to kill enemies when we are a different class. But please, please, please can hive stay? It's not a loyal. If you just dismiss any summoned bees, there's nothing we can use the hive for when we are in our secondary class.

Antonius · September 2015

Eld said:

Antonius said:

How many credits to get unrestricted class switching?

7225, if I've got the math right, assuming starting level between 100 and 110. 7500, 10050, and 15000 lessons to tritrans your 2nd, 3rd, and 4th classes is 32550 lessons, or 5425, then 200 credits for two extra class slots, and 1600 for the level 3 artefact. That's assuming that the bonus only requires that you have the 5th class, not that you have any lessons in it.

Not really worth it just to shave 5 minutes off of the cooldown. Maybe at some point I'll get to that many classes, but not going to go out and buy enough credits to do it straight away, especially when I'd need to buy artefact weapons for at least some of them.

@Tael I think the difference between Achaea and a book is that there's a long history of Achaea's mechanics changing without any real explanation; adventurers are surely just accustomed to that being the case by now.

Jonathin · September 2015

Image: https://d.gr-assets.com/hostedimages/1380222758ra/501810.gif

wooooooooo

Seftin · September 2015

Tael said:

I really like the mechanics of this. It's a nice way of handling several of the problems.

But please, please could we get even a half-assed IC explanation for how this works? Talismans or spirits or even just a little IC event or note that justifies adventurers somehow "splintering" their minds or some residual thing from all the demigod event stuff?

Any explanation at all for why someone can know how to be a Paladin and a Serpent, but can mysteriously only know how to do those things one at a time, even though they can swap their skills like a floppy disk potentially every five minutes? It's always been a little bit weird how that happens when people change classes, but it's going to be coming up a lot more now. Anything that can give us an IC justification for this sudden new ability, so when someone says "One second, let me change to Shaman.", it's not an entirely OOC thing with no IC interpretation? @Tecton? @Sarapis?

Please can this item be called the Talisman of Seftin?

Tahquil · September 2015

I think they fact that before you could only hold one class at a time is more immersion breaking than being able to switch between.

I mean, you've spent 80 years as a runewarden then one day you woke up and can't do any tiny bit of what you once were because you decided crystal spinning would be nice to try. At least now you may not mechanically be able to give runes today, but give me a month to prepare and I'll do it then if you like.

The filler for these 'immersion breaks' is pretty much the same recipe you use for the same breaks in immersion as autoclass. During your rp/personality, just give subtle nods to your (former|multi) classes and you shouldn't really have a problem.

Sobriquet · September 2015

If I go Occie I assume I have to trans Tarot again?

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