Dual Blunt Discussion

Yurdan · February 2015

@Wessux Expend legs is four momentum and that's level 3 morningstars, which I don't think pulp's viability should be based around.

@Kellonius @Aedin Seems like with the use of expend right(?) arm you could stop them from shielding on single breaks which would lead to a clean pulp. Even with rebounding coming up you could mostly likely still snag a pulp, tumbling into/away from room hinder is pretty much a full neuter though. You also have the option of mangle locks on people who you know have damagedhead high on their priorities which I'd imagine very few can tank -- tumble into/out of hinder really hurts that too however.

In my opinion getting to the actual kill sequence is more of an issue than executing it though. Still a very unexplored specialization.

Kellonius · February 2015

Yurdan said:

@Wessux Expend legs is four momentum and that's level 3 morningstars, which I don't think pulp's viability should be based around.

@Kellonius @Aedin Seems like with the use of expend right(?) arm you could stop them from shielding on single breaks which would lead to a clean pulp. Even with rebounding coming up you could mostly likely still snag a pulp, tumbling into/away from room hinder is pretty much a full neuter though. You also have the option of mangle locks on people who you know have damagedhead high on their priorities which I'd imagine very few can tank -- tumble into/out of hinder really hurts that too however.

In my opinion getting to the actual kill sequence is more of an issue than executing it though. Still a very unexplored specialization.

Its expend right leg. It doesn't matter if you do left or right first, so long as you expend on the legs. Secondly, if rebounding comes up, it lowers the chances of you pulling off a pulp significantly, and here's why: Even at full momentum, a fracture is enough time for momentum to decay naturally. Considering the high requirement on assault, this could potentially be a deal breaker. It also becomes a race to the finish with your opponent, regardless of what they're prioritizing due to the requirements of assault.

Yurdan · February 2015

I'm talking about expend right arm, stopping tattoos.

Aedin · February 2015

Yurdan said:

I'm talking about expend right arm, stopping tattoos.

If memory recalls it only stopped tattoos for either 5-7s while left arm stopped prone for a full 15s

Kellonius · February 2015

Yurdan said:

I'm talking about expend right arm, stopping tattoos.

Oh. I read what you said wrong. I thought you were thinking we were expending on arms. My mistake.

Mizik · February 2015

Expend in your face

Wessux · February 2015

Can you expend after the first hit of the DW or does it have to be after the second one? If you can do it after the first then what I posted would still work. And a quick test with basic morningstar showed a speed of 2.6 (with smash not DW since I'm dual cutting) so that would also pan out. Really it seems to come down to when you can expend, and then if you can only expend after the second hit legs should probably be dropped to 3 instead of 4.

Kellonius · February 2015

@wessux You can expend on either limb, but thats beside the point. You don't gain momentum on doublewhirls that use expend. The entire combo. So you get 0 instead of 2, but it really makes more sense to still give 1. So you still need an extra doublewhirl in the sequence to gain enough momentum to assault.

Wessux · February 2015

Ah, didn't know you didn't get momentum on expend hits. That's rough, I'll see what else I can think of then

Kellonius · February 2015

Wessux said:

Ah, didn't know you didn't get momentum on expend hits. That's rough, I'll see what else I can think of then

Welcome to my life.

Leviticus · February 2015

DB is crap and it is all based around buying artie morningstars. I applaud Kellonius for sticking with it (probably cuz he has 3200 worth of credits invested into it)

Kellonius · February 2015

Leviticus said:

DB is crap and it is all based around buying artie morningstars. I applaud Kellonius for sticking with it (probably cuz he has 3200 worth of credits invested into it)

Its not just because of the credit investment. Those were just built up from membership + trade in anyway. I just want to see it as a viable balanced class to use. Its style is cool as hell and could be something great. Its just that right now it needs work. And really, someone has to stick it out and suck ass for a while in order changes to be made. I'll fall on that grenade, I guess.

Kellonius · February 2015

Newest announce:

* EXPEND (Dual Blunt Weaponmastery) momentum cost has been reduced for attacks against the legs.

THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING

Aedin · February 2015

Yep should make everything easier for y'all to achieve pulp.

Amranu · February 2015

idea
idea
idea
ninja buff
idea

move along, nothing to see here folks

Wessux · February 2015

Well at least now the setups I posted work!!

Kellonius · February 2015

Ok! New problem. The afflictions with expend are nice, but I'm not sure they are enough to hinder an opponent. It helps, but its not the answer, considering it takes at least 2 momentum per affliction. Considering most classes can give two afflictions in two seconds, and it takes a dual blunter with level 3 morningstars to reach that speed, the affliction classes will always have the edge. Due to the natural decay of momentum, a smart afflicter could really keep a dwb knight with minimal momentum so they cant use expend to attempt to slow down the afflictor. You know, with those afflictions that are basically only going to hinder for 1 second.

Kuy · February 2015

I'm sorry, but not a problem IMO. If dwb wants afflictions, they need to lose their incredible prep speed.

Why not use said prep speed as hinder? Just prep arms and break when you need... a break.

Kellonius · February 2015

Kuy said:

I'm sorry, but not a problem IMO. If dwb wants afflictions, they need to lose their incredible prep speed.

Why not use said prep speed as hinder? Just prep arms and break when you need... a break.

I didn't capture the log, but I fought Amranu(Shaman) in a Delos Rampage yesterday. I didn't even get one limb prepped before he was able to lock me, due to his ability to keep me hindered. It takes 6 hits to prep him, 7 to break with morningstars. Six seconds to prep, 8 seconds to break, plus I need to actually have momentum to use expend.

You don't see how this is a problem? Your solution isn't a solution because we cant even manage a break.

Edit: Eh, I guess I could always use flails. I still think its a problem though, because the time it takes still pretty much evens out. Actually morningstars are probably faster since I don't have artefact flails.

Kellonius · February 2015

Did more testing and it seems I was incredibly unlucky and Amranu was incredibly lucky when we fought the other day. I'm still not sure about the expend afflictions being enough to slow down a heavy affliction opponent, especially a tankier one, though. I'll test some more and post more logs.

Aerek · February 2015

On the flipside, do you not feel that DWB's monstrously fast prep time coupled with good hindering would be a problem? DWB needs to be easily hinderable, because if it can prep limbs faster than monks (who have near-zero hindering) and has the monstrous instant kill that is Pulp, and could fight through heavy afflictions or hinder opponents just as well as DSL/S&B, what is the balance? How would classes with longer prep times expect to fight it?

Kenway · February 2015

Kellonius said:

Kuy said:

I'm sorry, but not a problem IMO. If dwb wants afflictions, they need to lose their incredible prep speed.

Why not use said prep speed as hinder? Just prep arms and break when you need... a break.

I didn't capture the log, but I fought Amranu(Shaman) in a Delos Rampage yesterday. I didn't even get one limb prepped before he was able to lock me, due to his ability to keep me hindered. It takes 6 hits to prep him, 7 to break with morningstars. Six seconds to prep, 8 seconds to break, plus I need to actually have momentum to use expend.

You don't see how this is a problem? Your solution isn't a solution because we cant even manage a break.

Edit: Eh, I guess I could always use flails. I still think its a problem though, because the time it takes still pretty much evens out. Actually morningstars are probably faster since I don't have artefact flails.

In fairness, Shaman is scary as hell right now. I -do- think it's odd though that DB doesn't have a paralysis counter like SnB and 2h. If anything, y'all need it more than SnB does.

Kellonius · February 2015

Aerek said:

On the flipside, do you not feel that DWB's monstrously fast prep time coupled with good hindering would be a problem? DWB needs to be easily hinderable, because if it can prep limbs faster than monks (who have near-zero hindering) and has the monstrous instant kill that is Pulp, and could fight through heavy afflictions or hinder opponents just as well as DSL/S&B, what is the balance? How would classes with longer prep times expect to fight it?

I do see why it could be a problem, but right now the issue is that DWB is TOO easily hindered and cant even prep against a fast affliction class. I think the term used before was "spectator sport." DWB is forced to just run and never come back, or stand there and die. You want to talk about monks? OK:

Cripple, enfeeble and telepathy just to name a few. Far superior to DWB and expend, why? Because momentum maxes at 8 and decreases every second you aren't landing hits. So if you're paralyzed, have clumsiness, stripping rebounding, you're losing momentum. Anyone doing any affliction that is worth his weight will be using all of those things. And our version of hinder uses a fourth of our momentum and only shuts down the opponent for 1 second? Might as well be worthless. So here we are.

You know what else is really good at prepping? Blademasters. Shall we break down how they are vastly superior to monks and DWB at prepping, escaping and hindering?

Jovolo · February 2015

You could give expend time based afflictions instead of the current pool of afflictions we have? Seems strange to impose mechanics inherent in DC on them

I mean things like clumsiness for 2 seconds, lowered damage (15%?) for 2 seconds, etc. I'm not sure how often you can use expend though. If it's every other attack, time-based afflictions shouldn't be too bad. Shaman peace is an anomaly that shouldn't be used as a baseline for typical hindrance, though. Not sure why they even have it anymore.

Arador · February 2015

Reducing the decay rate of momentum could go a long way without unbalancing the class. Let momentum decay at half or a third the current rate. That would make the getting hindered less of a problem. Once you see how the affliction and break potential looks, consider making small adjustments to how the afflictions work.

Yurdan · February 2015

Some dual blunt logs:
my POV - https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/4c06e3cb
Kenway's POV - https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/5695f030
-
my POV - https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/0df0a3fd
Kenway's POV - https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/10a83ba3

Carbine · February 2015

Mizik said:

Expend in your face

Your class is sketchy at best. Expending on peoples faces is OP.

Kasa · February 2015

I think what we can learn from Yurdan is that a class doesn't necessarily suck - it just wasn't popular enough to get all all the strategies revealed. Sometimes a fresh new perspective can provide genius insight, where someone who's been struggling through it since it hit the live server can become stuck in their ways.

Kenway · February 2015

Here to say, it does not suck. It is truly a struggle to overcome. There's no real way to escape, all you can do is try and hold them off. Which flavor-wise, I like and I think is appropriate. Hope that never changes.

Antonius · February 2015

Kasa said:

I think what we can learn from Yurdan is that a class doesn't necessarily suck - it just wasn't popular enough to get all all the strategies revealed. Sometimes a fresh new perspective can provide genius insight, where someone who's been struggling through it since it hit the live server can become stuck in their ways.

No offense to Yurdan, but are you joking?

Not sure what fresh new perspective we were supposed to have seen. He broke both legs then proceeded to just doublewhirl to death in that first log, against an opponent who had nothing in place to make tumbling actually effective and who didn't appear to be using rebounding at all. We already knew damaging out unartied opponents was possible.

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