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Weaponmastery Specs Discussion

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  • AddamaAddama
    Borran said:
    Anyone know which spec will be the best for hunting?  SnB is tempting because of the SoA, but is it the best choice? 
    Dual blunt is fastest, S&B arguably can tank a lot more damage though.
    ~Kresslack's obsession~
  • BorranBorran
    So hunting speed is going to be slightly slower for dual slashing and drastically slower for snb?

  • SuladanSuladan
    edited January 2015
    Originally put this in the main "Big Change - Combat" thread, but moved over as it belongs a lot more here.

    Did some testing on various Knight specialisations for bashing damage.

    The alt I used has 12 str, I was using normal forged weapons and damage is accurate as testing was on my falcon.

    Based on 7-SpeedStat/50 formula for weapon speed, results are as follows:

    Dual blunt (Doublewhirl):
    morning star76726          70 188 207 60             - 744 @ 2.86s = 260 dps
    flail156936             137 164 164 59            - 1254 @ 3.72s = 337 dps

    Two handed (Slaughter):
    bastard sword348891     197 164 131 239         - 770 @ 4.38s = 175 dps
    warhammer237876         182 151 146 239            - 788 @ 4.08s = 193 dps

    Dual cutting (Doubleslash):
    battleaxe236186         159 157 148 239            - 688 @ 4.04s = 170 dps
    scimitar277033              52 164 230 60            - 408 @ 2.4s = 170 dps

    Sword-and-Board (Combination rend smash):
    broadsword33570         151 164 155 225            - 701 @ 3.9s = 179 dps
    longsword136883         119 164 182 58            - 653 @ 3.36s = 194 dps


    - updated to include recent (last half hour) increase in two hander damage.
    The Truths hurt. Always.
  • TaelTael
    edited January 2015
    Arador said:
    Of course first prize would be flexibility to change specs instead of being lesson or credit locked into one. An artefact that allows you to change specs once a RL day given a nice 30 second balance cost so you don't use it mid combat could be a solution that meets that halfway. 
    I honestly think that's probably more conservative than necessary.

    A 30 second or 60 second or whatever balance cost alone would be plenty to prevent is from really being an issue mid-combat - if someone comes at you SnB and they run away to switch to 2h, the fight will have effectively reset, it doesn't really offer much of a tangible advantage beyond what being one or the other would already have offered and it means you don't have to balance each spec against every class and could actually encourage people to learn all of them and use them when each is more advantageous.

    And I imagine that offering that for free, as part of the class, would actually, if anything, lead to more credit sales than an artefact - if everyone could do it, I imagine you'd see a lot more people buying more artefact weapons.

    And it would add more meaning to proficiency tutors, to pick up the other weapon types.

    And it also feels like it fits the idea of a knight who is actually a "weaponmaster" better than the single-spec concept.
    My Nexus Scripts
  • RispokRispok
    Suladan said:
    Originally put this in the main "Big Change - Combat" thread, but moved over as it belongs a lot more here.

    Did some testing on various Knight specialisations for bashing damage.

    The alt I used has 12 str, I was using normal forged weapons and damage is accurate as testing was on my falcon.

    Based on 7-SpeedStat/50 formula for weapon speed, results are as follows:

    Dual blunt (Doublewhirl):
    morning star76726          70 188 207 60             - 744 @ 2.86s = 260 dps
    flail156936             137 164 164 59            - 1254 @ 3.72s = 337 dps

    Two handed (Slaughter):
    bastard sword348891     197 164 131 239         - 770 @ 4.38s = 175 dps
    warhammer237876         182 151 146 239            - 788 @ 4.08s = 193 dps

    Dual cutting (Doubleslash):
    battleaxe236186         159 157 148 239            - 688 @ 4.04s = 170 dps
    scimitar277033              52 164 230 60            - 408 @ 2.4s = 170 dps

    Sword-and-Board (Combination rend smash):
    broadsword33570         151 164 155 225            - 701 @ 3.9s = 179 dps
    longsword136883         119 164 182 58            - 653 @ 3.36s = 194 dps


    - updated to include recent (last half hour) increase in two hander damage.
    Why did you use rend smash and not slice smash?
  • SuladanSuladan
    Rispok said:
    Suladan said:
    ...
    Why did you use rend smash and not slice smash?
    Because slice smash does less damage, but for the sake of being mostly complete, it's here:
    broadsword33570         151 164 155 225            - 544 @ 3.9s = 139 dps
    longsword136883         119 164 182 58            - 489 @ 3.36s = 145 dps

    Only other issue with sword and shield is that the shield changes things. This is with a tower shield. Smaller shield do less damage, but go faster. There may be a more optimum combination for raw dps.

    The Truths hurt. Always.
  • RispokRispok
    Suladan said:
    Rispok said:
    Suladan said:
    ...
    Why did you use rend smash and not slice smash?
    Because slice smash does less damage, but for the sake of being mostly complete, it's here:
    broadsword33570         151 164 155 225            - 544 @ 3.9s = 139 dps
    longsword136883         119 164 182 58            - 489 @ 3.36s = 145 dps

    Only other issue with sword and shield is that the shield changes things. This is with a tower shield. Smaller shield do less damage, but go faster. There may be a more optimum combination for raw dps.

    I haven't bothered testing myself, but the reason I asked is because people testing with SoA suggest that slice is much much better than rend.
  • SuladanSuladan
    SoA counts as banded shield, so would be faster but slightly less damage than tower. Could be that's the optimum combination for dps. So SoA slice/smash could be better than tower rend/smash. But in that case SoA rend/smash would be better than SoA slice/smash. Don't have SoA on that alt to check.
    The Truths hurt. Always.
  • AradorArador
    edited January 2015
    I take it this is without nimble? Also, slash and crush is much much better for hunting in 2h than slaughter. I think slaughter might be more accurate so that it can be the newbie bashing attack. Speculating on that. 

    Also, 2h was increased again since then. Much higher now on both slash and slaughter. 

  • AddamaAddama
    Yeah, I just tested it, the damage on slash is now very good.

    Slaughter still sucks though.
    ~Kresslack's obsession~
  • AradorArador
    A pity actually. I love the flavour text. They should make it match slash damage at transcendent and scale it lower for newbies if need be. 

  • TreyTrey
    Ok so I don't understand something from Suladan's testing - for hunting, slice is the exact same speed as rend? That doesn't seem to make sense.

  • AntoniusAntonius
    edited January 2015
    He didn't test timings, he just plugged the weapon speed stat into the old balance recovery formula ("Based on 7-SpeedStat/50 formula for weapon speed, results are as follows:"). Also not factoring in Nimble (who doesn't have that as a Knight?) and not taking into account that sword and shield combination attacks don't seem to be using that formula, or there are additional modifiers at play.

    Basically, those sword and shield numbers are worthless.

    Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files

  • SuladanSuladan
    Antonius said:
    He didn't test timings, he just plugged the weapon speed stat into the old balance recovery formula ("Based on 7-SpeedStat/50 formula for weapon speed, results are as follows:"). Also not factoring in Nimble (who doesn't have that as a Knight?) and not taking into account that sword and shield combination attacks don't seem to be using that formula, or there are additional modifiers at play.

    Basically, those sword and shield numbers are worthless.

    Yes - as stated at the end, a lot more variables for the Sword and Shield as each shield has different balance time/damage. Might have a chunk of time tomorrow to buy all the shields and try the various combinations and stick it all in a grid - if nobody else does before then. Gave raw speed so you can do whatever you want with it.
    The Truths hurt. Always.
  • SuladanSuladan
    Actually just realized somebody else is going to have to do the sword and shield testing. I don't have trans weaponry (and not sure if that still affects speed), plus only HTML5 client - no svo for that alt so getting tenths of seconds is not too workable.

    Can definitely retest two handed damage though.
    The Truths hurt. Always.
  • KazuKazu
    I issued myself earlier to see if weaponry has an impact and here's the reply I got:

    Greetings! In regard to issue 71367, the commands specific to Weaponmastery will all only be affected by Weaponmastery (and weapon statistics, so artefacts will be better). Regular commands, such as throwing them or commands such as slash/stab/bash will be determined by Weaponry!

  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo Domingo
    A bit sad that non-trans weaponry is better than trans weaponmastery for bashing...

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • AddamaAddama
    Shirszae said:
    A bit sad that non-trans weaponry is better than trans weaponmastery for bashing...
    Just for two-hander, but I'm sure that will be rectified.
    ~Kresslack's obsession~
  • TaelTael
    edited January 2015
    Shirszae said:
    A bit sad that non-trans weaponry is better than trans weaponmastery for bashing...
    Hopefully that gets fixed. I know various admin suggested at various points leading up to the release of weaponmastery that weaponry would probably be tweaked afterward so it wouldn't be so attractive a choice (particularly in reference to classes that are awkwardly better off using things like daggers instead of things like drawslash). It sounded like this adjustment would happen after Weaponmastery went in, so that may still be coming.

    I suspect Weaponmastery will end up in line with all the other class bashing attacks and Weaponry will just get nerfed.
    My Nexus Scripts
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo Domingo
    I really hope they don't just nerf weaponry. As it is, SLAUGHTER simply does not do enough damage to justify the long balance it requires.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • SenaSena
    If the numbers Suladan gave are accurate, slaughter is still better than most other classes. Most are around 150 base DPS (trans, 12 stats, no nimble/quick-witted). It's also not much slower than apostate/mage/occultist/alchemist (all 4s base eq, 3.6s with quick-witted).
  • AntoniusAntonius
    My results look totally different to Suladan's, so I think there may still be some behind the scenes tweaks to the bashing damage of the various Knight specialisations going on. I'm not sure if it's worth finishing testing right now since it could all change again.

    At this moment in time, it looks like using a warhammer with crush is the highest DPS followed closely by using a bastard sword with slash. The actual Weaponmastery abilities aren't even close.

    Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files

  • MakariosMakarios
    Yeah, I'd not bother gathering data on bashing dps at the moment. That's constantly changing while we try to hit the nice values.
  • AntoniusAntonius
    On an unrelated note, dual cutting limb damage feels pretty good. Considering I lost 26 points of damage, number of hits is about on par with Soulpiercers, but I'm doubleslashing about 0.3 seconds faster. Nausea also feels like it should make bypassing parry less of a nuisance.

    Results of disembowel testing | Knight limb counter | GMCP AB files

  • WessuxWessux Chattanooga
    Is weaponmastery and weaponry both still counting for dual cutting speed and damage. Because I feel a little slow with 235's. I'm dsling at around 2.0 where before I was slashing at around 1.9. So I just want to double check and make sure everything is good to go. Unless you changed the formulas to slow down dsl. In which case I'll just go ahead and switch to blademaster. Lol
    Invest in a 9mm retirement plan.
  • MakariosMakarios
    Nothing's changed there, other than the formula taking weaponmastery skill into account rather than chivalry.
  • ExelethrilExelethril
    Wessux said:
    Is weaponmastery and weaponry both still counting for dual cutting speed and damage. Because I feel a little slow with 235's. I'm dsling at around 2.0 where before I was slashing at around 1.9. So I just want to double check and make sure everything is good to go. Unless you changed the formulas to slow down dsl. In which case I'll just go ahead and switch to blademaster. Lol
    Blademaster is a bit more cost effective, given the weapon tiers. Hrrrngh. I'm thinking of going serpent/bard/magi.

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  • AradorArador
    So a quad prep with dual cutting is still going to be close to a minute? 

  • AedinAedin
    Does momentum lower down the balance time?  Cause if so at max stacks with braincrushers I'm still only hitting 3 second double whirls
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