Knight in a nutshell (Warning : Spoilers)

Wessux · November 2014

Addama said:

I'm mostly worried that there's no point in testing elaborate prep and kill sequences that tomorrow or next week or next month will be completely pointless if I decide to go dual blunt (spoiler alert: I am).

I'm also hesitant to refill my venoms or buy more seeing as I won't need them in some variable amount of time.

Well dual cutting will still be a thing so testing setups isn't a bad thing to do. At the least you can teach other newbies how it works. Also venoms are always worth having. They aren't expensive enough to not have on you at all times, even if they changes happen tomorrow. But I'm willing to bet we have till the new year before changes happen.

Addama · November 2014

Wessux said:

But I'm willing to bet we have till the new year before changes happen.

I'm kind of leaning in that direction too.

Aerek · November 2014

There's been no hint of when these will come out from the Admin, every estimation you've heard is player conjecture. The base combat mechanics for the new specializations are in place, yes, but recall that there weren't any flavor or utility abilities built into the Weaponmastery skill, so there's still a lot that needs fleshing out. (Unless you think they're going to release a 1736-lesson skill with only 6 abilities in it) In addition, Knight changes are not the only thing Makarios and Tecton are working on at the present, so while I reserve the right to be shocked and impressed, I don't honestly expect any releases until March 2015, and a more conservative estimate would put it closer to summer.

I know everyone's excited for new toys, but if you're choosing not to buy fullplate, rapiers, or venoms--things that the current Knight spec needs--you're risking 5-7+ real months of misery and insolvency as a class, placing hopes on an ephemeral release date that absolutely no one can guarantee. Maybe I'm just not a gambling man, but that doesn't sound like a safe bet to me.

Fullplate will still be good armour even after its standardized, and combat experience and knowledge learned now will still be useful when the changes arrive. Don't gimp yourself for the next 6 months because you're "holding out" for Knight changes.

Amarillys · November 2014

Plus, adding on to what Aerek said, since right now how Fullplate works is you have to be the person who makes it, and you will be losing forging when you get your new knight skills, you should make you some good stuff now so you don't have to pick up forging later.

Daslin · November 2014

Honestly, there's a reason I haven't searched for Godrapiers. I'm happy with 241 rather than 245+. I'm fine with a 2s dsl, and really... It's not bad. Just forge some fullplate that's respectable. (90/90+), forge/find a pair of rapiers that are mildly okay, (231-239) and just smile as you play. Playing the whole "I'm not doing x because of y" is kinda silly, and I'm gonna plaugh when a newbie dsls you out because you couldn't attack back cause you didn't buy rapiers. Invest, take a hit when the changes come, and just say, "Oh well."

Darklyre · November 2014

Daslin said:

Honestly, there's a reason I haven't searched for Godrapiers. I'm happy with 241 rather than 245+. I'm fine with a 2s dsl, and really... It's not bad. Just forge some fullplate that's respectable. (90/90+), forge/find a pair of rapiers that are mildly okay, (231-239) and just smile as you play. Playing the whole "I'm not doing x because of y" is kinda silly, and I'm gonna plaugh when a newbie dsls you out because you couldn't attack back cause you didn't buy rapiers. Invest, take a hit when the changes come, and just say, "Oh well."

Basically, this. Yes, 223s are slow as hell, but they're just barely usable with runes. Yes, my fullplate is only 118/88 runed, but forging fullplate takes an annoying long time and costs an expensive amount of comms and goddamnit 118/88 is usable. I'm not going to worry about 0.1s of DSL time or taking 2% more damage.

Addama · November 2014

Darklyre said:

Daslin said:

Honestly, there's a reason I haven't searched for Godrapiers. I'm happy with 241 rather than 245+. I'm fine with a 2s dsl, and really... It's not bad. Just forge some fullplate that's respectable. (90/90+), forge/find a pair of rapiers that are mildly okay, (231-239) and just smile as you play. Playing the whole "I'm not doing x because of y" is kinda silly, and I'm gonna plaugh when a newbie dsls you out because you couldn't attack back cause you didn't buy rapiers. Invest, take a hit when the changes come, and just say, "Oh well."

Basically, this. Yes, 223s are slow as hell, but they're just barely usable with runes. Yes, my fullplate is only 118/88 runed, but forging fullplate takes an annoying long time and costs an expensive amount of comms and goddamnit 118/88 is usable. I'm not going to worry about 0.1s of DSL time or taking 2% more damage.

Do 223s (233s with empowerment) actually DSL at <2s? Because my 241s barely break 2s.

Achilles · November 2014

Addama said:

Darklyre said:

Daslin said:

Honestly, there's a reason I haven't searched for Godrapiers. I'm happy with 241 rather than 245+. I'm fine with a 2s dsl, and really... It's not bad. Just forge some fullplate that's respectable. (90/90+), forge/find a pair of rapiers that are mildly okay, (231-239) and just smile as you play. Playing the whole "I'm not doing x because of y" is kinda silly, and I'm gonna plaugh when a newbie dsls you out because you couldn't attack back cause you didn't buy rapiers. Invest, take a hit when the changes come, and just say, "Oh well."

Basically, this. Yes, 223s are slow as hell, but they're just barely usable with runes. Yes, my fullplate is only 118/88 runed, but forging fullplate takes an annoying long time and costs an expensive amount of comms and goddamnit 118/88 is usable. I'm not going to worry about 0.1s of DSL time or taking 2% more damage.

Do 223s (233s with empowerment) actually DSL at <2s? Because my 241s barely break 2s.

Do you have trans weaponry? My 241s usually clock in consistently at 1.8

Urban legend has weaponry increasing speed and/or damage by 10%, I can't back test this however.

Addama · November 2014

No, I'm not really anywhere close to Trans weaponry. I thought it only affected to-hit?

Aerek · November 2014

233s should technically get you to about 1.9s, but with ping factored in, you're probably looking at 2.0-2.1s, yes.

241s should be breaking 1.7 easy, if you're Trans Chivalry and Trans Weaponry. Even without Weaponry, you should be under 2 seconds, unless you're playing on satellite internet from the Australian Outback.

EDIT: Ah. Weaponry affects damage, accuracy, and speed, just like Chivalry does. Achilles' legend is true. The game takes the full effect of the higher skill, and 10% of the lower skill. Even without Weaponry, though, 241s should have you below 2 seconds unless you have some serious ping issues.

Addama · November 2014

Looking at recent logs, it ranges roughly between 1.8 and 2.1. Yeah, my ping can be problematic especially since I tend to queue actions as late as possible to minimize rebounding.

10% of Weaponry, at Trans weaponry, might translate to a 0.1 to 0.2 reduction in balance, which would bring me down to 1.6-1.7.

Daslin · November 2014

with my 241s, I dsl around 2s. I round up because really, anything faster than 2.5s is usable. Seriously, you don't need a speed crutch to win. Requires more thought, yeah, but you don't -need- 245+.

Xer · November 2014

Pft, who needs speed rapiers. Get two 212 dmg battleaxes unruned, then runeblade them with Hugalaz and just dsl!

Jules · November 2014

@Trey if it's horrible and super boring and ruins all of the nice things, which can be a danger in a game like Achaea, maybe they'll ditch it, but I really do feel like equipment stats/functionality is one of those things that can only benefit from standarization.

Kuy · November 2014

Use serverside queuing, no more ping problems.

Wessux · November 2014

Daslin said:

with my 241s, I dsl around 2s. I round up because really, anything faster than 2.5s is usable. Seriously, you don't need a speed crutch to win. Requires more thought, yeah, but you don't -need- 245+.

235 is all you need in speed. That is where you can do a two leg dsb, it's where the gecko method can be done quickly and effectively. Anything higher than that is just awesome and opens up other tactics. I've killed plenty of people with 237's when I was a runewarden.

Rom · November 2014

You want sub-2s predominately so that you can fit three DSLs (or two dsls and another action) inside a restoration apply. Most notably, breaking two legs and impaling before the first leg heals. It's not so much about "needing" it as it is trying to make knight combat actually bearable. Of course it also strengthens every DSL-related parry bypass strategy to, once again, make 1v1 bearable.

Edit: This is in reply to Daslin. A ton of people commented while I typed this~

Addama · November 2014

I'd argue that you need sub-2s DSLs to make a variety of things work. Like, Nairat stacking relies heavily on the fact that curing shiver takes two seconds, buying you two seconds to stack shriveled arms and legs. If you can't hit under two seconds, your opponent will sooner than later free up an arm and touch tree to wreck that momentum.

It also makes stacking undeaf for a Battlecry much more reliable.

Daslin · November 2014

Eh. Why go two leg only? No matter the speed, that's still a small window. I rock my 2s avg(rough avg, likely closer to 1.8-9s) just fine on arm/leg/leg with torso and get the dsb. Yeah, if I fuck up I don't get the kill, but still. I can stack sensi for nice dmg, and nairat for salve play.

Rom · November 2014

The inherent issue with breaking arm and not proning, as it is for any class, is that it gives your opponent a myriad of ways to react. If you break an arm before another limb there is nothing stopping them from flying away, walking away, or whatever (you can attack as they use balance I suppose, but that's not always applicable, especially with such a slow DSL speed). It adds a large chunk of time to your already slow prep, and gives a larger window of time for rebounding to come up as that'd take four consecutive DSLs for torso/arm/leg/leg. Breaking arm is best left as an option rather than a requirement.
Edit: Your DSL time just has to be less than 2 seconds, which yours is. You aren't gaining anything from breaking that arm in a simple setup as long as you don't lag and DSL too slow or something.

Daslin · November 2014

S'why I pop arm with epseth. Yeah, they're gonna prior leg and mending it away, but -usually-, I try catch people just after they use bal/eq to try and stave off running as best I can. I'm not downing people who want the godrapiers and such. Just mostly saying, it's not required.

Cooper · November 2014

"God" rapiers are not required, but you need 227s to dsl sub 2 seconds, which is required. Not everyone is a Runewarden with access to nairat for easy parry bypassing, either!

Caladbolg · November 2014

251 or go home.

Antonius · November 2014

227s don't give you anywhere close to a sub 2 second doubleslash. Maybe they did with old Rajamala balance, but that hasn't been part of the game for ages now. 227s are about a 2.2 second doubleslash.

@Daslin: With a 1.8 second doubleslash (roughly what you should be getting with 241s), what exactly does arm/leg/leg achieve for you? If they're prioritising mending to legs, you're going to doubleslash to break the first leg a bit before they recover salve balance from the second mending. You buy yourself an extra .2 seconds (roughly) in exchange for giving them advance warning that leg breaks are probably incoming and an opportunity to shield/fly/hinder to mess up your break chain.

Breaking the arm after they use balance/equilibrium probably works for you, but is considerably harder when your doubleslash speed is slow enough that you actually need the arm break in there to make a disembowel possible.

Aerek · November 2014

227s are right about 2.1 or 2.2, yeah, but I assume Cooper meant 227+runes, since he mentioned Runewardens in the same breath. The resulting 237s are mechanically fast enough to be successful, and usually cheap enough that mid-tier players can afford them.

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