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What Happened To You Today?

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  • MorthifMorthif
    The TDF was removed. But I don't think he's going to punish me at all now which sucks. Come at us Targ we deserve it
  • AntidasAntidas
    edited February 2016
    @Krypton as Taraus said, its got nothing to do with RP at all. You're right, from an IC standpoint, its just fine. However, from an OOC standpoint, anything that forces people to stop playing the game is a terrible idea, and thats essentially what TDFs do.

    And @Kiet yes, not everyone gets that punishment, but thats not the problem either. The problem is that -no- one should get it. Without having done something to break the rules of the game and thus are faced with a punishment from the administration, you should not ever be in a position where you feel like you just cannot play the game. Ever. Doesn't matter if its 1 person or 5, for 1 day or 10 days or 15 days in @Morthif's case.

    Edit: @Morthif lose your damn veil and I'll come play.


    I also feel like noting, @Deucalion, my rant and arguments here are in no way directed at you specifically. You just happen to have been the one to do it most recently! Its something all gods do or have done in the past, so I hope you don't feel like we're ganging up on you or anything :)

  • MorthifMorthif
    Yeah, please don't think I'm in anyway saying @Deucalion shouldn't shit all over Morthif. Being a loyal Caefir for so long and to just walk away without a word is shitty of me. But a TDF makes it so I can't fight at all. I'd rather have some nasty curse put on me after the 10 or so deaths it will take to rip the Fire from my soul while dodging roving gangs of angry Targies 
  • AustereAustere Tennessee
    Morthif said:
    The TDF was removed. But I don't think he's going to punish me at all now which sucks. Come at us Targ we deserve it
    Speak for yourself, fool. I still have 9 days, probably. I agree pissing off a divine should count for something, but they have so many tools in their arsenal for this.  Being on opposite ends of the world from Deucalion does make it hard for him to do much more than mechanically punish me.  The thought of qqing for a week is definitely real, but it's going to deprive everyone satisfaction then.  If I can come up with a way too be useful, I might go a few rounds with you guys, though.  Jadys only got a single day.  You want to talk about unloved, ha! 
  • QuisseQuisse
    Maybe He's indifferent.
  • KezKez
    It's not the disfavour's fault. There are 4 different levels and the god chose that one. If it was going to be a long-term disfavour then the one that just does -1 con would've been much more appropriate.
  • TahquilTahquil
    If people want to keep the skill lose then maybe bump that up to the top Strong Disfavour slot and slide everything down one?

    I.E
    (DIS)FAVOUR
      - Adds (or subtracts) a point of constitution.
      - Adds something to your appearance.

    STRONG(DIS)FAVOUR
      - Gives an xp bonus or takes away some xp when it ends.
      - You will no longer feel or get more hungry, or tired. If you are
        already hungry or tired, you will remain so until you do something
        to improve that. Or doubles the rate you get hungry or tired.

    HIGH(DIS)FAVOUR
      - Adds a damage reducing shield, cutting damage (of all kinds, from all sources) done to you by about 15%, or makes you take about 15% more damage. (NOT CUMULATIVE WITH ANY OTHER FAVOURS)
     - Adds (or deducts) one point to (or from) all stats.

    TRUE(DIS)FAVOUR
    - Alters your skills, with the amount in each skill dependent on the God doing the favouring or disfavouring.
  • AodfionnAodfionn Seattle, WA
    ...so, we are going to cry about maggot and toad because those make it unplayable too, right? 



    Aurora says, "Are you drunk, Aodfionn?"
  • AustereAustere Tennessee
    Aodfionn said:
    ...so, we are going to cry about maggot and toad because those make it unplayable too, right? 



    Are you telling me you have never been in a toad duel?  Super fun! Obviously you need more Pandora in your life. 
  • MorthifMorthif
    I've never been toad'd for more then a few hours but I was maggot'd by Apples for mailing him Wulfen's head. So I cancelled every warp on Mhaldor isle while they icon raided Shallam. 
  • SzanthaxSzanthax San Diego
    You guys f up my color schemes..dang it.



  • AntidasAntidas
    Aodfionn said:
    ...so, we are going to cry about maggot and toad because those make it unplayable too, right? 



    Alternatively, we can remember that people play the game for reasons other than RP, and not just reflexively accuse that group of plays of crying when I point out something that I, and many others, perceive to be a bad punishment :|

  • XinnaXinna
    Austere said:
    Aodfionn said:
    ...so, we are going to cry about maggot and toad because those make it unplayable too, right? 



    Are you telling me you have never been in a toad duel?  Super fun! Obviously you need more Pandora in your life. 
    Terra, Toad Assassin was the best. :(

    Evade OP though because fk hopping.
  • SzanthaxSzanthax San Diego
    Xinna said:
    Austere said:
    Aodfionn said:
    ...so, we are going to cry about maggot and toad because those make it unplayable too, right? 



    Are you telling me you have never been in a toad duel?  Super fun! Obviously you need more Pandora in your life. 
    Terra, Toad Assassin was the best. :(

    Evade OP though because fk hopping.
    Sartan used to tdf and toad to get me from killing shrines...



  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, Florida
    edited February 2016
    You know, I've been thinking about this situation and why it comes up and the differences and opinions, and an odd question dawned on me:

    If you believe combat should not ever be restricted (aka, some of your skills taken away), do you also believe roleplay shouldn't be restricted?

    I feel like we often punish various trespasses with the loss of roleplay opportunties, which includes being unable to speak with certain sections of the playerbase (i.e. "bad" Devotionists and enemy parties to use a more radical example), less trust in your own orgs, demotion from positions, and sometimes even outright restriction from speaking to certain individuals. These are just a few common examples, there's likely many more.

    So if these examples are acceptable - preventing fun interactions that a roleplayer would genuinely feel the loss of - why is the loss of combative abilities for a limited amount of time (often for less time than the roleplay ones would be) seen as "unacceptable" to the point you'd just qq and not play? 

    I'm not choosing a particular side at the moment, I'm mostly just musing on why we hold the view of combat above the view of roleplay. Is is just because it's a point of revenue? Or maybe there a sense of entitlement when it comes to game mechanics? Or perhaps roleplayers just learn to deal with the punishments handed down because that's what is expected?

    Or maybe, you feel they/the situation isn't the same thing at all?

    It's an interesting train of thought.
    And I love too                                                                          Be still, my indelible friend
    That love soon might end                                                         You are unbreaking
    And be known in its aching                                                      Though quaking
    Shown in this shaking                                                             Though crazy
    Lately of my wasteland, baby                                                 That's just wasteland, baby
  • AntidasAntidas
    edited February 2016
    Kiet said:
    Antidas said:
    Aodfionn said:
    ...so, we are going to cry about maggot and toad because those make it unplayable too, right? 



    Alternatively, we can remember that people play the game for reasons other than RP, and not just reflexively accuse that group of plays of crying when I point out something that I, and many others, perceive to be a bad punishment :|
    If you don't play for rp don't join an order, problem solved. If you play for rp AND other reasons, you still can rp during those 15 days.
    I enjoy combat and RP. If this game had no RP, I'd probably still play it for the pvp and the friends I have here. if the game had no PvP, I would have quit a while ago, because while I do enjoy RP, its not enough to hold my interest in the game. Its not fair to tell me, or anyone else, that they shouldn't join an order just because combat is the reason they play the game, lol.

    @Melodie I understand what you're saying but I'm having a hard time coming up with any examples of this actually happening, and I don't understand the ones you've provided haha.

  • XinnaXinna
    Melodie said:
    You know, I've been thinking about this situation and why it comes up and the differences and opinions, and an odd question dawned on me:

    If you believe combat should not ever be restricted (aka, some of your skills taken away), do you also believe roleplay shouldn't be restricted?

    I feel like we often punish various trespasses with the loss of roleplay opportunties, which includes being unable to speak with certain sections of the playerbase (i.e. "bad" Devotionists and enemy parties to use a more radical example), less trust in your own orgs, demotion from positions, and sometimes even outright restriction from speaking to certain individuals. These are just a few common examples, there's likely many more.

    So if these examples are acceptable - preventing fun interactions that a roleplayer would genuinely feel the loss of - why is the loss of combative abilities for a limited amount of time (often for less time than the roleplay ones would be) seen as "unacceptable" to the point you'd just qq and not play? 

    I'm not choosing a particular side at the moment, I'm mostly just musing on why we hold the view of combat above the view of roleplay. Is is just because it's a point of revenue? Or maybe there a sense of entitlement when it comes to game mechanics? Or perhaps roleplayers just learn to deal with the punishments handed down because that's what is expected?

    Or maybe, you feel they/the situation isn't the same thing at all?

    It's an interesting train of thought.
    Not sure I really understand the analogy. If someone made you incapable of engaging in any roleplay for 15 days, it would be equally poorly received, I think. But there's not really an equivalent. You can roleplay anytime. The criticism of TDF is that it makes combat impossible (by, for example, removing many classes' only means of killing someone). It's not something that just changes it. It's basically "no pk for 15 days."
  • SkyeSkye The Duchess Bellatere
    edited February 2016
    Examples of this would basically be summarised as thus: punishments for fraternization or loose interactions perceived as fraternization. 

    For half an hour of roleplay, it could very well cost you several hundred credits worth of lessons if someone has a bee in their bonnet about 'fixing' you. /hyperbole


  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, Florida
    Lets use a couple more concrete examples then. Going to exempt names but use a few real situations.

    Lets say a Mariner (the Targossian/Cyrenian/Hashani/Eleusian/rogue types in this case - and in this case, we'll just call them a Cyrenian) decides to start sailing with an Ashtani pirate. Said Ashtani pirate doesn't really pirate anymore, but is certainly a known enemy for that and other reasons. Cyrenian and Ashtani sail and kill sea monsters and don't bother anyone, but once caught, Cyrenian is told not to sail with that Ashtani any longer, ever again, due to various org restrictions. This is a fairly permanent roleplay loss to a character who is more or less neutral, but is forced to go along with things anyway.

    Lets say two Mhaldorians whom aren't quite novices but also aren't "well-known" hang out a lot and are friends. This includes hunting together, and interacting consistently for decent amounts of time. Some of this time also includes being within a subdivision house for innocent reasons, say to explore one of Mhaldor's family mansions (we have a number). Older figure in leadership spots them, and speaks to the female in the situation, citing it "looks suspicious" and that they should "stick to their duties", implying indecencies. Female stands up for herself. It escalates until female is told not to leave Mhaldor for a year (note this punishment was later rescinded by another of leadership and was quite some time ago).

    When I was excommunicated, even after redemption, if I was ever seen in the company of 'enemies', I was instantly thought to be guilty and was, ultimately, never trusted again despite quite a lot of work. I've gotten TDF'd (for two days) just for a misunderstanding with Scarlatti in relation to Phaestus and not being sensitive enough to a situation.

    People get punished for roleplay all of the time, and more often than not, the punishment is the loss of roleplay opportunities, either with friends, or with sections of the playerbase we find ourselves interested in interacting with. While some measure of preventing stupidity is necessary (no banging your enemies, or cuddling them), it often overreaches, and many players just put up with it.

    Why is restricting combat worse than restricting roleplay, when the former is for far less amounts of time and not nearly as damaging in the grand scheme of things?
    And I love too                                                                          Be still, my indelible friend
    That love soon might end                                                         You are unbreaking
    And be known in its aching                                                      Though quaking
    Shown in this shaking                                                             Though crazy
    Lately of my wasteland, baby                                                 That's just wasteland, baby
  • KafzielKafziel
    edited February 2016
    It's more like if TDFs removed your ability to do custom emotes, or limited it to X amount of characters, or made it so you can only use say every 30 seconds. If someone crashes your RP party and starts killing people, that's not inhibiting your roleplay, it's just knocking if off the rails and forcing it in a certain direction. You can still RP it out, but not if you can't use emote/say/etc

    edit: @Melodie all of those examples are RP restricting RP, that's like saying losing a duel is stifling your combat because you can't kill people. That's not an administrative punishment temporarily removing your ability to perform RP at all
  • AtalkezAtalkez
    Melodie said:
    Why is restricting combat worse than restricting roleplay, when the former is for far less amounts of time and not nearly as damaging in the grand scheme of things?
    It's not necessarily about restricting combat.

    You pay real money for skills, you don't pay anything to have RP. Many people who actively fight, have spent years learning how to fight effectively. It also affects hunting, so you take a gold/xp generation hit. I get where you're coming from, but you're also downplaying how much it takes someone to fight effectively, or how much auxiliary skills being reduced can effect you, I think.




    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, Florida
    edited February 2016
    Kafziel said:
    It's more like if TDFs removed your ability to do custom emotes, or limited it to X amount of characters, or made it so you can only use say every 30 seconds. If someone crashes your RP party and starts killing people, that's not inhibiting your roleplay, it's just knocking if off the rails and forcing it in a certain direction. You can still RP it out, but not if you can't use emote/say/etc

    edit: @Melodie all of those examples are RP restricting RP, that's like saying losing a duel is stifling your combat because you can't kill people. That's not an administrative punishment temporarily removing your ability to perform RP at all
    Meant more in the general sense, though admittedly those restrictions can come from a God as much as a player, it's just not an official "mechanic" is all. And yes, that does include outright restricting you from roleplaying in certain situations, thus it's not really "forcing" it in a direction if it kills off a large enough branch. This varies and depends though, I will agree it's not always that by any means.

    Atalkez said:
    Melodie said:
    Why is restricting combat worse than restricting roleplay, when the former is for far less amounts of time and not nearly as damaging in the grand scheme of things?
    It's not necessarily about restricting combat.

    You pay real money for skills, you don't pay anything to have RP. Many people who actively fight, have spent years learning how to fight effectively. It also affects hunting, so you take a gold/xp generation hit. I get where you're coming from, but you're also downplaying how much it takes someone to fight effectively, or how much auxiliary skills being reduced can effect you, I think.
    That depends. Money can also be seen as a time investment (whether you spend time OOC at a job and spend money to buy credits or you spend time IC to make gold to buy credits), and you definitely have to have a huge time investment for any meaningful roleplay.
    And I love too                                                                          Be still, my indelible friend
    That love soon might end                                                         You are unbreaking
    And be known in its aching                                                      Though quaking
    Shown in this shaking                                                             Though crazy
    Lately of my wasteland, baby                                                 That's just wasteland, baby
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  • MorthifMorthif
    Lorielan said:
    Whilst I'm not going to get into the specifics of particular cases or weigh in on the RP vs OOC punishments, players wanting unique and special case roleplay from Gods they are leaving, betraying, and similar is a big ask and it's very much a two way street.

    It's very rare that anyone is willing to set aside hours of their volunteered time, maybe even an entire day (or three's) worth to dedicate special attention to someone who's basically giving them and their organisations the middle finger. Those that are willing require a few things to be able to do so: First of all some time has to be allowed for them to drop everything they're currently working on and get their creative instincts in gear, we don't pull new OP denizens, special curses, and crazy flavour out of mid-air on demand. Secondly it requires the players on both sides of things to actually be in role and playing out their sides of things in a way that's accessible for all so the roleplay can be further enhanced.

    For those who want special exits from their orgs (even if you're defecting, we really only want players to be happy and playing the game) there has to be some give and take. If, as a player, you aren't prepared to give any, then you're likely going to get slapped with a disfavour of some kind, some deaths if you meant anything to the God you're bailing on, and you'll get put out of the mind of the volunteer who wants to focus their arguably limited time (reasonably so) on the players and responsibilities that fall within their purview.
    This is 100% correct. I have no legit RP reason for quitting so I kept putting off working with Deuc on it. And then the timeline got changed so I sent a hurried email during the day and hoped I'd see him before the plan moved forward more. But I didn't. I left the Caefir with no explanation and no good reason so I don't really expect special attention from him for it. I was just disappointed in the boring and debilitating nature of a 15 day TDF. Raiding or working on offense stuff with Austere is how I spend 99% of my non afk time in Achaea and I spend a lot of money doing it. So taking that away for over 2 weeks seemed a little harsh.
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, Florida
    Like I said, I'm not invested in either side, just musings that made me wonder. I'm also not really talking about "general" restrictions (which is like combat having rules - of course it should have rules, and so should roleplay, to some extent); I merely mean the more extreme situations, which is what TDFs usually are as well. I would never consider lifting restrictions wholly to be a good thing, just as I wouldn't suggest lifting combat rules. They're both terrible ideas. I also don't really want to just use personal examples since this isn't really about me in the first place.

    But there are extreme situations where characters have to cut off contact for reasons not of their own making.

    Being as I'm running on empty here though, I'll give it some additional thought and see if they're worth posting tomorrow.
    And I love too                                                                          Be still, my indelible friend
    That love soon might end                                                         You are unbreaking
    And be known in its aching                                                      Though quaking
    Shown in this shaking                                                             Though crazy
    Lately of my wasteland, baby                                                 That's just wasteland, baby
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