Heartseed redux

Penwize · February 2014

That all sounds about right, so a DK/Annwyn loop would be about 30k on a 45 minute respawn, which comes to 40k/hour roughly? That's somewhat close to 50k but under it like I thought, and that's under absolutely ideal conditions. Still makes the 400k a day figure out of reach for most unartied dragons who don't want to devote all day to bashing.

Antonius · February 2014

DKs are 50, Annwyn is an hour, which drastically increases your chances of losing one of the spawns; at some point you have to make a choice about which one you take, you can't always be killing everything as it respawns, even if you weren't interrupted by people attacking you.

Shecks · February 2014

To get back on subject, the point was that it's not impossible to earn a lot of artefacts in game. A million gold per week is still 600cr a month. Not bad at all.

Antonius · February 2014

Yes, it's possible, but only for a very small percentage of the playerbase, and that doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea to start balancing combat solely for those few people plus anybody who can pay large amounts of real life money to buy artefacts. Artefacts should, of course, be factored in, but we shouldn't ever be in a position where we're saying "It works for people with these artefacts, but doesn't work for anybody without them, that seems totally fine."

Santar · February 2014

I only made 1 million gold bashing for 40 hours straight in a GH

Also, I got 2nd place in the GH, for reference.

Shecks · February 2014

Meh, I wasn't trying to start an argument. I'm a little at an advantage because being in japan, it's pretty easy to lock down annyn, sometimes 5 or 6 hours straight.

Feral · February 2014

The fact that few people have access to artifacts only makes @santar's point even more valid.

If you have a strategy that is unstoppable when you have artifacts but no big deal without them and you then balance combat around the assumption that most people will not have artifacts you create a situation where the few can destroy the many. Combat should always be first balanced on the asumption that people will fight with optimal setups. After that you can focus on making less optimal setups more viable.

Also just for the record I make around 1k gold an hour and I have a bunch of artifacts. I have no idea what the rest of you are doing wrong.

Zeon · February 2014

Feral said:

The fact that few people have access to artifacts only makes @santar's point even more valid.

If you have a strategy that is unstoppable when you have artifacts but no big deal without them and you then balance combat around the assumption that most people will not have artifacts you create a situation where the few can destroy the many. Combat should always be first balanced on the asumption that people will fight with optimal setups. After that you can focus on making less optimal setups more viable.

Also just for the record I make around 1k gold an hour and I have a bunch of artifacts. I have no idea what the rest of you are doing wrong.

This is already how things are done.

Jovolo · February 2014

A bunch of artifacts from 1k gold an hour? It would take you 2,000 hours to bash up enough gold to buy one artefact - a shield of absorption - assuming you bought only city credits at 4k per.

Hmm.

Feral · February 2014

Jovolo said:

A bunch of artifacts from 1k gold an hour? It would take you 2,000 hours to bash up enough gold to buy one artefact - a shield of absorption - assuming you bought only city credits at 4k per. Hmm.

I think you missed the tone. I am saying I earn 1k an hour and I already have a bunch of artifacts. I.E. I fail. I fail even more by having to explain.

Feral · February 2014

Zeon said:

This is already how things are done.

I hoped that was (still) the case but it seemed like multiple people were arguing against it in this thread. I guess I do not know people well enough yet to have filters for who I can safely ignore when reading.

Zeon · February 2014

Pretty much all of the forums. In regards to who you can safely ignore.

The majority of posts I've seen recently are vast generalizations of combat mechanics made by people who don't fully understand them.

Jacen · February 2014

Feral said:

Zeon said:

This is already how things are done.

I hoped that was (still) the case but it seemed like multiple people were arguing against it in this thread. I guess I do not know people well enough yet to have filters for who I can safely ignore when reading.

The opposing view is that if you solely balanced classes around their fully optimized setups, you would essentially have one or two or three people in every class that has any chance whatsoever to kill someone else. For example, if you linearly balanced a monk's Axekick around Nemutaur's or Kross's or Jarrel's (Jarrel is the only person I remember doing an axk combo for 100% of someone's health), then anyone else would have little hope of taking down an opponent.

Achaea already takes the significant step in combat balance of making most PvP attacks scale with the target's max health. The scale just needs to be applied to other combat aspects as well. Example: Its pretty damn tough for a quad transed monk to take down a quad transed knight. Creating this balance certainly isn't easy, and its an ongoing effort to achieve.

There needs to be a balance struck between making artied combat the pinnacle of Achaean achievement (artefacts need to be effective enough that they're desirable, and worth dropping RL money on) and the tri/quad transed level of combat (Don't want to scare away prospective buyers that just need more time to get invested into the game)

That's part of the beauty of the complexity of Achaean combat: Combat can be reasonably balanced across the board as opposed to focused only on the endgame portion.

Shecks · February 2014

Some people seem to be ignorant of the fact that you can't nerf arties. We already bought them, for what they were when we paid for'em. It'd be 100% stupid as a business to pull the rug out from under all of their customers, in the interest of their non-customers.

Sena · February 2014

Artefacts have been nerfed plenty of times, even removing their primary function entirely. If it's a huge change they might offer a refund or exchange, but that's not necessary either.

Making artefacts balanced isn't just for the benefit of those without artefacts either, it improves the game as a whole (ideally).

Jacen · February 2014

Tweaks are necessary to maintain balance in a system that's constantly being updated. That extends to artefacts. One big change that comes to mind is changing SoA to not have a chance to absorb disembowel, dragon bite, pround, axk and bbt.

IRE wouldn't do something as huge as erasing veils, no. But they're also in it for the long haul, and maintaining an interesting combat system is a priority so that new players will continue to be drawn in while current players become more invested in the game.

Xith · February 2014

Eh.. You can delete them and refund them or allow temporary full trade-in for a nerf. Can't think of examples off-hand but I think they've done this. Sort of like giving all serpents a trait reset or reincarn after the dex changes (whichever they allowed, don't remember).

Shecks · February 2014

Arties are broken, that's the point of them. A full stat artie set is +3 of all stats. That will never be "balanced". You either have to overcome with tact and pure skill, or buy them yourself. That's the game.

Jacen · February 2014

Xith said:

Eh.. You can delete them and refund them or allow temporary full trade-in for a nerf. Can't think of examples off-hand but I think they've done this. Sort of like giving all serpents a trait reset or reincarn after the dex changes (whichever they allowed, don't remember).

Think they did that with that lash that delivered the pacifism affliction, maybe? Turned out to be a far better serpent bashing weapon than the artie whips or lashes. Or maybe it was just a heck of a lot cheaper

Sena · February 2014

Jacen said:

Think they did that with that lash that delivered the pacifism affliction, maybe? Turned out to be a far better serpent bashing weapon than the artie whips or lashes. Or maybe it was just a heck of a lot cheaper

The lashes didn't exist back then. The Whip of Taming had about the same stats (only slightly worse) as the level 3 lash does now, for only 400 credits, so it was changed to no longer work with garrote. A while (~8 months) later, the lashes were added as a replacement (since the normal artefact whips were terrible) at more appropriate prices.

Shecks · February 2014

The level 3 lash is only barely on par/better than cheap forged whips. The level 1 & 2 are pure crap. I just don't get where they come up with the numbers sometimes.

Caladbolg · February 2014

Xith said:

Well I'm magi now, but I didn't used to have to worry about heartseed, cause I was a jester and died to f*cking bees.

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/845fb28b

Trey · February 2014

Shecks said:

The level 3 lash is only barely on par/better than cheap forged whips. The level 1 & 2 are pure crap. I just don't get where they come up with the numbers sometimes.

You're thinking of whips, I think. Trying to crest 200 speed on a forged whip is possible, but fairly rare. The level 3 whip is insane in terms of speed.

Shecks · February 2014

I'm not confusing the two, I'm looking at the stat totals, adjusted for their input to total dps. The normal whips are far, far worse (not sure why they exist...). What they (lashes) -are- decent at is super high level bashing, thanks to critd, but even with level three, it's massively slower bashing than unartied dragon.

The real beef serpents tend to have with the whips is that recent changes removed whip stats as an input to all of the whip related abilities (namely, flay, yank). So now I have a whip that is -only- useful for bashing, but still pretty bad at that relative to other classes. Level three lash gets APCs that don't kill all the time. Super annoying.

Shecks · February 2014

Daeir said:
Serpents are for bashing people with Lupine arrows, not for dedicated hunting.

This isn't even related to the topic anymore.

Oh. And here I was thinking that anyone could buy Lupine bows.

Jacen · February 2014

Daeir said:

That is because Serpent bashing is arguably amongst the worst in the entire game in terms of raw speed, made bearable by higher-than-average tank via scales.

Serpents are for bashing people with Lupine arrows, not for dedicated hunting.

This isn't even related to the topic anymore.

How many times must @Sena disprove you before you will actually believe her?

Shecks · February 2014

Serpent is garbage at bashing, at all levels. I don't think that @Daeir realizes that for something to be "above average", there have to be a few things below it. There's always Shaman I guess. Maybe "better than Shaman" would be a better summarization.

Cooper · February 2014

Serpent is in the middle of the 'How fast classes can bash' list.

Shecks · February 2014

I've never seen any math on this, I'm going purely off of having bashed as 10+ classes. Keep in mind that artefacts have a huge impact on this, and serpent doesn't have any that help (aside from silver fangs on DKs, perhaps, and lashes, if you have a level 3, which most lowbies/midbies don't) Serpent is doomed to having nothing offensively boosted by any stats (except for... meteor arrows! ... and recently doublestab, which obviously doesn't apply to bashing).

Kuy · February 2014

Shecks said:
I've never seen any math on this, I'm going purely off of having bashed as 10+ classes. Keep in mind that artefacts have a huge impact on this, and serpent doesn't have any that help (aside from silver fangs on DKs, perhaps, and lashes, if you have a level 3, which most lowbies/midbies don't) Serpent is doomed to having nothing offensively boosted by any stats (except for... meteor arrows! ... and recently doublestab, which obviously doesn't apply to bashing).

If you haven't seen the math, you haven't looked for it.

It's easy to find thanks to @Sena.

(It's also easy to do it yourself.)

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