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Jester - Bombs

KaieKaie Member Posts: 158 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
Starting up a thread here, to discuss the use of Bombs for Jester class so we're not hijacking another thread for it.

As it currently stands there is no viable method to really stick bombs on some one's inventory since if the person is aware of what you're doing (and the third person timer message is a pretty big headsup)  they will either put the bombs in a container, drop them, or give them back to you. Dropping them is usually the last resort since they can effectively negate the bomb entirely with the other two methods.

So, far I'd like to see the first two methods removed entirely. Jester is the only class  able to time bombs and as such, i feel they should be the only one skilled enough in explosives give an activated bomb to some one and I feel that backpacks should not be able to suppress bombs. That leaves the victim with dropping bombs which is an entirely viable means to get rid of them. There's no real need for 3 ways to ditch bombs. Though, I'd love to hear from others on the topic.
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MordricSultani

Comments

  • SylvanceSylvance Member Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Yep, the idea of a pack stopping a bomb blast is indefensible thematically. I'd hope this had been implemented for reasons of balance. But can't Jesters Aeon people?
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • JonnersJonners Member Posts: 475 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I agree that putting a bomb in a pack is a stupid defense, the other two seem perfectly agreeable to me.
    ~
    You close your eyes momentarily and extend the range of your vision, seeking out the presence of Drugs. 
    Though too far away to accurately perceive details, you see that Drugs is in Mhaldor.
    Mordric
  • BlujixapugBlujixapug Member Posts: 1,833 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kaie said:
     There's no real need for 3 ways to ditch bombs.
    Bombs can chain-disable someone long enough for you to kill them twice. Of course there's a need for ways to ditch bombs.

    It's been a while since I last got griefed by a jester so I'm no longer completely familiar with which aspects of interacting with bombs require balance or are restricted by selfishness. But IIRC, each method has its own tradeoff. If you give bombs to the jester, you must first waste time on generosity, and they can give them right back. If you drop bombs, they will now affect everyone in the room (I don't remember if a timed bomb can be picked back up or not). If you put the bombs into a container, they'll affect nobody, and you don't need to drop selfishness.
    image
  • SylvanceSylvance Member Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Kaie said:
     There's no real need for 3 ways to ditch bombs.
    Bombs can chain-disable someone long enough for you to kill them twice. Of course there's a need for ways to ditch bombs.
    I'm not sure that he's arguing that there shouldn't be any way to ditch a bomb, Bluj. But you have to admit that putting it in a pack to stop it from going off is a little bit Acme.
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
  • JamethielJamethiel AdelaideMember Posts: 131 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    HELP ARTIFACTS

    Acme Bomb-Proof Pack

    Weaved of mithril, silver and gold thread, this pack contains the effects of any bombs within it. It also carries 100 items.
    AnaidianaMordricSylvanceIsaiah
  • ValynardValynard Member Posts: 11

    Timed bombs cannot be picked up, I found in a fight with Roam.

    There is only not a way to stop them if you use no prep with the bombs (i.e, you don't spend the time to set up around 30 fashions), is that really that bad?

    The concussions stunned me for almost three seconds, and the dust bombs and web bombs make it difficult to put up any defence at all... they seem to be more useful in throwing while juggled or as unexpected ganks with hangedman and bombs, or to be used with prep. Sounds more reasonable that way too...

  • SantarSantar Member Posts: 2,382 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2013
    Bombs would need a serious nerf if they were a guaranteed thing. Jester already has ways to get a guaranteed bomb or two to go off.  Bombs are already pretty game-breaking for a great deal of things. There's no need for long chains of bombs to be possible in 1v1. It'd just result in Jesters getting tons of free, no prep kills. Jesters already have plenty of tools to kill people. Jesters that are actually playing the class to its potential already uses bombs plenty effectively. If you were able to guarantee multiple bombs to be used effectively, the class would be completely imbalanced.

    Also, for reference, bombs used to be stronger and they were nerfed because it was breaking the game.

    image

    JovoloNyboeHaldon
  • BambizloBambizlo Member Posts: 74 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Not sure why this needed a new thread. Terra's idea of removing the balance cost of timers while retaining the cost on handing off a bomb along with the possible removal of putting timed bombs in a pack (the other two methods would remain untouched, of course) addresses concerns about the skill while still offering enough room for counterplay.
    Blujixapug
  • JonathinJonathin Grand Rapids, MIMember Posts: 3,323 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    p pack
    Meticulously crafted from a multitude of large, flexible dragon scales,

    I don't see why my pack shouldn't suppress a jester's bomb.

    My site will remain up, but will not be maintained. The repository will continue to have scripts added to it if I decide to play another game. Maybe I'll see you around in Starmourn!
    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

    Sylvance
  • BambizloBambizlo Member Posts: 74 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited July 2013
    For the same reason it doesn't suppress monk BBT's, serpent backstabs, etc.
    Post edited by Bambizlo on
    SylvanceJesparChord
  • DragonknightDragonknight Member Posts: 252 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Santar said:
    Bombs would need a serious nerf if they were a guaranteed thing. Jester already has ways to get a guaranteed bomb or two to go off.  Bombs are already pretty game-breaking for a great deal of things. There's no need for long chains of bombs to be possible in 1v1. It'd just result in Jesters getting tons of free, no prep kills. Jesters already have plenty of tools to kill people. Jesters that are actually playing the class to its potential already uses bombs plenty effectively. If you were able to guarantee multiple bombs to be used effectively, the class would be completely imbalanced.

    Also, for reference, bombs used to be stronger and they were nerfed because it was breaking the game.
    Oh, Manu.
  • JonathinJonathin Grand Rapids, MIMember Posts: 3,323 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Bambizlo said:
    For the same reason it doesn't suppress monk BBT's, serpent backstabs, etc.
    Invalid argument. I don't actually wear it.

    My site will remain up, but will not be maintained. The repository will continue to have scripts added to it if I decide to play another game. Maybe I'll see you around in Starmourn!
    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

  • BambizloBambizlo Member Posts: 74 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Jonathin If you're arguing realism, you shouldn't be able to wield anything in your hands if you're carrying your pack either. Just let it go.
    Sylvance
  • JonathinJonathin Grand Rapids, MIMember Posts: 3,323 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If you're arguing surrealism, then my pack should be able to stop a jester's bomb, BBT, serpent backstabs, etc.

    My site will remain up, but will not be maintained. The repository will continue to have scripts added to it if I decide to play another game. Maybe I'll see you around in Starmourn!
    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

  • JonathinJonathin Grand Rapids, MIMember Posts: 3,323 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    image

    My site will remain up, but will not be maintained. The repository will continue to have scripts added to it if I decide to play another game. Maybe I'll see you around in Starmourn!
    Tutorials and scripts  The Repository

  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    There actually is not a surefire way to stick one or two bombs on an individual, as they can always be dropped at the minimum.
    Dropped bombs have their uses, but when you need to have an effect land on a single target to pull off a combo, the only time you can stick a bomb is if the person happened to be off-balance and the timer was perfect enough to go off before they regained balance or writhed from your hangedman.

    I've seen plenty of opponents with bomb-managing reflexes that give pack or drop bombs all at once in a queue based on when they were received. I use Svo, so I don't know if it's an Omni thing, but I've seen it often enough that it's out there. This means basically the moment they're writhed, on balance, unstunned and unparalysed(?), they drop every other bomb you have on them.

    You also can not put enough bombs on someone to kill them twice. Webbing someone who is already writhing does nothing for you, concussion stuns do not stack, and bombs have a 3 second plus or minus to the timer # you attempt to set, meaning that it takes extraordinary luck to line them up in a way that a) keeps any from being dropped and b) does not waste any bombs with double-web/stun.
    I don't think any class actually spends as much gold in a fight as jesters do. Bombs average 20 gold in addition to props being 20 gold. Cards are all 20 gold. Jitb is 80 gold. Half the things we have don't reflect the price we pay to use them.

    Main point here is that reflexes can beat a lot that jesters do. 
    Mickey: Mickeys are a shining example too. Some people loop moss eating to check for mickey as often as possible without consuming actual herb balance, which mickeys do not do either. Systems can eat kelp as soon as the mickey line is caught, costing the victim 0.100 second instead of 1.6. Not the point of this topic, but they really do nothing but add nausea unless the person hasn't eaten an herb by the time they're in aeon.

    Our class can't keep up with the systems. It'd be like an affliction class being unable to keep up with the speed of everybody's curing.

    Jesters are a timing class and they can't really afford to deal with dropped bombs in a crucial combo that's likely to burn through fashions and other resources.

    tl;dr -
    In Classlead 230, I made suggestions involving a glue prop, as well as applications for smokebombs or firecrackers to aid in sticking bombs. Won't go into those here, but initially the idea was to apply glue to a bomb and then give it to someone timed, making them unable to remove it from their inventory.
    I'd revise it now to make it a condition similar to mickey. Slip glue to them silently, and the next timed bomb to arrive in their inventory is stuck to them. That way only one at a time.
    This is essentially Kaie's original post but with a visible reason for not being able to give/pack things.
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
  • SylvanceSylvance Member Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited July 2013
    Nevermind. It's Saturday.
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
    JesparSherazad
  • KaieKaie Member Posts: 158 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Okay, I'm gonna go  over the methods of ditching bombs. I don't think everyone's on the same page.

    Option 1, Put bomb in container. Putting bombs in a pack or any other container is a balance free method of completely removing bombs from the situation. You can simply spam "Put bomb in pack" when you have balance and you'll be able to lose them quickly. Alternatively, you can do "Put 50 bomb in pack" for a balance cost of around 1 second. That's a really quick balance cost for ditching 50 bombs right? It doesn't even make sense to be honest. Canvas backpack vs bomb.... backpack wins. Wtf.

    Option 2, Give bomb back to Jester. This one might just be more annoying than the first. While, it's not as comically stupid as the first it's still ridiculous. Reason being, people who reflex this basically get free stuns. So, while amusing to watch or do.. it can be devastating when it backfires on the Jester. Let's pretend that you're a Jester fighting a serpent or an apostate. You go for the o'le concussion/hangedman attack.. nope, he gave it back and you're off balance. Now, you're stunned and he's afflicting you. It basically is an attack that can be turned around by any class giving them stun capabilities if they're paying attention to the fight and not just reflexing and facerolling the keyboard.

    Option 3, Drop bomb. This one makes the most sense to me as anyone can drop things and the ground is a perfectly reasonable place to stick a bomb. It's almost unstoppable (obviously being asleep stops this) and requires no additional skills such as survival to do it. i can mangle, crush, and twist your puppet anyway with any amount of fashions I want and you'll be able to drop those bombs. It's by far the most powerful of the three methods as the other two can be stopped with mangles and webbing. Dropped bombs cannot be picked up and dropped bombs hit every unshielded person in the room. That stops the Jester from further attacking during the bombs course.

    Okay, so now that we're all on the same page. I'd like to clear up the idea that @blujixapug has of my goal. I'm not suggesting bombs should be guaranteed at all. I'm against that as can be seen by me posting against Xith's original sticky bomb idea.

     My suggestion is simply that we can remove the other two methods of getting rid of bombs since we don't need them any more. As far as beefing bombs up goes, my only suggestions would be to remove the 3rd party timer message so that people aren't automatically tipped off to what's going to happen next and spam "drop bomb" in anticipation.
  • KaieKaie Member Posts: 158 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited July 2013
    I'd suggest smart bombs. Why not be able to upgrade your bombs at transcendent and make rockets that shoot off and target a person in range. Then scrap suicide mice all together. No limit should be imposed on how many rockets like they did with suicide mice. It wasn't a good idea since it takes more than 2 to have a party.

    Syntax could be "light rocket for <target>" then, have it go on it's merry way in a colourful stream of fire and sparks until it finds it's victim. Then, it should hit the target with which ever bomb-type I made it to be (Dust/web/concussion) and from there it hits just like any ordinary bomb with one important exception. It only affects the target and not the entire room.

    Now, to make this more on par with Achaean reality we'll need to apply a nerf to it. So, we'll give each rocket a delay.. like meteor arrows. So, I light rocket.. few seconds later.. you hear hear it above you.. then, a few seconds later it's on you and indoors/shield protects you. lol
    Jonners
  • KatzchenKatzchen MhaldorMember Posts: 2,000 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kaie said:
    I'd suggest smart bombs. Why not be able to upgrade your bombs at transcendent and make rockets that shoot off and target a person in range. Then scrap suicide mice all together. No limit should be imposed on how many rockets like they did with suicide mice. It wasn't a good idea since it takes more than 2 to have a party.

    Syntax could be "light rocket for <target>" then, have it go on it's merry way in a colourful stream of fire and sparks until it finds it's victim. Then, it should hit the target with which ever bomb-type I made it to be (Dust/web/concussion) and from there it hits just like any ordinary bomb with one important exception. It only affects the target and not the entire room.

    Now, to make this more on par with Achaean reality we'll need to apply a nerf to it. So, we'll give each rocket a delay.. like meteor arrows. So, I light rocket.. few seconds later.. you hear hear it above you.. then, a few seconds later it's on you and indoors/shield protects you. lol
    So... you want to make bombs into a duplicate star tarot? Why?


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  • SylvanceSylvance Member Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    @Katzchen - read the last word of his post?
    Tvistor: If that was a troll, it was masterful.
    I take my hat off to you.
    Jonners
  • KaieKaie Member Posts: 158 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    lol, I wasn't being serious with this. I'm pretty damn sure no one would do that, especially since they just made suicide public with a whopping 2 mice per person limit. It's pretty powerful. So, when ever Mhaldor raids.. I can stop you guys for 4 seconds. It's more than enough time for Mephaos to start rage shouting.
    KyrraSylvance
  • MakoMako Member Posts: 150 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    lucky to even have suicide mice mate, i dident
  • KaieKaie Member Posts: 158 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited July 2013
    @mako, you're not missing much.
    BambizloTerraMakoSantarXith
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