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Limb Damage - Solved

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  • KogKog Member Posts: 376 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,850 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    You aren't allowed to illusion "ooc" things like that. It has been this way for more than a decade, possibly two decades.

    There has been a couple of times where an admin said it was allowed but each time it was corrected later. Some of the biggest illusion discussions have been around being allowed to illusion the asterisks in the old paralysis message, the diagnose message, and starburst/you have been slain messages. Oh, and party/group/army chat, that was a big one when auto-targeting was starting to become widespread.


    If someone tries it, someone will issue and they will say you can't illusion that.


  • SobriquetSobriquet Member Posts: 2,879 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Two prominent fighters still use the "You have slain <target>" line to reset people's trackers/ systems and have done for ages, with zero repercussions.


    (Party): Mezghar says, "Stop."
  • ErylEryl Member Posts: 363 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    I can maybe think of one person who might still try it sometimes. The others do something different: they illusion THEMSELVES dying (often two-line with a LoS attack before it).

  • ShecksShecks Member Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited May 5

    Illusion was added to the game specifically to fool client-side automation, and that's exactly what we're doing. Also, dealing limb damage is not OOC.

    Again though, it's all moot because Illusions absolutely should not ever work for this because illusion of 1st person actions are 100% illusion proof with 30 seconds of additional setup.

    Your posturing about an illusion of a combat line ruining your immersion is really also arguing that the line shouldn't exist at all, and the same logic that you're using to say an illusion of the line isn't legal would make it logical to say that you using triggers to collect the data and use it in combat automatically should be illegal too, as both give your character OOC information.


    Like what even is your rationale here? Every line with a number in it is OOC? Like you'd issue someone for an illusion of "You bleed 600 health."?

    Illusion of prompt is illegal and illusion of actual OOC stuff like config and credit commands etc are illegal. "Your IC mind senses that your IC attack did IC damage to IC opponent." is not OOC.

  • SaonjiSaonji Member Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited May 5

    That... Isn't illusions original purposes. They were made to facilitate RP (and have in fact existed since before people really scripted), and did so just fine until people realised you could also use them to mess with people's scripts.

    Also nobody said anything about it ruining their immersion, idk where you got that from. You're really reaching with some of these arguments.

    eta: And stop making me agree with Cooper.

    Aiwendil
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,850 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    You lost credibility here when you compared using triggers to using ooc illusions and then you argued that point, not what was said. You stating something as a fact does not make it true.


    The admin have repeatedly ruled that way in issues. I don't really care whether you say that information is ooc or ic, I told you that the admin disallow them and why they choose to do so.


    Try talking about what's being discussed instead of what you imagine is being talked about.


  • ShecksShecks Member Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    k dude

  • ShecksShecks Member Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    Snicker. You lost credibility when you argued with yourself just because you don't like me


  • AdrikAdrik Member Posts: 773 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    oh wow. my old character's in a quote. Yikes.


    Anyways, this was a change made for ease of access so you don't have to spend 30 hours working on code so you're at the point you can get trounced and spend another 10 hours finetuning that code so that you can do actual 1v1 pvp.


    If the only reason your illusion 'works' is because people didn't spend excessive amounts of time to fool-proof their system.


    You have a problem.

  • ShecksShecks Member Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited May 5

    Illusions have always been used to trick curing/tracking systems. This is specifically why they were built into serpent kit, and why they can be used off-balanced after doublestab. Is your theory that we got off-balance illusions so that members of the serpent class can RP after every doublestab?

    Your arguments are silly and reek of laziness. You're arguing that automation / client-side trackers are OK but illusions to fool those trackers are not, it's a bit ridiculous - not just logically but because the game designers have repeatedly said as much. This argument has been made 1000 times throughout the history of the game and has been lost every time.

    If you don't like playing against illusions, then don't use client-side systems, buy the artefact specifically designed to help you ignore most of them, set up anti-illusion, or just stick to fighting midbies who don't use illusions.

    You got serverside curing which eliminated 95% of the usefulness of combat illusions and an artefact that cancels out 66% of whatever is left. Stop complaining.

    The argument about spending excessive amount of time doing anti-illusion is also of course absurd, as it assumes literally every single person writes their own limb tracking system, which we all know is not true (several updated systems have already been shared within days). I've also explained exactly how to block this, and it takes about 30 seconds to do. You can copy someone else's system or you can take the 30 seconds to do it yourself. Or you can do nothing and cry on forums that people are sending you text during combat in a text-based combat game.

  • ArgwinArgwin Member Posts: 178 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished

    Alternate solution, make illusions purely rp related and disallow illusions of any combat abilities.

    AiwendilShirszae
  • CaelanCaelan Member Posts: 2,842 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Mask of Lifevision... the one to make it less effective/Obfuscation... staff of illusions... lightspire.


    They would have to refund a LOT of credits or risk pissing a lot of people off.


  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,850 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    My bad on bringing up the party calls - I definitely forgot that Nicola made a forums post about it 5 years ago. That was an afterthought and not really relevant to the main point though, I'm sorry you spent time digging through years of posts to find that. Party calls are not equal to a game message you receive after an attack.


    Illusions have always been used to trick curing/tracking systems. This is specifically why they were built into serpent kit, and why they can be used off-balanced after doublestab.


    Are you sure you want to make this claim? Serpents had illusions before tracking, auto curing, or any sort of "system" was a thing. They were not implemented to trick curing/tracking systems as those systems did not exist. They were also not implemented to fool client side automation, because no one had client side automation back then. Illusions were implemented to fool players (not systems) into thinking a fake attack was real so they would cure the wrong affliction.


  • CaelanCaelan Member Posts: 2,842 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 5

    Coop, technically you proved his point.


    Systems were not a "thing" (despite them being a thing since I have played. Not widespread but traded), so illusions pre-dating that shows for the entire existence of any curing systems, illusions have sought to trick them.


    Also, prior to them being widespread, illusions were meant to trick the curer (aka curing system) intk thinking they had affs they didnt, or had cured something they hadnt.


    In this point, I feel like Shecks is right. I won't touch on the RP-ness of illusioning messages like that though, except to say they have been used by many parties.


  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,850 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Sure, if you consider a player that is manually curing afflictions to be an automated curing & tracking system you might also think that Shecks is correct. I can see how that thought process would work.


  • TeshaTesha Member Posts: 3,006 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    damn, lol

     i'm a rebel

    Embrelle
  • CaelanCaelan Member Posts: 2,842 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    no lie.. good burn.


  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,850 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Can HELP ILLUSIONS be updated to reflect the forum posts that conflict with issue history and previous rule clarifications?


  • CaelanCaelan Member Posts: 2,842 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    "No" - Deletus, throwback.


  • LyrinLyrin Member Posts: 247 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited May 7

    I swear i saw

    ** ILLUSION **

    on my screen after Ictinus' post.


    What does this mean???

    EmbrelleRomaen
  • ShecksShecks Member Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited May 14


    Well, this changes things a bit (and by a bit I mean massively)! Thanks for hearing us @Makarios and team!!


    ArgwinArcturusRomaen
  • ShecksShecks Member Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited October 21

    Here's what I have for 2H Hew/Pulverize. It's not perfect, but the output is exactly right maybe 95% of the time (for around 100 2-4hp IG test data points), and +/-1 hitpoint around 5% of the time, and should be exactly right within most "normal" HP ranges (5k-9k). Determining the true formula (this isn't it) is proving to be not worth the extra time it takes to work it out.

    d is damage stat on weapon,

    z is simply 1 for cutting (bastard), 2 for blunt (warhammer). Battlefury Precision will also halve your limb damage on either weapon.

    x is max HP

    I have not accounted for Weaponmastery skill, nor have I verified that it's a factor at all (you need an alt or a Disfavor to do this). Class skill is a factor is on almost every other limb damage skill so it probably is but if you're reading this you're Trans, so that's purely academic. I am (for now) assuming the formula actually uses weapon damage stat for artefact weapons. For all we know it may simply be a hard-coded multiplier or just a hard-coded hidden limb damage stat on each artefact level, but I don't think it is so far. The above works with extreme accuracy, so I'm happy to leave it there. I did not test on L1 or L2 this time, however it should work just fine.


    As a recap of why this matters post-limb damage echo change:

    1) you can predict how much damage each of your weapons will do with each attack / weapon / stance to decide which to use

    2) it is far better to track actual opponent limb HP damage instead of %, in scenarios where there max HP changes during a fight

    3) we still don't have that extra decimal point, which this gives you (and beyond)

    Post edited by Shecks on
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