Shop Policies and Wishlist for Player-Run Shops

124

Comments

  • I feel like in general people want to "turn a profit" in game. I pirate NOT because the 20k I pinch once every 5 years offsets ammo use/salvage and tokens/ship upkeep, but because I like the rp it brings. Why would anybody sell clothes and jewelry if they wanted to turn a profit? Shit, from what I've seen there are people who aren't even selling armor at comm cost, let alone valuing their time into it. 

    The credit market is a perfect example of how people want exponential profits. If we all wanna agree to sell credits at 5k and shops at 100k then let's do it. But that won't happen because inflation is a real thing that happens even in fake economies. The first 10 people who list credits at 5k will have them bought and resold at 14k
  • edited April 2020
    Because we've moved over here, so I don't want to respond in Mem Quotes, I'll move this here.

    Prythe said:
    Achilles said:
    @Prythe I'm asking how much you paid and to who.  If it was directly to IRE is different than if Shallam got it 2000cr.  I would be telling Sothantos to sell every shop in town for 1000cr if that was a possibility.  
    I paid gold directly to players. I have no idea what they paid Shallam as they had already owned the shop for quite some time before they sold it to me.

    Yes, I am avoiding answering this. I don't remember exactly, but it was a ridiculously low amount (although a large-ish sum at the time).
    It doesn't matter what you paid then anyway. It's what it's worth now.

    If I own a house that I bought 50 years ago for 20k and have rented it out for the entire time and then I decide to sell it... I'm sorry but it ain't selling for 20k. It's selling for the 550k it's worth today.

    What I paid for it then, and whatever investment I made doesn't matter in the slightest. The only thing that matters is what it's worth now.

    It honestly doesn't matter if you don't think something is worth that much, or think people are stupid for paying that much. Fact of the matter is, someone was willing to pay that much, Targossas decided they'd rather keep the shop and profit from it further than they already do, and used a flimsy excuse to screw someone over. I say flimsy because, well, I'm sure everyone knows how recent events went and I don't need to rehash that.


    Edit: Typo

    We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.


  • Vhaith said:

    If I own a house that I bought 50 years ago for 20k and have rented it out for the entire time and then I decide to sell it... I'm sorry but it ain't selling for 20k. It's selling for the 550k it's worth today.

    Ummm... hold your horses...I don't think so! Do you even know how much you've made in rent over those 50 years? You've for sure gotten your money's worth...hand that house over you capitalist scum.
  • Thaisen said:
    Vhaith said:

    If I own a house that I bought 50 years ago for 20k and have rented it out for the entire time and then I decide to sell it... I'm sorry but it ain't selling for 20k. It's selling for the 550k it's worth today.

    Ummm... hold your horses...I don't think so! Do you even know how much you've made in rent over those 50 years? You've for sure gotten your money's worth...hand that house over you capitalist scum.
    You have to give me at least 50k though, cause that's a fair price with inflation. Even though someone offered 600k.

    We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.


  • Keorin said:
    Part of the issue here is that economics are a complete mess in this game. There's only a handful of types of items with real value, and if you're selling anything else you're just going to end up doing all the work of running a shop while taking a loss.

    Shop ownership is important because it allows someone who wants to sell things made by design skills and the like for fun to much more practically do so. People keep talking purely in terms of how much money a shop can make, but that's only one of a variety of reasons someone might want to engage in merchant rp or shop ownership.

    If you're running a shop for fun, rather than for profit, paying 2000cr for it is literally the worst idea ever. Shop rent in Targossas is like 10k/year max, with I think a 10k lease on top. Matching that investment is much easier than trying to make 2000cr back on loss-making/break-even goods.

  • SkyeSkye The Duchess Bellatere
    edited April 2020
    Silas said:
    Keorin said:
    Part of the issue here is that economics are a complete mess in this game. There's only a handful of types of items with real value, and if you're selling anything else you're just going to end up doing all the work of running a shop while taking a loss.

    Shop ownership is important because it allows someone who wants to sell things made by design skills and the like for fun to much more practically do so. People keep talking purely in terms of how much money a shop can make, but that's only one of a variety of reasons someone might want to engage in merchant rp or shop ownership.

    If you're running a shop for fun, rather than for profit, paying 2000cr for it is literally the worst idea ever. Shop rent in Targossas is like 10k/year max, with I think a 10k lease on top. Matching that investment is much easier than trying to make 2000cr back on loss-making/break-even goods.

    I did touch on this before, and you cannot use your lone city's rent policy as a  comparison when every other city is charging double to triple that.

    The reason why owning a shop is preferable to crafter merchants is because it allows someone like me, to sell my goods for an indefinite period of time without the pressure of a lease. Because the playerbase is so small, sometimes you can go for days without seeing a sale, or only a couple of items on your shop report.

    Indefinite being of course, a theoretical word here, because if for some reason, things don't work out, or you lose interest/time in maintaining the shop, you could (in theory) sell off the shop at whatever you got it for. Probably a little less given the times (if we're being realistic), but definitely more than 100k gold (I'm p sure that's even less than the gold limit on bashing).

    To put things into a number perspective, I opened my Hashan shop in 771 AF and my investment (as I wrote it down when I began my stock spreadsheet) was about 12,200,000 gold. It may have been more, because I paid a mix of gold and credits. But that's the number I wrote down so I'm not going to move imaginary goal posts on what I think I remember.

    We're now just into 828 AF. That's about 57 years worth of food sales. That number, (after deducting the yearly taxes etc) is now 11,450,250.

    It took me almost an RL year to earn 749,750 gold on F&B sales alone in a shop positioned just off the crossroads. Or on average 13,153 gold per year, but realistically some years I didn't even clear the 8500 tax goal post. A good portion of these sales come from sub-80s who are eating out of necessity. And this is in Hashan.

    So the exorbitant price serves very much like an escrow. Nobody in their right mind would believe they'll make back a several hundred credit investment back on crafted sales alone. 

    That said, putting the profit margin aside, the joy of running a crafter shop is having a reasonable turnover to showcase new wares.

    Can you imagine the food sales in a city where a notable part of the population has a class skill that negates the need to eat? Why would I run a shop on a finite lease (however cheap) where the turnover is likely to be so bad that the same wares sit in the shop for years on end with barely a change? (which is like, half the reason why I gave up my Mhaldor lease eventually btw, I couldn't compete with the Bertram Special)


  • Did I miss the section where a player owned shop suddenly became city owned? 

    Was the shop always Shallam owned?
  • Skye said:

    So the exorbitant price serves very much like an escrow. Nobody in their right mind would believe they'll make back a several hundred credit investment back on crafted sales alone. 
    Pretty much this. If you buy a 1000 credit shop, at the very least you own a 1k credit property.

    Except as clearly demonstrated, if it's in a city, all it takes is one jackass in charge to decide otherwise.
  • Tahquil said:
    Did I miss the section where a player owned shop suddenly became city owned? 

    Was the shop always Shallam owned?
    Nope! It was player owned but Targossas yanked it because they have the power to do that any time they feel like it. Isn't that fun? 
  • ArchaeonArchaeon Ur mums house lol
    I'm sorry that ic actions have ic consequences and you feel oocly upset (not sorry)
  • The moment that premium currency gets involved, there are OOC consequences too, that's the whole issue.

    Seizing a shop makes perfect sense from a wholly IC perspective, it's totally justifiable if you just look at the roleplay. But from the perspective of players, it's unbelievably shitty.

    I also hate it because it means that long-term diplomatic issues are now going to revolve around premium currency, which just doesn't make for terribly interesting dynamics, if you ask me.
  • Keorin said:
    The moment that premium currency gets involved, there are OOC consequences too, that's the whole issue.

    Seizing a shop makes perfect sense from a wholly IC perspective, it's totally justifiable if you just look at the roleplay. But from the perspective of players, it's unbelievably shitty.

    I also hate it because it means that long-term diplomatic issues are now going to revolve around premium currency, which just doesn't make for terribly interesting dynamics, if you ask me.
    Eyo gurl we got Liliana's shops too. Tyvm
  • AchillesAchilles Los Angeles
    City Shops arent worth 2000 credits, otherwise we wouldnt be renting them out for less than 1cr per Achaean year.  
    image
  • edited April 2020
    I don't know what anyone expects the alternative to be. Are the admin supposed to step in and force the city to keep the shop open if they can't pay the 'credit value'? If they can't or won't pay it, can the city just keep it shut down and locked then? If they can't do that, why would cities ever sell someone a shop, knowing that they could mechanically lose agency over a part of the city? Where is the line supposed to be drawn between safeguarding player investment and allowing players control over their organizations?

    The answer to me is that the line was already drawn, and this is why cities retain ultimate mechanical control over ownership. Yes, it really sucks to lose something you value and I sympathize with that, but it's not at all a grey area to me. The way it's laid out is intentional in order to preserve what autonomy the game is able to afford to the players.


  • The line is probably drawn at players knowing that an investment was paid and not using poorly thought-out and lazy oversights to their own advantage. 

    But this is, again systemic of “but we may lose” mindset very strongly pervading a playerbase that seems very open to wanting consideration for their problems, but so easily ready to treat others as nothing more than a number for their own fun. 
  • Achilles said:
    City Shops arent worth 2000 credits, otherwise we wouldnt be renting them out for less than 1cr per Achaean year.  
    Correction: -Targossas- shops aren’t worth that much.... well.... anymore...
  • edited April 2020
    Issam said:
    I don't know what anyone expects the alternative to be. Are the admin supposed to step in and force the city to keep the shop open if they can't pay the 'credit value'? If they can't or won't pay it, can the city just keep it shut down and locked then? If they can't do that, why would cities ever sell someone a shop, knowing that they could mechanically lose agency over a part of the city? Where is the line supposed to be drawn between safeguarding player investment and allowing players control over their organizations?

    The answer to me is that the line was already drawn, and this is why cities retain ultimate mechanical control over ownership. Yes, it really sucks to lose something you value and I sympathize with that, but it's not at all a grey area to me. The way it's laid out is intentional in order to preserve what autonomy the game is able to afford to the players.


    This is a lot of slippery slope arguing. This wasn't a case of Targossas being unable to pay for a shop, or it being otherwise unaffordable or there being no other options. There was already an offer made on the shop (for 2k credits, apparently, so clearly it was worth that much to someone). That deal was prevented from going through for the sake of wanting to use it for petty retribution. Targossas made an ultimatum that they knew wasn't going to be met, and then used the public news drama that popped up as an excuse to not even follow that ultimatum.

    The other option here wasn't "let people keep their shops" it was "let the deal go through and force the other shop to be sold". RP-wise, you're still dealing the faction you don't like a blow (they're still losing shops), but you're doing so in a way that doesn't completely rob players of a lot of investment.

    There are certainly situations where it makes sense to seize shops, and you're right that there needs to be a line drawn. But this wasn't close to a situation like that. And while I completely sympathise with the rp of the scenario, taking hundreds of dollars of premium currency from other players shouldn't be the go-to response to dealing with rp conflict, especially rp conflict that many players and admin both have considered desirable for the state of the game (there have been plenty of leaders in Targ, after all, that have OOCly wanted to push Cyrene and Targ further apart). If you ask me, it's on the same level as emptying house or city coffers when you turn traitor and leave to another city (IE, it's plenty reasonable rp, but it's OOCly an asshole move), and there's a reason we moved past that as a community.
  • Keorin said:
    Issam said:
    I don't know what anyone expects the alternative to be. Are the admin supposed to step in and force the city to keep the shop open if they can't pay the 'credit value'? If they can't or won't pay it, can the city just keep it shut down and locked then? If they can't do that, why would cities ever sell someone a shop, knowing that they could mechanically lose agency over a part of the city? Where is the line supposed to be drawn between safeguarding player investment and allowing players control over their organizations?

    The answer to me is that the line was already drawn, and this is why cities retain ultimate mechanical control over ownership. Yes, it really sucks to lose something you value and I sympathize with that, but it's not at all a grey area to me. The way it's laid out is intentional in order to preserve what autonomy the game is able to afford to the players.


    This is a lot of slippery slope arguing. This wasn't a case of Targossas being unable to pay for a shop, or it being otherwise unaffordable or there being no other options. There was already an offer made on the shop (for 2k credits, apparently, so clearly it was worth that much to someone). That deal was prevented from going through for the sake of wanting to use it for petty retribution. Targossas made an ultimatum that they knew wasn't going to be met, and then used the public news drama that popped up as an excuse to not even follow that ultimatum.

    The other option here wasn't "let people keep their shops" it was "let the deal go through and force the other shop to be sold". RP-wise, you're still dealing the faction you don't like a blow (they're still losing shops), but you're doing so in a way that doesn't completely rob players of a lot of investment.

    There are certainly situations where it makes sense to seize shops, and you're right that there needs to be a line drawn. But this wasn't close to a situation like that. And while I completely sympathise with the rp of the scenario, taking hundreds of dollars of premium currency from other players shouldn't be the go-to response to dealing with rp conflict, especially rp conflict that many players and admin both have considered desirable for the state of the game (there have been plenty of leaders in Targ, after all, that have OOCly wanted to push Cyrene and Targ further apart). If you ask me, it's on the same level as emptying house or city coffers when you turn traitor and leave to another city (IE, it's plenty reasonable rp, but it's OOCly an asshole move), and there's a reason we moved past that as a community.
    Except taking hundreds of dollars of premium currency is the go-to response for when you lose Priest / Paladin / Infernal / Druid / Sylvan / Sentinel / Apostate whenever the person fucks up.

    Sure, they get half of their investment back.. but these scenarios happen.
  • edited April 2020
    Edit: nope. Not engaging on this trainwreck except to say forestal is still pretty damn playable even while enemied.

  • Having one thing that's kind of messed up doesn't mean that something even more messed up is justified.

    Even then, it doesn't tend to be half as bad, cost-wise. Having to change your first class is some 425 credits at the most (so 3-4x less than what we're talking about), it only applies to four classes, and it doesn't happen "whenever the person fucks up" for all but a barest handful of people. There is also a lot more middle ground between owning a shop and having it seized with no reimbursement than there is with having or not having devotion/necromancy regen.

    Yes, these scenarios happen, but I would think that as a playerbase we should be trying to minimise it, not shrug and say that because it happens sometimes, it's just generally an okay thing.
  • edited April 2020
    The Divine voice of Twilight echoes in your head, "See that it is. I espy a tithe of potential in your mortal soul, Astarod Blackstone. Let us hope that it flourishes and does not falter as so many do."

    Aegis, God of War says, "You are dismissed from My demense, Astarod. Go forth and fight well. Bleed fiercely, and climb the purpose you have sought to chase for."
  • It's been years since an excom/anathema that wasn't giving ample warning to the offender to stop doing something. Even forest enemying requires some action on the offender's part, whether that's actual extermination or aiding someone who is.

    Comparing that with "You are a member of an organization that our organization has decided not to like, despite the value your shop adds and your lack of offense in this matter, we are taking your shop" is a bit much. One of them involves actual guilt, the other is politics especially when people don't actively try and piss off the org that houses their shop.

    Incidentally, this could be solved by cities just leasing the shops rather than selling them.
  • Again,  you'd have to be pretty f'n out of your damn mind to buy a city shop now unless it's dirt cheap.  

    The following math assumes current median credit costs and game date conversions. 

    2000 credits = 28 million gold at 14000 credit market rate.

    General shop leasing rates/taxes = 30000 per ic year/60000 per ooc month.

    If you pay 2000 credits, or 28 million  gold, for a shop, you'd be paying 166.6 credits per ooc month for the first ooc year. After that first year,  if you even still play the game and assuming no org hops resulting in loss of shop, you'd owe only city taxes. This is a pretty substantial amount.  

    Consider the above with the added gamble of losing it all when your org decides to do something out of your control,  or another org does. 

    I was an idiot for paying that much for one of my shops, but I had always wanted to own one.  Since all this started,  I've seen what a stupid thing that was to do when I could have just found one to rent. 

    Do not, I repeat,  DO NOT spend your money on shops here in their current form.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with renting.  The only way I could recommend buying a shop is if it's going for less than 500, way less.  
    Give us -real- shop logs! Not another misinterpretation of features we ask for, turned into something that either doesn't help at all, or doesn't remotely resemble what we wanted to begin with.

    Thanks!

    Current position of some of the playerbase, instead of expressing a desire to fix problems:

    Vhaynna: "Honest question - if you don't like Achaea or the current admin, why do you even bother playing?"


  • SkyeSkye The Duchess Bellatere
    edited April 2020
    After thinking about it, I feel like one way out may be to convert the shops as we know them into leases (think of them more like licenses like crafting licenses) instead and the actual physical shop into 'lots'.

    The first thing to do is to open several vacant lots all around Sapience/Meropis.

    Secondly, every shop in a proprietor's name is converted either into a personal lease, or an org lease (city/house/order).

    A lease and a lot are distinct from each other but cannot function without the other.


    Lots
    An unoccupied lot is simply a vacant room that is designated for commerce. In a city, the chancellor (or admin for non-city lots) can designate the property tax for the lots much like how shops are being rented out at present.

    The city has the option of buying whatever leases are available from Delos to muscle out the erstwhile shop owners (basically telling them to get out and find a non-city lot), and occupy all their lots. They can also add conditions or clauses to the listing in Delos (see Leases), or remove the listing entirely.

    Village lots are also contingent upon CITY RELATIONSHIP status. If they are allied to a city that is hostile to yours, or if you're enemied, their lots will also not be available to you.

    Leases
    A lease without a lot is simply a shop in potentia, it is non-transferrable. Leases can be purchased in Delos or the Chancellor's office in any city and there will only ever be as many leases as there are available lots. A billboard in the licensing room will show the area (but not the exact room) where there are vacant lots and how many.

    There are also two kinds of leases. Personal and Organisational.

    Since we already set an unreasonable baseline, I don't see personal leases being cheaper than 1500 bound credits at this point. A player can own up to 4 leases with each being more expensive than the last. Players who currently own more than 4 shops will be grandfathered in, but there's no guarantee that they will be able to hold on to their current lots.

    Organisational leases must be purchased by the Houseleader/city leader/orderhead and they belong to the organisation. They will cost 500cr for cities, but 750cr for houses/orders. Cities may acquire as many leases as they do lots so the potential to occupy all their lots and convert exclusively to gold-based rent is there. Houses and Orders may only hold up to 4. Only cities do not have to pay increased prices per lease owned.

    Any member of an org may stock/price wares, but they still require a stockroom key to enter.

    All leases may be traded back in to Delos at two-thirds value much like artefacts. This will open up fresh leases for other players who will need to buy it at full price.

    Leases can also be automatically broken/refunded by the system at tradein value if:
    1) Player has retired (investment counts towards retirement).
    2) Player has been dormant / unranked for longer than 4 RL months, this is regardless of shrubbing. That is to say, they cannot carry out their shopkeeping duties and are occupying a lot and taking up a very limited lease. (lease broken and refunded at tradein value)
    3) Player has gone 4 RL months without appending their lease to a shop. (lease refunded at tradein value)
    4) Player has failed to pay taxes for up to 4 Achaean years due to negligence or refusal to vacate after shop has been locked by the chancellory. (Lease broken)

    By our powers combine...

    When a lease holder appends their lease to a vacant shop lot, the lot transforms into their shop front with a stockroom. 

    Stockrooms still require physical keys, which can be made at the locksmith.

    In the event of an org dispute and the shopkeeper wants to or are being forced to vacate, they only need to break the lease to detach their lease from the lot and vacate the premises. The shop front and stockroom  disappear and the lot becomes empty. The lease returns to being a shop in potentia. Shop content *must* be removed from the stockroom before detaching the lease. This is to prevent people from using their stockroom as non-decay warehouses.

    Chancellors and cities may no longer seize shops or forcibly break leases, but they *can* lock the shop front and stockrooms, essentially barring the shopkeeper from doing business until the dispute is settled.

    Enemying a shopkeeper does not break the lease. This is to prevent people from spitefully destroying a shopkeeper's stock in the effort to evict them quickly.

    Scenarios:

    1) Rogue McRoguerson is a full rogue with no issues with anyone. He has no lease and wishes to buy one. He goes to Delos to look at the listings and because he has no beef with anyone at all, he will see the following:

    The current lots are available:
    Arcadia: 1
    Ashtan: 1
    Jaru: 1
    Lake Vundamere: 1
    New Thera: 1
    You have 0 shop leases and may purchase up to 3 more.

    2) Skye is a Nereian rogue, she owns two shop leases. She goes to Delos to look at the listings and because Vastar and Neroes hate each other's guts, she will see the following:

    The current lots are available:
    Ashtan: 1
    Jaru: 1
    Lake Vundamere: 1
    New Thera: 1
    You have 2 shop leases and may purchase up to 1 more.


    3) Minifie is Mhaldorian. She owns one shop lease in a shop in Mhaldor. Because of a world event, everyone hates Mhaldor, when she goes to the listings, she will see the following:
    The current lots are available:
    Lake Vundamere: 1
    You have 1 shop lease and may purchase up to 1 more.

    Minifie thinks to herself: This is bullshit. Everyone hates Mhaldor! And then she breaks her lease, quits the city, and resolves her enemy status with Ashtan. Her listings will automatically update to:

    The current lots are available:
    Arcadia: 1
    Ashtan: 1
    Lake Vundamere: 1
    New Thera: 1
    You have 1 shop lease and may purchase up to 2 more.

    Meanwhile, Proficy who is enemied to everywhere under the sun, suddenly discovers that a shop lot has opened up in Mhaldor due to Minifie quitting and getting enemied for oath breaking.

    The current lots are available:
    Mhaldor: 1
    You have 0 shop leases and may purchase up to 1 more.

    Potential issues:

    • I was forced to break my lease, what do I do now?
    You can visit Delos to see where you may next append your lease. If there no other places suitable, due to citizenship etc, you may instead opt to wait until one opens up, or trade in your lease at two-thirds the purchase price. If you cannot find a suitable lot within 4 RL months, your lease will be automatically refunded, also at two-thirds the purchase price.

    • I am a Chancellor and I want to reclaim this lot but the shopkeeper refuses to vacate! What do I do?
    Lock up the shop and wait 4 Achaean years (about 2 RL months). As a city, you are entitled to bar the shopkeeper from doing business until they acquiesce to vacate or come to some other compromise.

    • I want to purchase a lease, but there are none available! What do I do?
    Wait patiently. If you cannot wait patiently, you have to find someone willing to trade-in their lease, and make arrangements. As leases cannot be transferred, most likely you will have to pay them the one-third difference in trade-in value and then purchase the lease for yourself. This will ultimately be more expensive than just being patient.

    • I owned 6 shops before this change. What happens if I want to trade-in some of my leases?
    If you were grandfathered into the lease system, all your existing leases have a trade-in value based on the base price for personal leases (two-thirds of 1500 bound credits).

    • I am an Organisational Leader and I wish to purchase a lease for my org.
    Organisational leases may only be purchased with city/house/order credits (500cr for cities/750cr for house/orders). If your organisation is short of credits, members may make donations to the organisation via the bank. This counts as a voluntary donation, it does not give any house member any rights over the lease, regardless of how sizeable their contribution may have been.

    • I am an Organisational Leader and I wish to trade-in my organisation's lease.
    Organisational leases may be traded in for two-thirds the original purchase price, the credits will automatically be refunded to the organisation's bank account

    • I have a fully functioning shop in X location. Can I rent it out to someone for gold?
    There is nothing, apart from any particular city's policies, to stop you from doing so. However, the taxes will still need to be paid by you, the shopkeeper.

    • I want to use my shop as a warehouse to exhibit all the rare lootz I got! This is in a village where there are no shopkeeping policies so I can do what I like, right?
    1. Don't be a rich asshole with such a finite resource.
    2. Shops found abusing their stockrooms as non-decay rooms can be reported via issue and seized by administration




  • Where is the neutral locksmith, or will players wanting a shop in Arcadia have to go to an actual city for keys?

    Aside from that, I approve as someone who will never want a shop in any form.
Sign In or Register to comment.