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Ship trading

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  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAMember Posts: 2,908 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Mindshell said:
    This is already the case at unmanned harbours though, if you leave your ship too long it'll sink. Everyone is forced to leave/return after 2 years as is.
    I mean force the ship itself to return to mainland. Currently you can ship return with bait and gold, repair, and keep your ship clogging a harbour in perpetuity and there are people who do it.

    @Ismay that's such a ridiculous argument, Achaea is littered with opportunity costs where, if you want a certain luxury you have to do certain things to maintain it. Having to sail on occasion to reach islands to prevent people from clogging harbours with a ship they never intend to sail again is a perfectly reasonable thing. Y'all were given a good thing with small harbours and ship return and a handful of you are abusing the hell out of it so you never have to sail. Of course, it makes no sense to implement such a change without changing the cost/consequences of sinking. Changing the consequences of sinking to be less brutal should be priority number one to improving seafaring for everyone.
    image
    TaleilaSiduriTorinnAuria
  • TaleilaTaleila Member Posts: 63 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Tahquil said:
    I'd rather if the points were back on discussing trading rather than if piracy and the retribution it brings about.

    Let's be honest, the only give-back piracy had to the community got a huge kick in the balls once forceboarding was removed and charismatic, face-to-face interactions that did led to any sort of roleplay other than "STEAMROLL THAT FUCKER" got nixed.
    Gonna backtrack a bit here, because I'm just getting caught up.

    Reminisce with me, if you will, back to that very first interaction I -ever- had with Jinsun. Taleila hadn't long finished paying off her ship and renamed it. One of Taleila's children had marketed that they were seeking passage to Clockwork Isle. Taleila's ship was docked in Riparium, as it usually was at that time, because Clockwork Isle was a place I frequented back then. Contacted the child, told her to meet me on the ship. Because she marketed for passage, I was already preparing for a dealing with Pirates. We set sail, and were about 5 rooms outside of the harbour at Clockwork, when, lo and behold, out pops Jinsun on Yard and Fundament. (Internal dialogue: "Called it.") He gets one shot fired off--likely grappling me. I don't even give him the chance to hail me before I yelled to him, offering to pay him if he'd stop firing. I had COMPLETE control in that situation, as the person under attack. He didn't fire another shot. We paid him, and because of the amount we offered him, he even went so far as to give my ship 6 months of safe passage. Then he went on about his day (with me asking him questions about things in tells, because well, that's how Taleila do).

    I've been on both sides of interactions with pirates. When you deal with pirates, YOU are the one in control of the interaction. Because if you show us respect, we'll give it right back. It's REALLY simple not to get sunk. (And sinking sucks, let me tell you. I dropped over 40k just to get a ship back after going down from dealings with a leviathan--and they're a lot less forgiving than Pirates, let me tell you.) If I show up and fire on your ship, and you yell "Hey, stop, I have gold. Lets strike a deal." (or some such something similar) We hold fire while working out negotiations (Unless you do something so monumentally stupid as to try and escape, instead of actually negotiating. At that point, you lose all respect and I will not try to negotiate with you again and will just sink that ship any time I encounter it, forevermore). But if you want to yell obscenities and vitriol, we won't give you half a chance, and we won't even feel bad for it. If we fire on you, hail you, and you choose not to respond? You'll sink, and we won't feel bad, because we gave you the chance to respond.  When I first joined the PoM (and honestly, when I sailed with Jinsun before I was even officially a member) I sailed with Jinsun fairly often. We're talking about over like.. 15+ IG years here (personal records show my earliest logs on ship combat at 7 June 2018). In all that time, I have NEVER seen him literally just "steamroll" someone, unless they decided to be stupid and yell obscenities and vitriol. 

    And if you don't want us to fire on you at all? There's always the purchasing of safe passage, which you can contact -any pirate- about, at any time, even if we're not in game. Shoot us a message, or a letter. We're pretty good about contacting people back. Pirates aren't nearly the assholes everyone makes us out to be. We enjoy good RP, and fun interactions just as much as the next guy. And Sinking sucks. We KNOW sinking sucks, and we give you RP opportunity to avoid getting sunk. Our ships sink just like anyone else, and when we get sunk, we have to pay too. We know it sucks. Yes, we enjoy ship combat. It's fun for us. It would be more fun if it didn't cost so damn much to salvage ships.

    tl;dr: If you give us nothing to work with, we do what we do. If you be dicks, we do what we do. If you give us some healthy interaction/RP (even if it's anger, without the vitriol--meaning YOU FIGHT BACK) you have better luck dealing with us. If you just want to avoid getting sunk, just pay us. Our prices are very reasonable, when compared to sinking.


    and if ship trades didn't suck so hard, I'd do them more often, but they interest me less and less. There have been a lot of great suggestions by several different people, ( @Laedha and @Jinsun and a couple others I can't recall straight off without looking back) that could make ship trades a lot more interesting to me personally (as in, for my own pockets, and not because Pirate).
    Cailin
  • VinzentVinzent Member Posts: 157 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I think most people get caught on giving the middle finger to morality and paying pirates, is all, and most reject that proposal on the basis of it being wrong. It is, however, trivially easy to run away and not pay all the same. 
    Jinsun
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAMember Posts: 2,908 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    There is an effective and welcome RP middlefinger like @Laedha who will call me scum and tell me it's her life's work to ruin me and then there's FUCK YOU I WAS AFK YOU TALENTLESS BITCH type thing I get from most of you. Looking at you Cyrene sex alts.
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    TaleilaTorinnCailin
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,172 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    We all have our frustrations, but its probably best for us all if we keep this strictly to suggestions on how to improve instead of unhappy anecdotes and name-calling. The admins don't need any other excuse to pass the thread over. Its already related to Seafaring xD

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • TaleilaTaleila Member Posts: 63 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Jinsun said:
    There is an effective and welcome RP middlefinger like @Laedha who will call me scum and tell me it's her life's work to ruin me and then there's FUCK YOU I WAS AFK YOU TALENTLESS BITCH type thing I get from most of you. Looking at you Cyrene sex alts.
    Honestly, I just wanna say how much I have enjoyed the interactions I've had with @Laedha. Not going into detail about any of them, but it's refreshing to find interactions that aren't all "YAY PIRATES" (which I get a lot, because people come to me and bring others to me, who are interested in being pirates) but also aren't distinctively "dealing with Artanis".
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAMember Posts: 2,908 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    But I have an RP reason to be an asshole ! (Obviously I'm kidding )
    image
    Taleila
  • AereidhnaAereidhna DallasMember Posts: 682 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    The times I attempted to negotiate with pirates (3-4 RL years ago), I was ignored and sunk anyhow because they weren't bothering to pay attention to tells. So I stopped negotiating, RP a non-com who hates pirates and would rather scuttle the ship than negotiate, and got better at running and stopped caring about salvage costs. Maybe one day I'll actually let @Laedha teach me to fire back.

    Anyway, I personally would like to see the seas more active, and I find it incredibly frustrating that it sounds like there's no admin support in the direction of updating ship trades to be worthwhile. I also would be interested in changes to island harbours, because while I do benefit xp-wise from camping Ilyrean and Suliel sometimes, the whole dynamic of camping islands for more than like 2 IC years at a time is ridiculous (although some change to northern chops to make Ilyrean and Suliel worthwhile to sail to would be nice, if we're omitting camping). 
    Laedha
  • IsmayIsmay Member Posts: 649 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Honestly, there's just too much hassle to sailing. The time investment with chops, winds, etc. Not to mention the threat of pirates sinking you. Makes any effort put into sailing not worth it for some people.

    From what I've read about trades, there's no way I'm even attempting those. The payout isn't worth the effort/threat involved.
    Lenn
  • RackhamRackham Member Posts: 75 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Honestly, there's too much hassle to raiding. The time investment with scripting, curing counts, etc. Not to mention the threat of having a bounty on you. Makes any effort put into raiding not worth it to some people.

    And from what I've read about Annwyn, there's no way I'm even attempting that. The payout isn't worth the effort/threat involved.

    /S

    Different strokes for different folks :P
    CerysTaleila
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Reward Apr-18 May-18 Jun-18 Jul-18 Aug-18 Sep-18 Oct-18 Nov-18 Dec-18 Grand Total Percentage
    10 bound credits



    1
    2 2
    5 0.91%
    100000gp
    1 4 1 1 2 2 2 2 15 2.73%
    200000gp
    1
    1

    1 2
    5 0.91%
    25 bound credits 1
    3 1 2
    1
    1 9 1.64%
    5 bound credits 3 1

    4
    4 1 4 17 3.09%
    65000gp 3 2 4 3 4 4 1 4 6 31 5.64%
    75000gp 3 3
    4 3 3 3 3 2 24 4.36%
    a birdcage covered in a white cloth 1 3 1
    1 3
    5 3 17 3.09%
    barrel of rum 8 1 3 8 5 7 9 4 2 47 8.55%
    Black finned flare 5
    2 1 1 2 1 2 2 16 2.91%
    Crew experience 6 14 11 11 13 16 11 6 10 98 17.82%
    Crew morale 4 10 8 7 8 4 7 10 7 65 11.82%
    Golden Gryphon 5 4 2 4 4 3 4 1 1 28 5.09%
    great Notic amulet 2 2 3 2 1 1 4 3 1 19 3.45%
    Hollowed Skull 3 4 2 3 1
    1 2
    16 2.91%
    missed
    4






    4 0.73%
    Reticulated giraffe
    1
    1
    1 1
    3 7 1.27%
    Seaworn pair of stone dice 1 1 1
    2
    1 3 1 10 1.82%
    Striking sea captain's hat 4 3 3 4 2 6 3 5 10 40 7.27%
    Unmarked wooden crate 3
    2 2


    1 1 9 1.64%
    Weapon ammunition 4 7 10 9 9 4 5 4 4 56 10.18%
    Wicker basket containing a ginger kitten 4
    1

    4 1
    2 12 2.18%
    Grand Total 60 62 60 62 62 60 62 60 62 550 100.00%

    There are still same start / end harbour trade deals happening, despite the announce post to the contrary, just no gold / credit reward trades.

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
    GreysTysandr
  • RiellRiell Member Posts: 209 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Klendathu, I don't do anything with ships, but I'd like to commend you for your work!  This is super informative for everyone :)
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,200 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I haven't been keeping very close track, but does anyone know if completing ship trades in general contribute to crew morale and experience? If not, this should definitely be changed or made more noticeable in my opinion. I've completed multiple trades on a ship and haven't noticed any improvement to crew experience or morale unless specifically completing trades for those. That seems rather counter-productive.


    Mroxyl
  • LaedhaLaedha Member Posts: 143 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Kresslack trading doesn't get you extra experience beyond what you would normally get for sailing around. 
  • RamiliesRamilies Member Posts: 16
    Personally I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this entire thread.

    I love sailing, and yes we are a conflict based game. I do have one idea that may solve some way what the problem is. Just as Ships are salvageable, and you can get back some or most of your crew, I would request the harbour masters of Sapience to begin Salvaging the crates of the goods lost at sea, Alas salvaging operations have been over taken by adventurers and cost them coin.

    However, if they were to salvage lost cargo, selling it back to the ship captain for a decent profit, the harbours would profit from having more gold, and in turn, they may seek to increase the number of berths they have for ships. 

    I mean yes some complain that the harbours are too small, that some ships dock indefinitely, but some harbours make little coin. Also, I would see the harbours begin charging rental fees every 6 achaean months for those ships that seem stagnant, just sitting there for years on end.

    For the Harbour Masters! May they make the coin they need for their harbours.

     
  • VinzentVinzent Member Posts: 157 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I would not enjoy yet another cost to owning a ship, and I imagine those who own many would be even less appreciative.
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,200 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I would really love the ability to transfer cargo between ships, even though I know it's very unlikely to happen.


    LaedhaVinzentZbacoMroxyl
  • MroxylMroxyl Member Posts: 118 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited June 5
    I'd like to get thoughts on an idea from those interested. As a note, I'm not a coder, so can not comment on the possibilities of it being able to be done. Asking thoughts on the idea itself.

    A seaspell that prevents a ship from being targeted by another ship, and also prevents that ship from targeting another. Could only be invoked in a harbour, and would cost 25,000 gold to invoke it or shut it off. The spell could only be turned off or on every two weeks, real world time.

    I do understand that it isn't a perfect solution, but I'd like to see more people active on the seas. At the moment, it's not uncommon to find people interested in sailing, they check if certain people are awake, and, if they are, 'Nope, I'll go do something else.'  How many ships never leave harbour at all, because their owners aren't interested in dealing with getting sunk? This would give an option for being peaceful, but you can switch the ship if you're looking for combat.  It would stop someone from flipping the switch in the middle of a fight, or changing it every day. Granted, someone with multiple ships could have immunity on some of them, but they also couldn't go attacking if they are on the peaceful ship.

  • VinzentVinzent Member Posts: 157 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited June 5
    That defeats the purpose of the sea being a  treacherous plane, imo. Using gold for a seaspell is sorta silly too.

    Edit: It would be better to make people participate in ship combat more and/or act as escorts or do other activities that dissuade active piracy or stupidity. Inventing a mechanic that motivates and rewards laziness isn't suitable. The argument could be made that ship combat is too complex and requires automation unless you want to lose more often than not, so changing that could perhaps draw more people in. Or cities could have more reasons to own ships other than to say they do and trade on them.
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,299 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    What about a spell that draws the targetting of ships to you? 
  • LennLenn Member Posts: 504 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Vinzent
    If I recall, all but the very best trade deals are very much balanced for one person, and of questionable value even in that case.

    If you want more people sailing in groups, there's got to be mechanics and rewards that accommodate that style of play.

    Otherwise why sail when you can get to dragon and hunt instead?
    MroxylArin!
  • MroxylMroxyl Member Posts: 118 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited June 5
    @Vinzent I'm open to ideas that put people at sea. The current situation isn't working, so?????

    I'm not interested in ship combat, so anything that makes it more like getting murdered on land where it's over in a couple of minutes and you go your way doing what you want, I'd likely be supportive of. I'd really like to be able to put contracts on people for piracy, but pretty sure that's never happening.

    Edit: The idea of the gold cost was so there's some cost to either going aggressive or non combatant. Likely a sea spell wouldn't work, either, it's more to toss an idea out and get thoughts on it.
  • VinzentVinzent Member Posts: 157 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited June 6
    I'm not sure how well that would work, @Tahquil.

    There are only two trades I consider worth anyone's time unless you're after items, @Lenn, those being the 200k and 25cr (gems > spices). In either case, there are methods of working as a group that are simple and effective. For example, if a merchant ship (or someone without the expertise of ship combat) decides to sail one of the aforementioned trades but wishes for protection, they can offer a percentage of the estimated cost of the trade for themselves as pay. If you use, say, 75k gold over the course of a six spices trade, you could offer to pay 50% of that cost. It could be upfront, half at start and half at finish, or all at completion. You could offer more or less, too. Given the overall cost of such a trade and the horrendous cost of credits, you could pay a large sum of gold before it becomes unprofitable - either to a single ship or multiple, if you wish to hire more than one. The problem I was attempting to address is that those people to hire are hard to find and largely do not exist.

    The reasons for that are many, but the cost of losing a ship (and getting one in the first place) is great and will make most shy away from following such an avenue of play, hence my suggestion that a [minor] simplification of ship combat might draw some in - reducing the cost of losing a ship would be a benefit as well. An example I can think of is that city owned ships could be drawn into their harbors for free, provided the city has one. This obviously alienates cities without harbors, so it is not a perfect solution. It would, however, give more use to having city ships in the first place and allow more risky choices to be made without severe/irritating/disheartening consequences.

    I understand the current situation does not work well, @Mroxyl, which is why I suggested something that is not the current situation. I do stand by a non-combatant seaspell (or any mechanic in its place) defeating the purpose of the sea being a treacherous plane in the first place, and as such I highly doubt anything along those lines would be implemented, nor would I necessarily want anything like it to be. It does not solve the problem and would be a lazy solution that makes the situation worse overall by isolating parts of the seafaring playerbase more than they already are.
    Cailin
  • LaedhaLaedha Member Posts: 143 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Vinzent said:
    That defeats the purpose of the sea being a  treacherous plane, imo. Using gold for a seaspell is sorta silly too.

    Edit: It would be better to make people participate in ship combat more and/or act as escorts or do other activities that dissuade active piracy or stupidity. Inventing a mechanic that motivates and rewards laziness isn't suitable. The argument could be made that ship combat is too complex and requires automation unless you want to lose more often than not, so changing that could perhaps draw more people in. Or cities could have more reasons to own ships other than to say they do and trade on them.
    Ship combat is not even remotely too complex. It's much slower paced than land combat and has fewer moving parts--only five types of ammo. People just do it so rarely that it feels really hard. I'm a total non-coder and I built my ship 'system' using the nexus simplified scripting tools without much trouble. I've tried to learn the basics of land combat multiple times and it's still just word soup. 

    Not saying anybody -has- to do it, but learning enough to be able to evade an attack nearly all the time will probably take most people like 2-3 hours of practice. I feel like there's enough gold to be earned at sea from fishing and monster hunting, not even putting trades in there, that some risk of being sunk is fair. I'm very very sure the admin will never approve a spell or toggle or something that makes you unable to participate in ship combat at all because it makes sailing too low-risk for the gold you can make. 

    I would love some sort of a player-organized 'signal' that you want to be open combat and won't try to get anybody enemied for anything they do to you. I don't put a city flag on my ships for that reason. 
    CailinZbaco
  • MroxylMroxyl Member Posts: 118 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Kresslack The last 200k gold trade I did, we put about 60k gold into it, and around four hours of sailing. Fun to be sailing with a friend for the sake of fun, or teaching someone to sail. Not highly profitable, IMO, for the time invested.

    I'd like to see your suggestions brought to life, as I think it would be an improvement over the current situation.
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,733 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The best way to make seafaring worth the time and investment is to bring back forceboarding. That one skill was the only reason many people sailed, and it brought a much stronger sense of excitement and danger to sailing. Removing forceboard was probably the worst move for the game
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,866 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's a pretty damning indictment of Seafaring if the only worthwhile thing about it had nothing to do with ships at all.
    Vinzent
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