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Classleads

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  • DochithaDochitha Member Posts: 1,475 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited December 2018
    Playing DWB extensively for quite some time as a Runie, recent classleads changes to DWB bring about my concern.

    1) Extending Assault from 2.8s to 3.3s after nimble
    This change is acceptable, with the argument that most limb finishers should be defendable over a hit in room hinder plus requirement to leap over a wall, which previously DWB with L3 stars will have enough time to leap over and still finish it. However, taking forged weapons into consideration, I feel 3.3s is too punishing, however, forged can still accomplish pulp starting with whirl that takes about 1.8s balance.

    Whirl to start: 0 leg ex, 1.8 head leg, 4.2 assault, 7.7 pulp (still valid if not defended, before classlead 32)
    Doublewhirl to start: 0 leg ex, 2.4 head leg, 4.8 assault, 8.1 (this is over salve balance, pulp kill is impossible) 

    2) Recent Classleads 32 extended single whirl to the same as doublewhirl's balance. Which means, forged morningstar will no longer be able to pulp anyone. You can sit there and laugh, and they won't pulp you.

    0 leg ex, 2.4 head leg, 4.8 assault, 8.1 (this is over salve balance, pulp kill is impossible) 

    Can someone enlighten me how this is supposed to work out? I own L3s, the magin is smaller but I could still pulp. But what about forged, we trying to gate them behind arties like serpent's fang?
  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 2,124 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Have you considered the fact that maybe it was meant to require a 2 leg prep similar to pretty much every other prone-centric finisher?

  • DochithaDochitha Member Posts: 1,475 @ - Epic Achaean
    Pyori said:
    Have you considered the fact that maybe it was meant to require a 2 leg prep similar to pretty much every other prone-centric finisher?
    It has always needed 2 leg breaks. Single leg break can't pulp.
  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 2,124 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2018
    You can do:
    Left Leg (expend)
    Right Leg (or just break left/right together, and hit something else in between bals to keep/rebuild momentum)
    Break head when they apply to the second leg. If they hold on the second apply, just mangle their leg/re-break the other one again.
    assault
    pulp

  • DochithaDochitha Member Posts: 1,475 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited December 2018
    Pyori said:
    You can do:
    Left Leg (expend)
    Right Leg (or just break left/right together, and hit something else in between bals to keep/rebuild momentum)
    Break head when they apply to the second leg. If they hold on the second apply, just mangle their leg/re-break the other one again.
    assault
    pulp

    0 second apply, 0.1 break head, 2.6 assault, 4 apply head, tree and stand, 5.9 pulp  fail

  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 2,124 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2018
    Hmm. The AB still says Assault is 2.6 bal. Not 3.3 like your previous post says. In which case you wouldn't have to wait.
    0.0 R/L(expend)
    0.1 apply leg
    2.4 head
    4.1 apply head
    4.8 assault head
    7.4 pulp
    8.1 get salve bal back after dead

  • DochithaDochitha Member Posts: 1,475 @ - Epic Achaean
    Pyori said:
    Hmm. The AB still says Assault is 2.6 bal. Not 3.3 like your previous post says. In which case you wouldn't have to wait.
    0.0 R/L(expend)
    0.1 apply leg
    2.4 head
    4.1 apply head
    4.8 assault head
    7.4 pulp
    8.1 get salve bal back after dead
    Assault was ~2.8s (after nimble) before classlead 29, then on classlead 29 it was extended to ~3.3s (after nimble). So that chart won't work... I also hope AB is changed alongside classlead implementations to avoid such confusions.
  • DochithaDochitha Member Posts: 1,475 @ - Epic Achaean
    Please consider changing assault to sub 3s after nimble.
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 5,040 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2018
    Dochitha said:
    Pyori said:
    You can do:
    Left Leg (expend)
    Right Leg (or just break left/right together, and hit something else in between bals to keep/rebuild momentum)
    Break head when they apply to the second leg. If they hold on the second apply, just mangle their leg/re-break the other one again.
    assault
    pulp

    0 second apply, 0.1 break head, 2.6 assault, 4 apply head, tree and stand, 5.9 pulp  fail

    If you're doublewhirling twice before you break the head, you can throw in arm breaks to take tree out of the equation. That does come at the cost of more prep time, though. Expend on right arm could be an option to prevent tree as well, depending on how long it lasts and how much momentum it uses.
    The much bigger problem is that you can't attack twice before the head break, and then be on balance to pulp faster than the opponent can cure both legs and stand up (assuming ~0.2 second delay on curing commands). Breaking legs then just waiting on balance for the second restoration apply to break the head doesn't work because you'd lose momentum, and therefore not have enough to assault.

    0.0 - Break legs + expend
    0.2 - Apply legs
    2.4 - Break arms
    4.2 - Salve balance
    4.4 - Apply legs
    4.8 - Break head
    7.2 - Assault
    8.4 - Salve balance
    8.6 - Apply legs
    9.6 - Salve balance
    9.8 - Apply legs/stand
    10.5 - Pulp

    I'm not sure messing with assault's balance time is the ideal solution here. If assault is faster, the window for pulp with level three morningstars gets bigger, and that makes it much harder to defend against. It wouldn't be as drastic as it was before, but I don't think there's a problem with where level three DWB is right now either, so changes that impact that seem unnecessary.

    We could change whirl to be a static balance time rather than dependent on weapon speed. 2.3 seconds would put it at ~2.1 seconds with nimble, which I think is about the speed of doublewhirl with level three morningstars. I think that should allow pulp with forged morningstars, but wouldn't increase the window again for level three morningstar DWB because they don't benefit from using whirl over doublewhirl. Rough timeline (again, assuming 0.2 second delay on curing commands):

    0.0 - Break leg + expend
    0.2 - Apply legs
    2.1 - Break leg/head
    4.2 - Salve balance
    4.4 - Apply head
    4.5 - Assault
    7.8 - Pulp
    8.4 - Salve balance

    Tumble could be an issue there, though they'd have to tumble before or pretty soon after the second attack to get out of the room before pulp. I think that's roughly the window we look for. Against DWC you have to tumble before the second leg break to get out before disembowel (and that requires breaking torso before); DWB could get something like Intimidate (though with slightly different requirements) if it proves necessary.
  • DochithaDochitha Member Posts: 1,475 @ - Epic Achaean
    Fixing balance times looks good. In fact weapon "speed" stats can really be removed and all classes and their attack speed standardized, with artefacts affecting just accuracy and damage. Probably harder to sell but can always make them 0.05s step away from each other so they are not too different yet enjoy speed benefit, or even throw bonus to hunting... or retain hunting speed, only standardize pvp.
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 5,040 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The time to make a change like that would have been when the Tradeskill and Weaponmastery changes happened, as there were far fewer people who owned artefact weapons then. I can't see it happening now.
  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,695 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Realistically with serverside ping 8.1 seconds in your charting out is easily a kill in practice. Also, if you're breaking arms, you do it before legs, not after, which would also make the setup work.

    Runewarden is probably in the worst spot of the DWBs in that particular regard because I'm not sure if you can hold them in room for the arm breaks, but for paladin you have piety and infernal with gravehands and vivisect threat is insane.

    I agree changing whirl to be static would be the best solution, though.
  • DochithaDochitha Member Posts: 1,475 @ - Epic Achaean
    I must give an update here, it looks like WHIRL extending to ~2.5s was silently readjusted to ~2s now, which is a good news!

    Conclusion: Forged using whirl to start can still complete pulp path now. No worries, all good! Doublewhirl however breaches 8s so forged should always try starting sequence using whirl.
    (tested with Mindshell)
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