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Is Achaea losing its "world"?

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  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,506 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kiet said:
    Farrah said:
    Kiet said:
    Shirszae said:
    Kiet said:
    Shirszae said:
    Dunno. The House wipe had to be 100 or 0, I think. The moment someone was given the option to say no, everyone was going to say no because no one wanted to lose the House they were invested in. House ren might have been 100% necessary, but I believe it has handled 100% the wrong way too.
    The individual Houses were not the ones that decided, the cities were. Cities should've had the spine and foresight to realize that some Houses were simply much harder to replace than others, but instead we ended up with everyone trying to play 'fair.' Of course, that's easier said than done, since people are incapable of putting away their biases. Overall, though, I believe we all know the mojushai and the occultists were on entirely different tiers of 'relevant to achaean lore.'
    It still amounts to the same. It was either 100 or 0. Every House was relevant to the people in it. Just becaue it didnt met your relevancy criteria doesnt mean theirs was any less valid. The moment a city decided to keep an old House and other cities were forced to do away with theirs, it'd have been mayhem.

    Overall, having an excess of interesting Houses seems like a better deal than having just enough equally uninteresting ones.
    I don't subscribe to that at all. Not every house was relevant from a wider viewpoint. People's individual attachment does not correlate to the actual impact and importance an organization has/had.

    Also, iirc from people in leadership telling me their experience, no city was 'forced' to do away with all of theirs, it was 100% their choice and they just all chose the same thing. Of course, I could be wrong here, but I'd still say that was the wrong approach in the end whether it was the players or the admin deciding it.

    Another issue, of course, is that it was so spread out that some cities ended up with hindsight as an advantage but also varying degrees of limbo for a while. I doubt Targ would've picked 3 houses if they had a year to watch the other cities first, for instance.


    I'd be really surprised if leaders had a choice to keep old Houses. The whole idea was to make all Houses accept all classes to facilitate multiclass. I think the Houses had to all change at least quite a bit. You could probably model a new House off of an old one somewhat if desired, but I don't think you could just keep it.

    I wish some things didn't seem just "lost" lore-wise, though. Like, House news just vanishing. House libraries. House clans (I assume?). It'd be nice, using the Occultist example, for example, if, say, the Savants were seen as a sort of evolution of the Occultists and had access to all the background knowledge and lore to build off of. Maybe they do - I haven't been in post-renaissance Ashtan. But I assume a lot was lost in the transition.

    Same with any other cities and Houses, though, really. It'd be nice if people could access archives of the old Houses. So much history. :(

    I think it's really difficult for Houses to find their place now. I don't think it's so much the House tasks, or the guild change, but just the fact that class gave Houses an inherent identity that is hard to replace with other things.

    Yeah fair enough. My info is based on sketchy memories mostly, so I could def be wrong like I said. You're right that at least having the savants etc being 'officially' a successor would've been ideal, though.
    That said, some stuff was kept. Occy library got backed up (unfortunately one of the backups retired in a leadership position lol), for instance, but imo they should've gotten to keep a lot more than just the books in that case, at least. I agree with you that some stuff just  disappearing was a pita. However, Mhaldor also has gotten some of the stuff from the old Houses back, so I believe it's possible to do at least some kind of conservation.

    Re: houses not having identity, I believe that's 100% on the players. If your house has no events, that's because your leadership runs none. I was in several guilds back in the day and the proportion of divine-run events were tiny even back then.
    Even then, we have gotten divine run events that involved our houses, and that's something I'm infinitely grateful to Sartan for. We've had city-wide things that gave separate goals to both our houses, and both our house tutors interact with us regularly. We've also added a lot of stuff to our estates and consolidated our house identities further and, while that was pushed by Sartan, it was also largely player-run in the end.
    The problem with a lot of the new houses is often that the players just sort of gave up before they started. You need at least a few people that are passionate about the house to develop it.It's not like we didn't have these issues in Mhaldor of course, but we were lucky that we got some people that really pushed through and cared about the Legates and Insidium beyond 'lol I guess I have a different channel now.'
    Because the old guilds/houses had been there 'forever', people just kind of expected them to be X and wanted to have this history and identity handed to them. Which is, of course, what most people will always do. But the new houses are new for a reason, and you have to realize that it's up to you to make them something unique.
    I can't speak for all other houses, of course, but the Insidium has a ton of characters that are uniquely Insidium. If they tried to join the other house it'd be a wtf moment for whoever knows them. That's the goal to aspire to, in the end, to have characters whose house is an extension of their personality in some way.
    I don't mean to pick on anyone, but Torinn earlier saying for instance that if you wrote essays or did research you'd be mocked as an ex-leader of a house that should (in my understanding of the house, at least) be doing that kind of stuff is something that strikes me as odd and part of the issue. You have the power to make these things part of your house!

    I don't really disagree with any of this. I do think a lot of the issue is players not being passionate about it.

    I also think, though, that there are issues that arise where Houses are defined in ways other than class that players can't do much about now. Take the Dawnblade for example. I don't mean anything negative towards its members but it's a real struggle to give the House goals and see it as a separate entity when Targossas has an army and that army is most naturally responsible for military goals. When Houses were defined by class, new players coming in were never so limited. You could do a lot with whatever your House was.

    I think the Harbingers are probably the House we have with the most identity, and the Luminai could have one if players cared more. But if Houses don't align with things players are passionate about, there's also a lot less flexibility now than when they were defined by classes. Which is also something I like about Mhaldor's Houses, because they're designed to be a lot more flexible.
    JiraishinTorinn
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2018
    Farrah said:

    I don't really disagree with any of this. I do think a lot of the issue is players not being passionate about it.

    I also think, though, that there are issues that arise where Houses are defined in ways other than class that players can't do much about now. Take the Dawnblade for example. I don't mean anything negative towards its members but it's a real struggle to give the House goals and see it as a separate entity when Targossas has an army and that army is most naturally responsible for military goals. When Houses were defined by class, new players coming in were never so limited. You could do a lot with whatever your House was.

    I think the Harbingers are probably the House we have with the most identity, and the Luminai could have one if players cared more. But if Houses don't align with things players are passionate about, there's also a lot less flexibility now than when they were defined by classes. Which is also something I like about Mhaldor's Houses, because they're designed to be a lot more flexible.
    Yeah, I think a lot of houses kind of screwed themselves on their theme, but you don't need a class restriction to have a cohesive theme. Virtuosi, Shield (in a city where not everyone fights), the Mhaldor houses, Harbs, Scions, Savants, etc. all have strong base themes in theory to build off without needing a class list.
    This is part of what I meant by the benefit of hindsight from later rens, I doubt targ would've made the dawnblade if they'd gotten to see Cyrene's houses first, for instance, which we all agree are very strong bases, I believe.
    It can be fixed now, though, really. It's never too late to rework what a house is meant to be about, especially if it has few members/interest as is. Part of not being defined by class lists is that you can change what your house is if your playerbase really wants it.
    I agree that class lists made things easier, but I don't agree they were necessarily better.
    Cailin
  • JiraishinJiraishin skulkingMember Posts: 2,121 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Farrah said:
    Kiet said:
    Farrah said:
    Kiet said:
    Shirszae said:
    Kiet said:
    Shirszae said:
    Dunno. The House wipe had to be 100 or 0, I think. The moment someone was given the option to say no, everyone was going to say no because no one wanted to lose the House they were invested in. House ren might have been 100% necessary, but I believe it has handled 100% the wrong way too.
    The individual Houses were not the ones that decided, the cities were. Cities should've had the spine and foresight to realize that some Houses were simply much harder to replace than others, but instead we ended up with everyone trying to play 'fair.' Of course, that's easier said than done, since people are incapable of putting away their biases. Overall, though, I believe we all know the mojushai and the occultists were on entirely different tiers of 'relevant to achaean lore.'
    It still amounts to the same. It was either 100 or 0. Every House was relevant to the people in it. Just becaue it didnt met your relevancy criteria doesnt mean theirs was any less valid. The moment a city decided to keep an old House and other cities were forced to do away with theirs, it'd have been mayhem.

    Overall, having an excess of interesting Houses seems like a better deal than having just enough equally uninteresting ones.
    I don't subscribe to that at all. Not every house was relevant from a wider viewpoint. People's individual attachment does not correlate to the actual impact and importance an organization has/had.

    Also, iirc from people in leadership telling me their experience, no city was 'forced' to do away with all of theirs, it was 100% their choice and they just all chose the same thing. Of course, I could be wrong here, but I'd still say that was the wrong approach in the end whether it was the players or the admin deciding it.

    Another issue, of course, is that it was so spread out that some cities ended up with hindsight as an advantage but also varying degrees of limbo for a while. I doubt Targ would've picked 3 houses if they had a year to watch the other cities first, for instance.


    I'd be really surprised if leaders had a choice to keep old Houses. The whole idea was to make all Houses accept all classes to facilitate multiclass. I think the Houses had to all change at least quite a bit. You could probably model a new House off of an old one somewhat if desired, but I don't think you could just keep it.

    I wish some things didn't seem just "lost" lore-wise, though. Like, House news just vanishing. House libraries. House clans (I assume?). It'd be nice, using the Occultist example, for example, if, say, the Savants were seen as a sort of evolution of the Occultists and had access to all the background knowledge and lore to build off of. Maybe they do - I haven't been in post-renaissance Ashtan. But I assume a lot was lost in the transition.

    Same with any other cities and Houses, though, really. It'd be nice if people could access archives of the old Houses. So much history. :(

    I think it's really difficult for Houses to find their place now. I don't think it's so much the House tasks, or the guild change, but just the fact that class gave Houses an inherent identity that is hard to replace with other things.

    Yeah fair enough. My info is based on sketchy memories mostly, so I could def be wrong like I said. You're right that at least having the savants etc being 'officially' a successor would've been ideal, though.
    That said, some stuff was kept. Occy library got backed up (unfortunately one of the backups retired in a leadership position lol), for instance, but imo they should've gotten to keep a lot more than just the books in that case, at least. I agree with you that some stuff just  disappearing was a pita. However, Mhaldor also has gotten some of the stuff from the old Houses back, so I believe it's possible to do at least some kind of conservation.

    Re: houses not having identity, I believe that's 100% on the players. If your house has no events, that's because your leadership runs none. I was in several guilds back in the day and the proportion of divine-run events were tiny even back then.
    Even then, we have gotten divine run events that involved our houses, and that's something I'm infinitely grateful to Sartan for. We've had city-wide things that gave separate goals to both our houses, and both our house tutors interact with us regularly. We've also added a lot of stuff to our estates and consolidated our house identities further and, while that was pushed by Sartan, it was also largely player-run in the end.
    The problem with a lot of the new houses is often that the players just sort of gave up before they started. You need at least a few people that are passionate about the house to develop it.It's not like we didn't have these issues in Mhaldor of course, but we were lucky that we got some people that really pushed through and cared about the Legates and Insidium beyond 'lol I guess I have a different channel now.'
    Because the old guilds/houses had been there 'forever', people just kind of expected them to be X and wanted to have this history and identity handed to them. Which is, of course, what most people will always do. But the new houses are new for a reason, and you have to realize that it's up to you to make them something unique.
    I can't speak for all other houses, of course, but the Insidium has a ton of characters that are uniquely Insidium. If they tried to join the other house it'd be a wtf moment for whoever knows them. That's the goal to aspire to, in the end, to have characters whose house is an extension of their personality in some way.
    I don't mean to pick on anyone, but Torinn earlier saying for instance that if you wrote essays or did research you'd be mocked as an ex-leader of a house that should (in my understanding of the house, at least) be doing that kind of stuff is something that strikes me as odd and part of the issue. You have the power to make these things part of your house!

    I don't really disagree with any of this. I do think a lot of the issue is players not being passionate about it.

    ....
    I think the Harbingers are probably the House we have with the most identity, and the Luminai could have one if players cared more. But if Houses don't align with things players are passionate about, there's also a lot less flexibility now than when they were defined by classes. Which is also something I like about Mhaldor's Houses, because they're designed to be a lot more flexible.
    I swear I'm working on it, Farrah T.T
    ________________________
    The soul of Ashmond says, "Always with the sniping."
    Utianima
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Too bad you left a city that has a thriving and established house with a similar theme :^)
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 5,038 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Targossas roolz, Mhaldor droolz obv


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    FarrahUtianimaSylphie
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    meet you at the jungle gym 5 pm binch
    Utianima
  • JadysJadys ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent Member Posts: 216 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Penwize said:
    Klendathu said:
    as do the leaders of the other Ashtani houses.
    Do they, though?
    Yes, they do. 
    Utianima
  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,506 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kiet said:
    Farrah said:

    I don't really disagree with any of this. I do think a lot of the issue is players not being passionate about it.

    I also think, though, that there are issues that arise where Houses are defined in ways other than class that players can't do much about now. Take the Dawnblade for example. I don't mean anything negative towards its members but it's a real struggle to give the House goals and see it as a separate entity when Targossas has an army and that army is most naturally responsible for military goals. When Houses were defined by class, new players coming in were never so limited. You could do a lot with whatever your House was.

    I think the Harbingers are probably the House we have with the most identity, and the Luminai could have one if players cared more. But if Houses don't align with things players are passionate about, there's also a lot less flexibility now than when they were defined by classes. Which is also something I like about Mhaldor's Houses, because they're designed to be a lot more flexible.
    Yeah, I think a lot of houses kind of screwed themselves on their theme, but you don't need a class restriction to have a cohesive theme. Virtuosi, Shield (in a city where not everyone fights), the Mhaldor houses, Harbs, Scions, Savants, etc. all have strong base themes in theory to build off without needing a class list.
    This is part of what I meant by the benefit of hindsight from later rens, I doubt targ would've made the dawnblade if they'd gotten to see Cyrene's houses first, for instance, which we all agree are very strong bases, I believe.
    It can be fixed now, though, really. It's never too late to rework what a house is meant to be about, especially if it has few members/interest as is. Part of not being defined by class lists is that you can change what your house is if your playerbase really wants it.
    I agree that class lists made things easier, but I don't agree they were necessarily better.

    I don't think it's easy to fix at all, though. Part of the problem is there are simply not enough passionate people to go around, which is why I much prefer a two House structure, but I don't think just deleting a House is ideal, either, because it leaves a void. You almost have to start from scratch, which isn't really possible and not necessarily desirable either.

    I've pondered this a lot and really don't know how it could be fixed without going back in time and making different Houses from the outset. This is, like I said, partially based on practicality. The Houses could theoretically work if we had enough passionate people to go around, but we don't. And I feel like we could accomplish more if our people weren't so split up and spread thin. This is particularly true when you consider the change to leadership council (HLs don't also serve as Lumarchs), as well, which is a good change but only makes the issue of "not enough passionate leaders" more apparent.

    Jiraishin is full of optimism though and I love him for it. <3
    Utianima
  • JiraishinJiraishin skulkingMember Posts: 2,121 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kiet said:
    Too bad you left a city that has a thriving and established house with a similar theme :^)
    If only I'd known back in 2013 :P  
    Really though it was a toss-up between Mhaldor and Targ when I came back. Targ responded to my tells/messages faster. And the RP crowd is cool.
    ________________________
    The soul of Ashmond says, "Always with the sniping."
    TaryiusUtianima
  • QimailehQimaileh Member Posts: 6
    I don't really see the Houses as they currently are as lacking in identity and I certainly don't think class restriction necessarily would help. I remember when I first started playing around 2001 or so, there some singular guilds like Apostates, Priests, etc. but then there were, what, four guilds each for magi, monk and serpent?
  • JiraishinJiraishin skulkingMember Posts: 2,121 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2018
    Having specifically Serpent Houses actually made a lot of sense, though. It's a cool class, but a weird one, and tends to attract certain types of people and certain types of RP. It's also relatively hard to figure out the cool parts of it by yourself. That's separate from factional RP.
    ________________________
    The soul of Ashmond says, "Always with the sniping."
    TorinnUtianimaKrizal
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    To an extent, but then you had the issue of what about everyone else that wants to be a sneaky type, since a lot of classes allow that and a lot of sneaking is class-agnostic?
    JiraishinFarrahSherazad
  • JiraishinJiraishin skulkingMember Posts: 2,121 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kiet said:
    To an extent, but then you had the issue of what about everyone else that wants to be a sneaky type, since a lot of classes allow that and a lot of sneaking is class-agnostic?
    I think that's a reasonable question, but one that's better answered by the sort of House/clan setup the Luminai has right now. I also think that in the age of people multiclass and people getting Logosian in weeks, it would be viable that those people take Serpent as a secondary class if they want to do House membership.
    ________________________
    The soul of Ashmond says, "Always with the sniping."
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2018
    Jiraishin said:
    Kiet said:
    To an extent, but then you had the issue of what about everyone else that wants to be a sneaky type, since a lot of classes allow that and a lot of sneaking is class-agnostic?
    I think that's a reasonable question, but one that's better answered by the sort of House/clan setup the Luminai has right now. I also think that in the age of people multiclass and people getting Logosian in weeks, it would be viable that those people take Serpent as a secondary class if they want to do House membership.
    If it's better answered by the Luminai, then the other question is: how active have the Luminai been for all these years? Has switching to that setup actually improved it considerably? Why create multiple types of orgs to confuse people instead of just resigning to the idea that what might've worked when Achaea had 500 people at peak and you couldn't just have 8 classes (thus devaluing your 'main class' being a core part of your character) wouldn't really work today?

    Requiring people to drop $ to join a house centered around a class-agnostic theme is just archaic these days.
  • JiraishinJiraishin skulkingMember Posts: 2,121 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2018
    Kiet said:
    Jiraishin said:
    Kiet said:
    To an extent, but then you had the issue of what about everyone else that wants to be a sneaky type, since a lot of classes allow that and a lot of sneaking is class-agnostic?
    I think that's a reasonable question, but one that's better answered by the sort of House/clan setup the Luminai has right now. I also think that in the age of people multiclass and people getting Logosian in weeks, it would be viable that those people take Serpent as a secondary class if they want to do House membership.
    If it's better answered by the Luminai, then the other question is: how active have the Luminai been for all these years? Has switching to that setup actually improved it considerably? Why create multiple types of orgs to confuse people instead of just resigning to the idea that what might've worked when Achaea had 500 people at peak and you couldn't just have 8 classes (thus devaluing your 'main class' being a core part of your character) wouldn't really work today?

    Requiring people to drop $ to join a house centered around a class-agnostic theme is just archaic these days.
    I said the setup used for the Luminai (in the sense of having a clan attached to it for non-Luminai who want to contribute) would be good for extending membership of a Serpent House to non-Serpents. The Luminai is not a Serpent House.

    And second class doesn't require dropping dollars at the rate people get Logosian. I didn't say they had to be -proficient- Serpents. More of an RP thing.

    ________________________
    The soul of Ashmond says, "Always with the sniping."
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2018
    Jiraishin said:
    Kiet said:
    Jiraishin said:
    Kiet said:
    To an extent, but then you had the issue of what about everyone else that wants to be a sneaky type, since a lot of classes allow that and a lot of sneaking is class-agnostic?
    I think that's a reasonable question, but one that's better answered by the sort of House/clan setup the Luminai has right now. I also think that in the age of people multiclass and people getting Logosian in weeks, it would be viable that those people take Serpent as a secondary class if they want to do House membership.
    If it's better answered by the Luminai, then the other question is: how active have the Luminai been for all these years? Has switching to that setup actually improved it considerably? Why create multiple types of orgs to confuse people instead of just resigning to the idea that what might've worked when Achaea had 500 people at peak and you couldn't just have 8 classes (thus devaluing your 'main class' being a core part of your character) wouldn't really work today?

    Requiring people to drop $ to join a house centered around a class-agnostic theme is just archaic these days.
    I said the setup used for the Luminai (in the sense of having a clan attached to it for non-Luminai who want to contribute) would be good for extending membership of a Serpent House to non-Serpents. The Luminai is not a Serpent House.

    And second class doesn't require dropping dollars at the rate people get Logosian. I didn't say they had to be -proficient- Serpents. More of an RP thing.

    I know, but not a single high clan other than maybe the siren clan has had any kind of consistent, active membership. If you're spreading people out over more orgs, you're just weakening the orgs that exist. The serpent-only house is a relic of the past that just wouldn't work nowadays is my point (it barely worked even bback in the day, there was always at least 2/4 of the serpent houses that were pointless at any given time). The idea that serpent is this unique class that has an entirely different playerbase than any other class is provably false once we look at all the people who want to do serpenty things without being a serpent. Often, they can even do it better (see: synaptic lock).

    Second class requires dollars if you actually wanted to take a second class you wanted to play, since then that'd have to be a third class and hundreds of credits more.
    FarrahQimailehSherazad
  • KeorinKeorin Member Posts: 757 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited October 2018
    Dupre said:
    ironically Cyrene ended up with the strongest House distinctions, between the Shield, the artsy farts, and the...leftovers one.
    A lot of this has to do with the leadership of the houses, really. Ty Beirdd was basically a post-ren house already (they'd already wanted to include all classes, but weren't allowed), so they seem to have transitioned pretty well.
    And for the Shield, @Aerek and some of his contemporaries did a fantastic job in the early days of the house tying house lore into existing Cyrenian history to create a better sense of identity. The Shield's duel of the valley remains one of the best ceremonies I've seen regularly performed in this game.

    But really, Cyrene just got lucky in some respects. Deleting the old houses may have been necessary, but everything I've heard has suggested it was a badly implemented process, with most of the new houses being written up by a small group of people who's only qualification was being in city/house leadership at the right time (and as a house leader, I can attest that writing a new house isn't a skill that automatically comes with the job). And often, those few people had very very little time to actually make things; I've heard plenty of stories of people stuck writing 90% of a house's scrolls over the very last few days.
    But the biggest problem, I feel, is with how arbitrary things felt ICly. None of the new houses felt like they emerged from any organic roleplay. They were OOC-feeling events that in many cases, deleted real life decades of player history without making a lick of sense ICly. With the exception of Targossas, I'm not sure that any city's ren event actually gave a credible reason why the old houses had to go, which at least personally felt very frustrating as a player.
    And in addition to the house lore, player created orgs like Hashan's alchemy institute got deleted in favour of making way for the new houses, often leaving some of the game's most motivated rpers feeling bitter about how things happened. To top it all off, much of the new leadership was the same as the leadership of the old houses, so in places where stagnant leaders were part of the problem, the new houses got saddled with many of the exact same issues as the old.

    Personally, I think trimming house numbers was a necessary thing, and that a fresh start with new roleplay directions could have been a very positive thing for many orgs. But it was executed in close to the worst way possible, which has left us with a lack of identity and lore that the community is still trying to fix.
    LennAerek
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2018
    Keorin said:
    Dupre said:
    ironically Cyrene ended up with the strongest House distinctions, between the Shield, the artsy farts, and the...leftovers one.
    A lot of this has to do with the leadership of the houses, really. Ty Beirdd was basically a post-ren house already (they'd already wanted to include all classes, but weren't allowed), so they seem to have transitioned pretty well.
    And for the Shield, @Aerek and some of his contemporaries did a fantastic job in the early days of the house tying house lore into existing Cyrenian history to create a better sense of identity. The Shield's duel of the valley remains one of the best ceremonies I've seen regularly performed in this game.

    But really, Cyrene just got lucky in some respects. Deleting the old houses may have been necessary, but everything I've heard has suggested it was a badly implemented process, with most of the new houses being written up by a small group of people who's only qualification was being in city/house leadership at the right time (and as a house leader, I can attest that writing a new house isn't a skill that automatically comes with the job). And often, those few people had very very little time to actually make things; I've heard plenty of stories of people stuck writing 90% of a house's scrolls over the very last few days.
    But the biggest problem, I feel, is with how arbitrary things felt ICly. None of the new houses felt like they emerged from any organic roleplay. They were OOC-feeling events that in many cases, deleted real life decades of player history without making a lick of sense ICly. With the exception of Targossas, I'm not sure that any city's ren event actually gave a credible reason why the old houses had to go, which at least personally felt very frustrating as a player.
    And in addition to the house lore, player created orgs like Hashan's alchemy institute got deleted in favour of making way for the new houses, often leaving some of the game's most motivated rpers feeling bitter about how things happened. To top it all off, much of the new leadership was the same as the leadership of the old houses, so in places where stagnant leaders were part of the problem, the new houses got saddled with many of the exact same issues as the old.

    Personally, I think trimming house numbers was a necessary thing, and that a fresh start with new roleplay directions could have been a very positive thing for many orgs. But it was executed in close to the worst way possible, which has left us with a lack of identity and lore that the community is still trying to fix.
    Some valid points but Mhaldor's houses literally got taken over by a horrible slime monster so that's a pretty good reason imo, lol. Ashtan's thing was also fighting fucking Golgotha and the unnameable, wasn't it? That's pretty badass/a good reason to get your phoenix to blow up or wahtever it was.

    I don't remember Cyrene's very well but it was just like some rando prophecy or something, right? That was probably unsatisfying, yeah.
  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,506 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jiraishin said:
    Kiet said:
    Jiraishin said:
    Kiet said:
    To an extent, but then you had the issue of what about everyone else that wants to be a sneaky type, since a lot of classes allow that and a lot of sneaking is class-agnostic?
    I think that's a reasonable question, but one that's better answered by the sort of House/clan setup the Luminai has right now. I also think that in the age of people multiclass and people getting Logosian in weeks, it would be viable that those people take Serpent as a secondary class if they want to do House membership.
    If it's better answered by the Luminai, then the other question is: how active have the Luminai been for all these years? Has switching to that setup actually improved it considerably? Why create multiple types of orgs to confuse people instead of just resigning to the idea that what might've worked when Achaea had 500 people at peak and you couldn't just have 8 classes (thus devaluing your 'main class' being a core part of your character) wouldn't really work today?

    Requiring people to drop $ to join a house centered around a class-agnostic theme is just archaic these days.
    I said the setup used for the Luminai (in the sense of having a clan attached to it for non-Luminai who want to contribute) would be good for extending membership of a Serpent House to non-Serpents. The Luminai is not a Serpent House.

    And second class doesn't require dropping dollars at the rate people get Logosian. I didn't say they had to be -proficient- Serpents. More of an RP thing.


    I miss old Naga as much as you, but it'd be very awkward and odd to have one class-based House and otherwise class-agnostic houses. As someone who has tons of classes, I can also say that there are other classes very useful for the same general purposes. It makes more sense to group them all together.
    Sherazad
  • KeorinKeorin Member Posts: 757 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited October 2018
    Ashtan's was likely the best because of how major the overall changes to the city were at the same time, if you ask me. But even then, I don't think it really explained why all the old houses had to go, particularly the occultists

    Mhaldor was actually the city I played in at the time of their renaissance, and I didn't think it made any sense whatsoever. Like, yeah, some weird, unidentified slime thing got into the house estates, but in what world did that make completely abolishing the houses themselves make sense as a response? There was some word from Sartan about how the old houses were weak because the slime got into the estates, but the even that felt pretty arbitrary, since it wasn't as if the slime getting into things was somehow the fault of the old houses, or something that would be prevented by new ones. Not to mention, I don't think it was ever clear what the slime even -was-. It just felt like an unrelated, half-assed event pushing towards a predetermined goal.

    To be clear, that's not to detract from the work Mhaldor's put in building on the new houses post-ren, or to say that the houses aren't doing alright now. Just that the event and abolition of the old houses felt as poorly executed as the rest.

    And Cyrene's was just completely laughable. To this day, there's not really any way to justify why the old houses disappeared there, everyone just sort of has to not question it.
    AmeerSherazad
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Keorin said:
    Ashtan's was likely the best because of how major the overall changes to the city were at the same time, if you ask me. But even then, I don't think it really explained why all the old houses had to go, particularly the occultists

    Mhaldor was actually the city I played in at the time of their renaissance, and I didn't think it made any sense whatsoever. Like, yeah, some weird, unidentified slime thing got into the house estates, but in what world did that make completely abolishing the houses themselves make sense as a response? There was some word from Sartan about how the old houses were weak because the slime got into the estates, but the even that felt pretty arbitrary, since it wasn't as if the slime getting into things was somehow the fault of the old houses, or something that would be prevented by new ones. Not to mention, I don't think it was ever clear what the slime even -was-. It just felt like an unrelated, half-assed event pushing towards a predetermined goal.

    To be clear, that's not to detract from the work Mhaldor's put in building on the new houses post-ren, or to say that the houses aren't doing alright now. Just that the event and abolition of the old houses felt as poorly executed as the rest.

    And Cyrene's was just completely laughable. To this day, there's not really any way to justify why the old houses disappeared there, everyone just sort of has to not question it.
    Mhaldor doesn't need a reason in the first place. If Sartan says delete every house then Mhaldor will do it with no question. The slime monster was a good a reason as any to reorganize, from an IC perspective, and Sartan dictated how we reorganized. It makes perfect sense to me, but I agree Ashtan's is probably the best event.
  • KeorinKeorin Member Posts: 757 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited October 2018
    Well yeah, if Sartan says jump, Mhaldor's gunna jump, it's not like they would have even needed an event to make it happen. But that doesn't mean that the reasoning didn't feel rather arbitrary and unwarranted, especially given how much old identity and lore was being tossed out the window.

    Ideally, the renaissance events would have given people with time and identity invested in the old orgs a reason to, at the very least, not be bitter about their removal, and hopefully be excited for what came next. And by that metric, I don't think Mhaldor's was done well. "Sartan decided that a weird goo monster meant that the old houses had to go away," may have gotten the job done by mandating things happen ICly, but it's not exactly the most compelling piece of lore as a player.

    I'm not speaking hypothetically here, either. That was all a big factor in why I ended up leaving that character behind, the whole thing just felt unsatisfying, and made losing something I felt invested in feel all the more disappointing.
    Krizal
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2018
    I dunno, as someone that used to love the Naga and Congregation and respected Maldaathi a lot, it didn't bother me. I'd say people just get too attached to certain things in Achaea that shouldn't, ICly, be their priority. If Sartan said destroy the naga house, every naga should've been like yes master, but instead we got a very different reaction out of the four houses being destroyed equally.

    Like, yeah, I get you're invested. I was invested in the shadowsnakes once upon a time, too, and we all form emotional bonds with organizations/etc.. But at the core of your Mhaldorian character should be (at least, outwardly) the focus on Evil over all else. Instead we got a bunch of people who essentially threw a tantrum over their specific part of evil that they became attached to, whether house or apples/shaitan/keresis. Very tangential here, tho.

    OOCly, the event was fine. There was a big catastrophe, and instead of rebuilding we just made new things because S said so. ICly, it'd likely have been about as much effort to rebuild everything as it was to just start over. It's a perfectly common stance IRL to look at the outcome of a disaster and decide to take it as a new opportunity. Is it like whoa amazing event I'll never forget it and it's bal'met tier? Probably not, but I'm not sure what, OOCly, was so bad about it. It makes perfect IC sense and change isn't bad just because it's change.
    Sherazad
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,796 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kiet said:
    I dunno, as someone that used to love Slytherin and Ravenclaw and respected Gryffindor a lot, it didn't bother me.
    FTFY, bb.

    KyrraTaryiusSherazad
  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 1,855 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Iirc the Occultist's house had to go (speaking specifically from how the event panned out) because that's the first place Golgotha targeted when he decided to try and fuck with Ashtan. It's where someone important was, that worked against Golgotha's wishes.
    Each house had to sacrifice something. The Warlocks woke the Phoenix, and lured it to the Chaos Plane with the Eschaton, to assist with taking care of Golgotha. It died in the process. It's been a while so I don't entirely remember the Ashura's or Shadowsnakes' role.

  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Right, but that was based on the leaders' decisions at the time to some extent. If they had decided that savants would be based around the eschaton beforehand I doubt the admin would've made them sacrifice it.
  • AchillesAchilles Los AngelesMember Posts: 2,538 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Wait houses exist for reasons beyond credit sales?  


    The Dawnblade (and their similar counter parts in each city) should be the most responsible for building the fundamentals needed to join the army.  That they don't is more of a failing of the system (relying on players teaching new players for little to no reward with terrible retention numbers).  Maybe some kind of lesson bonus for new house players after x time played (ie 100 hours) in a house, which can help retain players (and keep their mentors optimistic) can really help build more bonds and foster a sense of community.
    image
    Utianima
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