Refugees of Shallam, how are you coping?

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  • Lenneth said:
    I think it will be fine when we have a new city. It's just the waiting for being able to use my skills normally is frustrating. Thankfully, I'm busy with RL. I I would like  to switch to priest but I haven't earned credits for a class change yet and there might not be enough alchemists in the Fugees to supply the new city. 
    That's true - they're more bards, better-suited to killing you softly with their song...
  • edited January 2013
    Chryenth said:
    Could you not just RP without Divine backing? Scout around potential locations, seek out resources? You don't need a definite plan, really - just stockpile resources and make ready for when the Divine Light points you to your promised land? 
    Hmm if I have learnt anything in Mudding life, it is that any form of RP character-created adventures or ideas can easily be turned into truth. A Divine can at any time look upon the concept these group of adventurers have committed time to and decide that they enjoy the idea and suddenly lend their assistance to enhance the experience. There are so many examples of this in Achaea, take for example the Deforestation Group of Mhaldor, or perhaps even the Cult of Babel of past.

    Edit: Just recalled Pirates of Meropis too.
  • Asmodron said:
    Chryenth said:
    Could you not just RP without Divine backing? Scout around potential locations, seek out resources? You don't need a definite plan, really - just stockpile resources and make ready for when the Divine Light points you to your promised land? 
    Hmm if I have learnt anything in Mudding life, it is that any form of RP character-created adventures or ideas can easily be turned into truth. A Divine can at any time look upon the concept these group of adventurers have committed time to and decide that they enjoy the idea and suddenly lend their assistance to enhance the experience. There are so many examples of this in Achaea, take for example the Deforestation Group of Mhaldor, or perhaps even the Cult of Babel of past.

    Edit: Just recalled Pirates of Meropis too.
    Have done so several times... Also done complete surveys and submitted them. At this point the next step is being given a sign where. Theocracy has to have divine direction.
    (Blades of Valour): He just has that Synbios Swagger enough said.
    (Blades of Valour): Draekar says: "Synbios if sunbeams sparkle off that I'll kill you where you stand."

    (Party) Halos says, "Disbar?"
    (Party) Draekar says, "You know here we have disbar."
    (Party) Draekar says, "And over there we have datbar."
  • Asmodron said:
    take for example the Deforestation Group of Mhaldor
    Yes, I think we would all do well to learn from their particular example.
  • Lenneth said:
    Tesha said:
    I disagree that people can join Cyrene while staying in the refugee clan. This is a process and if they are not willing to go through the difficult part, why should they get to suddenly come back for the awesome part? It would upset me if people flopped back and forth with no loss or anything, but I do not think our leadership would let people who fled to Cyrene come back without some difficulty.
    I agree with what Tesha posted. My friend bugs me into going Cyrenian so I can have a lab and stuff to which I declined. While it can be very challenging to stay around with the Refugees without a city and many abilities for some classes, it's part of the filtering process the group has to undergo to see who would be committed enough to go with its new direction. 
    There are refugees who became Cyrenian and stayed in the clan, also joining a Cyrenian house while staying in an ex-house clan. Just a couple I know, but there are.
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  • VayneVayne Rhode Island
    Thaumas said:
    Lenneth said:
    Tesha said:
    I disagree that people can join Cyrene while staying in the refugee clan. This is a process and if they are not willing to go through the difficult part, why should they get to suddenly come back for the awesome part? It would upset me if people flopped back and forth with no loss or anything, but I do not think our leadership would let people who fled to Cyrene come back without some difficulty.
    I agree with what Tesha posted. My friend bugs me into going Cyrenian so I can have a lab and stuff to which I declined. While it can be very challenging to stay around with the Refugees without a city and many abilities for some classes, it's part of the filtering process the group has to undergo to see who would be committed enough to go with its new direction. 
    There are refugees who became Cyrenian and stayed in the clan, also joining a Cyrenian house while staying in an ex-house clan. Just a couple I know, but there are.
    That's a bit lame, but one would assume that membership in the refugees does not guarantee citizenship in the forthcoming city either, and the house clans are largely irrelevant since new houses will be established. 
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  • AktillumAktillum Philippines
    I left the Dawnies and joined the CiJ like a day before Shallam blew up. Talk about premonitions.

  • edited January 2013
    I really hope some deep, well-roleplayed Eleusis v. Good/Light conflict is in store over the building of the new city.  With the departure of Lupus as a forestal god (as @Awan was saying in the thread about orders) and the destruction of Melantha (who was always more or less the softer, kinder forestal goddess and had far too much Chaos/Change-lite stuff intruding on Ourania and Babel's turf), there's a lot of room for Artemis and the Anachaine to steer the future direction of Nature and reinvigorate that faction.  I've always wanted them to be a more anti-civilization/construction/Phaestus faction anyway.  The status quo, with a philosophy focused on protection, lends itself to defense against exterminations and retaliation against Mhaldor moreso than it does any Nature-driven offense.  
  • underutilized unless Rangor is on :(
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  • Talonia said:
    I really hope some deep, well-roleplayed Eleusis v. Good/Light conflict is in store over the building of the new city.  With the departure of Lupus as a forestal god (as @Awan was saying in the thread about orders) and the destruction of Melantha (who was always more or less the softer, kinder forestal goddess and had far too much Chaos/Change-lite stuff intruding on Ourania and Babel's turf), there's a lot of room for Artemis and the Anachaine to steer the future direction of Nature and reinvigorate that faction.  I've always wanted them to be a more anti-civilization/construction/Phaestus faction anyway.  The status quo, with a philosophy focused on protection, lends itself to defense against exterminations and retaliation against Mhaldor moreso than it does any Nature-driven offense.  
    That's nice, dear.

    Snark aside, though, I imagine the distance between Eleusis and the new city will be much the same as it was between Eleusis and Shallam. Shallam has three enemies already, including Ashtan; the likelihood of us rattling Eleusian cages more than necessary is slim.

    Unless, of course, Eleusis chooses to disagree with us when we say we need to chop down a forest or two to build the city.

  • Silas said:
    Unless, of course, Eleusis chooses to disagree with us when we say we need to chop down a forest or two to build the city.
    You mean a jungle right? No forests on Zanzibaar.

    The other option is clearing all the orcs out of Dun Fortress and making that your new digs...
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  • Silas said:
    Unless, of course, Eleusis chooses to disagree with us when we say we need to chop down a forest or two to build the city.
    You mean a jungle right? No forests on Zanzibaar.

    The other option is clearing all the orcs out of Dun Fortress and making that your new digs...
    Been saying that for weeks. Recycle, Reuse, Save materials.


  • Silas said:
    Talonia said:
    I really hope some deep, well-roleplayed Eleusis v. Good/Light conflict is in store over the building of the new city.  With the departure of Lupus as a forestal god (as @Awan was saying in the thread about orders) and the destruction of Melantha (who was always more or less the softer, kinder forestal goddess and had far too much Chaos/Change-lite stuff intruding on Ourania and Babel's turf), there's a lot of room for Artemis and the Anachaine to steer the future direction of Nature and reinvigorate that faction.  I've always wanted them to be a more anti-civilization/construction/Phaestus faction anyway.  The status quo, with a philosophy focused on protection, lends itself to defense against exterminations and retaliation against Mhaldor moreso than it does any Nature-driven offense.  
    That's nice, dear.

    Snark aside, though, I imagine the distance between Eleusis and the new city will be much the same as it was between Eleusis and Shallam. Shallam has three enemies already, including Ashtan; the likelihood of us rattling Eleusian cages more than necessary is slim.

    Unless, of course, Eleusis chooses to disagree with us when we say we need to chop down a forest or two to build the city.
    To be fair, there are certain cities that have persisted with more than three enemies. It would also be sort of nice to really see the factions stick to their guns even if it means making more enemies than might be wise. Uncompromising dedication and all that.
  • Talonia said:
    I really hope some deep, well-roleplayed Eleusis v. Good/Light conflict is in store over the building of the new city.  With the departure of Lupus as a forestal god (as @Awan was saying in the thread about orders) and the destruction of Melantha (who was always more or less the softer, kinder forestal goddess and had far too much Chaos/Change-lite stuff intruding on Ourania and Babel's turf), there's a lot of room for Artemis and the Anachaine to steer the future direction of Nature and reinvigorate that faction.  I've always wanted them to be a more anti-civilization/construction/Phaestus faction anyway.  The status quo, with a philosophy focused on protection, lends itself to defense against exterminations and retaliation against Mhaldor moreso than it does any Nature-driven offense.  
    just make Eleusis Circle Ourboros. Problem solved

  • Silas said:
    Talonia said:
    I really hope some deep, well-roleplayed Eleusis v. Good/Light conflict is in store over the building of the new city.  With the departure of Lupus as a forestal god (as @Awan was saying in the thread about orders) and the destruction of Melantha (who was always more or less the softer, kinder forestal goddess and had far too much Chaos/Change-lite stuff intruding on Ourania and Babel's turf), there's a lot of room for Artemis and the Anachaine to steer the future direction of Nature and reinvigorate that faction.  I've always wanted them to be a more anti-civilization/construction/Phaestus faction anyway.  The status quo, with a philosophy focused on protection, lends itself to defense against exterminations and retaliation against Mhaldor moreso than it does any Nature-driven offense.  
    That's nice, dear.

    Snark aside, though, I imagine the distance between Eleusis and the new city will be much the same as it was between Eleusis and Shallam. Shallam has three enemies already, including Ashtan; the likelihood of us rattling Eleusian cages more than necessary is slim.

    Unless, of course, Eleusis chooses to disagree with us when we say we need to chop down a forest or two to build the city.

    I don't think it's helpful though to be snarky about the idea of a Shallam-Eleusis conflict, which would be totally awesome.  I think the snark should be directed at the idea that only Shallam should have good conflict with Eleusis.  I think the ideal is for every city to embody its own factional axis, maybe with temporary shifting coalitions depending on circumstances.  Shallam v Mhahashtanoosis would suck more than Shallam v Mhahashtan would for sure, but it's a necessary part of achieving the holy grail of Shallam vs Mhaldor vs Eleusis vs Hashan vs Ashtan vs Cyrene.  Ideally, Cyrene would even participate in some way other than just periodically being cata-fodder for a CTF but that's trickier to achieve.  Worth aiming for though - it would probably depend on each of the other five cities pushing an aggressive foreign policy, and Cyrene defending its independence.

    I also think that a more diverse set of factional conflicts is more likely to lead to a more diverse type of conflict which would be good.  Politics, if done well, should be war by other means and not enough people play with this element of Achaea.  Diversifying conflict into something more than raiding would also help because I think a large part of the reason that cities like Cyrene and Hashan don't participate as much as they might is that they are completely outgunned from a military perspective even though they might well be able to compete on other levels.

  • edited January 2013
    The fact is Shallam has far more important opponents to deal with than Eleusis, whose citizens seem to be able to exercise compassion, etc. Even if it turns into a 'We must tear down the cities' dealie, Shallam is still going to be like 'Omg, f off, we have work to do'.

    In my opinion, at least.

    Just read more than the first sentence of the above post. Unfortunately most politics fall apart when you have the power to just crush whichever faction is dissenting, so a strong military is always going to be required unless you want the conflict to be one side being smashed to a pulp but refusing to 'lose'.
  • edited January 2013
    Actually, never mind. :)
    I won a competition awhile ago to have Chris Bourassa paint a picture of Lodi. My profile pic is the end product. :)
  • The snark was directed solely at "I would like city x that I'm not a part of to represent ideal y that I think would be cool." I absolutely agree that we should be aiming for Ashtan vs. Cyrene vs. Eleusis vs. Hashan vs. Mhaldor vs. New Shallam, and the idea of chopping down trees to build the new city is one that found a fair amount of favour with the refugees.

    New Shallam won't necessarily be looking to create conflict with Eleusis, but I'd be very disappointed if people went to any lengths to stop it happening if it arose. See also: Cyrene. The more aggressive stance on Good world policy being taken so far by Deucora is really good to see, and has been needed in the Good faction for a long time.

  • Shallam vs. Eleusis conflict over a new city location would be great if they'd bloody fix the nature conflict mechanic first.

    Barring that, either key Shallamese people would get Oakstone enemied (which isn't really fair because it's something they didn't actually have the freedom to decide about, and they'd have no way to lash out at nature in return because no one in Shallam can exterminate and holocaust doesn't harm nature anymore), or else they wouldn't which in the current set-up would amount to treating permanent destruction of a forest as a less real form of harming nature than temporary necromantic destruction of the forest.

    OMG why have they not fixed nature conflict already. :(

    I like the idea of promoting more Shallam-Eleusis conflict, but I hope they prioritize fixing stupid, frustratingly imbalanced nature-conflict mechanics (which they said they were working on, like, a year ago) first, before purposely introducing more reasons for nature-oriented conflict, so we could start fresh on a new avenue of nature conflict without the baggage and crappy aspects (for both sides) of the old system.
  • edited January 2013
    @Silas, I disagree with the basic sentiment behind the first sentence in your last post, which is that individuals who are not members in orgs have no stake in what goes on inside them.  Consider this - when your faction is screwed up, my playing experience also suffers, because for better or worse your faction represents the primary enemy to mine (well, more so Deucalion really, since it seems like Aurora is gearing up against Darkness/Evil, but the general point stands).  I have a strong personal interest (in the sense that it would benefit me, not that I find it interesting) in New Shallam having high roleplay standards, a well-developed philosophy accompanied by robust, interesting, player-written texts and interpretations, minimal anti-fraternization laws, and so on.  Moreover, it benefits me as a player, not a character, which means I think it's fine for discussion in a forum where players post.

    I liked your post because I'm glad you support breaking up Good and Eleusis in theory, even if you take issue with my voice chiming in to support that outcome.

        
  • Another thing about a Shallam/Eleusis conflict:

    Forestals have tended to play a purely reactive role in events involving nature conflict with other organizations. Our role is either to react after the fact to a destruction of nature, or to ineffectually attempt to prevent it, knowing it's already been decided that it's going through. These kinds of events, large or small, have happened a gazillion times: something's going to be put in, and it's thought interesting to put it in a place where some part of the forest will then be deleted so forestals have something to be mad about. Conflict! (Not very compelling conflict for the players, but whatever.)

    So, it might be that all anyone is hoping for is to make sure Eleusis has some vague excuse to raid Shallam, or generally for unfriendly relations between the two. If that's all we want, then I guess slapping something on top of the forest so we get to be mad about it would serve that purpose. But the dynamic has been repeated enough times, on the forestal side, to seem a bit obnoxious, honestly.

    If there's gonna be a conflict over Shallam's location vis-a-vis nature, it'd be nice if the conflict had a point--if there was actually a fight to determine Shallam's location--rather than the situation where Shallam gets built over what was once a forest and forestals get the privilege of being futilely mad about it. We've done that shtick before, okay? Like, quite a few times actually! But a conflict that offered forestals some genuine chance to get their aim could be really exciting and would have a much more significant long-term effect on relations, whichever side won.
  • Talonia said:
    @Silas, I disagree with the basic sentiment behind the first sentence in your last post, which is that individuals who are not members in orgs have no stake in what goes on inside them.  Consider this - when your faction is screwed up, my playing experience also suffers, because for better or worse your faction represents the primary enemy to mine (well, more so Deucalion really, since it seems like Aurora is gearing up against Darkness/Evil, but the general point stands).  I have a strong personal interest (in the sense that it would benefit me, not that I find it interesting) in New Shallam having high roleplay standards, a well-developed philosophy accompanied by robust, interesting, player-written texts and interpretations, minimal anti-fraternization laws, and so on.  Moreover, it benefits me as a player, not a character, which means I think it's fine for discussion in a forum where players post.

    I liked your post because I'm glad you support breaking up Good and Eleusis in theory, even if you take issue with my voice chiming in to support that outcome.
    It's not that I take issue with you chiming in to support that outcome, it's the entitled voice in which you present your support. The first paragraph of your reply is the same. Yes, I know that New Shallam affects more than just players of New Shallam, but paramount importance should be placed on the needs and ideas of the people who will be playing within it.

    Would it be nice for there to be increased conflict between New Shallam and Eleusis? Of course. Would I want this to be the primary aim because somebody who has no stake in it thinks it would be cool? Absolutely not.

    I always thought that Mhaldor and Ashtan should've never allied, because it didn't make any sense whatsoever historically, and because such powerful alliances are bad for the game. Did I think that me expressing my dissatisfaction meant that somebody should take action? Of course not. And that's how I hope the Garden looks at this thread. In truth, given the start made by Deucora already, I am also completely fine with them ignoring my own suggestions, because I'm confident that whatever they choose to do will best benefit New Shallam.

  • Um, maybe I just don't get it, but why do they need to fight? Can't they just be like loggers and plant two new trees for every one they cut down? Or is Neo-Shallam too (insert word/'s here that I can't think of right now) to do that sort of "good-deed" kind of thing?
  • Where's the fun in that?
  • We could probably build them a tree-village with a couple shops, if they swear to uphold the principles of Oakstone. :)
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