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  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 4,708 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I will agree with them being slower and that the kill conditions are more telegraphed. That said, though, the telegraph doesn't help any since there isn't a realistic curing option at any point versus either of the classes, imo.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • CaliraCalira Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 504 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Atalkez said:
    I will agree with them being slower and that the kill conditions are more telegraphed. That said, though, the telegraph doesn't help any since there isn't a realistic curing option at any point versus either of the classes, imo.
    I might have to re-assess Occultist since tentacles started applying to fly, but Alchemist has a route to safety. Spam FLY to burn down affs and then chance homunc once or twice when you have none, then repeat as necessary. In my experience they can build tempers through fly spam, but they can't really kill you with just tempers.
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 2,882 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 23
    Armali said:
    Don't twist my words to push an agenda. I got beaten because I wasn't careful and likely would've been beaten again if I was less careful, Likewise, the serpent I was fighting had no excuse for dying, because my setups were 100% escapable.
    ? You said you slow prepped serpents when people said it wasn't possible, I agreed. Weird reaction. I don't really have an agenda since you can't fix prep vs momentum very easily and I don't really care that much about 1v1 anymore. Plus, I also have 3 prep classes now lol.

    I'd agree with people above that occultist is the strongest vs slow prep because of mobile chase, and tentacles lasts, what, 2 minutes? vs pinshot's relatively low duration. Occultist seems to deal with shield better once you have some affs, too, and they don't have to worry about rebounding. The idea that you can't really easily slow prep serpent is weird to me, though. Fitness-only users are the only ones that might struggle here, and that's just infernal + monk (and sent, I guess). Monk can stop serpent offense in its tracks whenever it wants without even leaving the room.
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,025 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's ok if prep is greater than momentum in 1v1, because the real game is 2v2 and momentum is king of the world there.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    KietAtalkezFarrahValaria
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 2,882 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I dunno man some limb comps are really strong. I'd generally take momentum in small group fights tho ya.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 4,708 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Disagree entirely that serpent is easy to slow prep, or that monk can “stop it in its tracks”. 


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • CaliraCalira Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 504 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited April 24
    Occultist has a really relevant weakness here that other momentum classes don't really share. The exact point where it starts to become deadly is when Cadmus Curse is applied, and that's accompanied by a dip in momentum. Any sufficient burst hinder or burst cure at this point will totally reset their momentum, as hitting 0 affs will cure the Cadmus Curse. The Tentas buff removed the perfect answer to Cadmus that every class had access to before, but there's still a lot of class-specific answers. Hangedman and Fool, fast breaks and prone (TekMonk, DWB), Dragonheal, Evade or Phoenix, Wunjo/Nairat or noose traps, Vodun Bind or Tarnel, Blackwind, that sort of thing. The Occ can throw a curveball with Unnamable, but the counterplay to Unnamable is similar, and you can't really threaten Unnamable and Cadmus Curse at the same time without a lot of momentum already built up.
  • ReysonReyson Member Posts: 510 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    You can't hangedman twice in a row, so I'm not sure I buy that one. Prone, if you're sitting on a leg break just for defensive purposes, sure, I suppose, but that seems like it might require some good luck, timing-wise. dragonheal will definitely not outpace occie affliction rate; evade is definitely good, but unless the occultist is hamstrung/pinshotted, can just mountjump to follow; nairat definitely won't save you since it's so quick to writhe from, blackwind is slower now (and Infernal has no passive cure, so it's a brutal matchup to begin with), and I'm not sure how much you can spam vodun bind, but if the writhe time is just ropes, that's not really a huge breather, unless the shaman really really knows the occultist's balance and is able to match up with it well (I dunno how slow bind is, vs. the writhe time, vs. occie's offence bals, but I can't imagine the balance is faster than writhing takes). 

    In the end, of course you -can- survive anything, mostly by not fighting it, but why is that ever a desirable state of affairs? 
  • AccipiterAccipiter Member Posts: 346 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    So are we going to move into a new phase of 'slow momentum' where momentum classes phase/blackwind/astral when the slow preppers run away and wait for the damage to drop off?
    ReysonValaria
  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 792 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited April 24
    Reyson said:
     I'm not sure how much you can spam vodun bind, but if the writhe time is just ropes, that's not really a huge breather, unless the shaman really really knows the occultist's balance and is able to match up with it well
    Ask @Ashmond about when he was Occultist, sparring me as Shaman. Insta vodun bind the second he cadmus's, fucks the occie over hard. Bind is ~1.8s with nimble, writhe is like 2x as long almost. If feeling exceptionally scummy, can projection over icewall on bal immediately after bind, before they writhe. With Tarnel changes coming, that's only gonna get worse for the occie.

  • CaliraCalira Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 504 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited April 24
    Reyson said:
    You can't hangedman twice in a row, so I'm not sure I buy that one.
    That's true, but a well-timed hangedman can get you 2 cures in, which is enough with tree to burst down to 0 after the fastest possible Cadmus. And if not, Fool will easily close the rest of the gap. The point is that Cadmus comes with a natural dip in pressure, which makes it a convenient moment to go on the defensive and, ideally, clear the aff away. Dragonheal does this really well, as @Armali has proven every time we spar. Blackwind/Aform/Mistral are even worse, since the Occ has no way to kill you post-Cadmus in 2.5s and not even a good way to prone you given that short notice, those abilities are a free disengage. You could even start the blackwind on Madness/Hecate and be fine. Bind is exceptionally fast and has no CD, making it somewhat spammable, and Shaman can actually get fashions fast enough for it to be relevant.
  • KeorinKeorin Member Posts: 545 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited July 9
    I'm all for more shikudo nerfs, but rain not having a reliable parry bypass seems pretty rough. Against a random arm parry (which was already the most common parry strategy against stick monk), you'll have to roll the dice against a 50% chance of hitting parry, combined with a now more effective clumsiness from most opponents. With parry and clumsiness, it'll be something like a 77% chance of a given combo missing one of its two hits, and a 22% chance of missing both, if my math holds up.

    If the goal was to tweak the affliction rate, I feel like there are better ways to do that then to make the rng way worse, if for no other reason then combat being a lot less fun when it feels like gambling. And heck, I think the kata count decay that was supposed to be getting implemented would've been a solid hit to the dumber things you can do with rain already, I don't really see why this was needed.
  • ProficyProficy Member Posts: 266 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    @Keorin
    That stick monk change was badly needed, it basically made every hit they did bypass parry while still doing arm damage.
    I think you all are forgetting about your kai ability to stop mounting. They should of never been able to dismount&prone in a single hit to begin with.
    This hasn't changed anything except let the target have some sort of chance now trying to parry.
  • KeorinKeorin Member Posts: 545 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    While I can agree that the prone every hit was a little silly in concept, having a reliable parry bypass is important for any class that needs to be maintaining affliction momentum.

    And it's a pretty huge change overall. Since rain can't use paralysis in combos, frontkick was doing double duty both offering a parry bypass and mitigating the effects of clumsiness.  Prior to this change, you were looking at something like an 18% chance of missing one of your affliction hits do to clumsiness if your frontkick missed their parry, or a 56% chance of missing one if your frontkick got parried. Since most people do a random army parry against shikudo, meaning hitting it was a coinflip, you were looking at a little over a third of your combos having one of your affliction hits parried.

    Assuming all my math is right there, that made rain's odds of missing with clumsiness and parry pretty equitable to dual cutting (which has a one-third chance of missing at least a single hit, since hitting with curare first helps the second hit avoid clumsiness). With this change, shikudo instead has a 56% chance of missing at least one affliction hit in a combo just from clumsiness, and -then- you add in the 50% chance of hitting someone's arm parry. Getting hit twice moves rain's chances of missing at least one hit from 37% before the changes, to 77% after the changes (50% chance of losing one to parry, 56% chance of losing one to clumsiness if you didn't), which is a massive shift made all the worse by rain's limited affliction pool.

    As for kai surge, it was actually the first thing I thought of, but it's actually a pretty poor bandage for this situation for several reasons: It's expensive for what it does, requiring almost half a kai pool to be used for a fifteen second duration. The best place to use it would be after leaving oak and before moving back into rain, which means you're basically losing a full combo on surge at a spot that already served as a dip in Shikudo momentum (since gaital loses paralysis/asthma/slickness and has no way to mitigate clumsiness). And finally, since shikudo has no room hinder, any opponent that can afford to run for a few seconds can just freely step out of the room, wasting your kai and forcing you to deal with the full rng again.

    Parry already mattered against shikudo. It forces longer prep since we have to hyperfocus head, and a random arm parry against rain slows down prep and makes clumsiness more effective. This change just hugely magnifies the rng effects of both, which is the most annoying way to slow down the class. Whatever exact problem this was supposed to be fixing (can't really tell, since there was no actual classlead for this thing), it seems like there's a good handful of fixes that wouldn't have just been "more rng."
  • ProficyProficy Member Posts: 266 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    If your going for a set kill path.... automating..... your offense then it can be a problem, if your dynamic and adjust your attacks i.e change from your install path to a lock path or to even go a damage route, then it shouldn't be an issue.

    I'm no stick monk expert by any means, but every other class has to be flexible in this manner.... time will tell
  • KeorinKeorin Member Posts: 545 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    It's not an issue specific to one strategy, is the trouble. All shikudo paths need affliction pressure, and this is a heavy nerf to the pressure you can output in one of your core forms for every strategy.

    In shikudo, different afflictions are tied to abilities that can only target certain limbs, unlike other classes. If there's only a 50% chance of hitting the arms due to a random arm parry, then there's a 50% chance of losing hits whenever the monk wants to use half of rain's small affliction pool. Being dynamic can't fix that.


  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 1,959 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I don't think it's as big of an issue as you think, though I'm not sure why we went with a solution that only helps people with swiftmount. Seems odd.
    Dunn
  • DunnDunn The great Buffalo tundraMember, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,977 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 9
    I’m also confused about it for the swiftmount thing. I guess it makes it more like SWK?

    I gotta test it later to see how it feels tho. 


  • KeorinKeorin Member Posts: 545 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I guess I'm just not sure how rain having a 50% miss chance for clumsiness won't be a big deal, given how powerful clumsiness is in affliction fights presently. But I'd certainly love to be wrong.

    I wish I knew what the actual rationale was though. There was no classlead to go along with the change, so I can only guess as to the goal.
  • ReysonReyson Member Posts: 510 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited July 10
    Clumsiness was toned down quite a lot, recently. When I tested the DWC change, the miss rate hovered at around 12% vs. an 11-dex, trans avo, unmounted target, in 250 attacks (125 DSLs).

    That was the worst offender, if I remember correctly, and Apostate also got a change to make it less obnoxious for them. No class should really be getting stopped dead in its tracks anymore, I don't think.  

    ETA: Anecdotally, I would say the rate used to be much higher, almost one in three vs. trans avo, unmounted targets with average dex. I could be off, of course, never sat down to test it very meticulously. Certainly felt super horrible. 
  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 792 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Reyson said:
    Clumsiness was toned down quite a lot, recently. When I tested the DWC change, the miss rate hovered at around 12% vs. an 11-dex, trans avo, unmounted target, in 250 attacks (125 DSLs).

    Clumsiness never procs when you care about it proccing, and will proc 95% of the time when you don't want it to.

    Fact.

    ValariaShirszaeTorinn
  • KeorinKeorin Member Posts: 545 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Hrm, how does clumsiness actually work now, then? Is it just an accuracy penalty added on to existing miss chance, or what? Sounds like the numbers I thought were right were pretty off then, at least.
  • ArmaliArmali Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 1,043 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Depends on the class. Static miss chance for some, penalty to to-hit to others.
  • KyrraKyrra Sanctum of the SkyMember Posts: 4,679 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    What was the classleads with tattoos all about? I don't understand that one at all.
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

  • ReysonReyson Member Posts: 510 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Afaik tattoo slots now show up on AB and match certain tattoos, lessons-wise.
    Kyrra
  • ProficyProficy Member Posts: 266 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Farrah said:
    I don't think it's as big of an issue as you think, though I'm not sure why we went with a solution that only helps people with swiftmount. Seems odd.
    It helps everyone who can mount, just means they have to sacrifice an extra second or so to stay defensive against being prone, exact same concept as swk as Dunn said... except stick monk still does limb damage with the hit and is not completely wasting a strike.

    Keorin said:
    It's not an issue specific to one strategy, is the trouble. All shikudo paths need affliction pressure, and this is a heavy nerf to the pressure you can output in one of your core forms for every strategy.

    In shikudo, different afflictions are tied to abilities that can only target certain limbs, unlike other classes. If there's only a 50% chance of hitting the arms due to a random arm parry, then there's a 50% chance of losing hits whenever the monk wants to use half of rain's small affliction pool. Being dynamic can't fix that.


    Kind of the same issue with ANY class that can be parried against, except with others they can only target a single limb all together meaning they didn't waste 50% of there attack, but 100% of it..... it's not bad, it just makes you have to pay attention more.
  • KeorinKeorin Member Posts: 545 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    That's not how shikudo works. If you want to afflict with half of your afflictions when you're in rain, including clumsiness, you -have- to target an arm. Other classes can target any limb or no limb at all, and also all have additional ways of bypassing parry altogether.

    As for why swiftmount makes such a difference, without it you only have to worry about the extra parry chance for one hit before they're dismounted and can't remount, giving you your parry bypass again. Against people with swiftmount, you lose the parry bypass entirely. It's a pretty huge difference between artied and unartied.
  • ProficyProficy Member Posts: 266 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    You still have the other arm to hit.

    Not seeing the difference... if they are parrying an arm then they are not parrying other limbs and those still hit in preparation for your slow prep. 
    If your going for a locking path. Then hit the other arm to give the affliction..... or use kai surge and then go for it.
    I'll stop throwing little ideas out for you, as I said I'm no stick monk expert, but I imagine in rain you can bypass parry all together to set up your limb prep, and if not you can still afflict with what you need by not hitting that parried limb to try and lock.

    When they start making your weapon actually respect "weapons" aura.... then you can complain about restraints.
  • ZheoZheo Member Posts: 58 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Sorry for my noobness but I thought there was a shikudo ability to make your attacks apply no limb damage. Does this not affect parry too?
  • RonweRonwe Member, Administrator, Moderator Posts: 64 Immortal
    Kyrra said:
    What was the classleads with tattoos all about? I don't understand that one at all.
    You get extra slots as your skill in tattoos increases. Essentially, the benefits of superscribe got spread out a little bit through the skill instead of suddenly giving you twice as many slots at trans. This has been the case for at least a few years, but the only way to know about it was to look at HELP TATTOOS, which was especially weird after the back slot(s) were added because they do show up as an actual ability in a skill. So now the other extra slots are represented by abilities in tattoos, like they probably always should have been.
    KyrraTruax
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