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  • Autobotting against Alrena as a class that shuts Apo down will do nothing to elucidate you to the intricacies of the class. That you believe it is straightforward highlights exactly why you should not be theorizing about apostate in the first place. People have this tendancy to soapbox about classes they never play (I do sometimes too) and it really needs to stop
  • edited April 2018
    Aegoth said:
    Autobotting against Alrena as a class that shuts Apo down will do nothing to elucidate you to the intricacies of the class. That you believe it is straightforward highlights exactly why you should not be theorizing about apostate in the first place. People have this tendancy to soapbox about classes they never play (I do sometimes too) and it really needs to stop
    If the only thing I can do to free myself from this silly criticism is to play a factional class that I don't have access to, then kindly take a step back and reconsider your problem with what I've said. Address my words, as @Alrena has, don't hold me to impossible standards as a player.
  • You don't have to play the class to understand how it works, what it's going for, how to defend against it, and where it struggles.




    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • edited April 2018
    Last I checked, Hashan can still go infernal/apo as long as you don't toe the (admittedly really thin) line. Have at it! If asking you to play a class to actually understand it is an "impossible standard" then idk what to say. Right now it's like me claiming to know the ins and outs of BM without having touched the class. Sure, you can have a mediocre, superficial understanding of the class, but to truly have a say in balancing factors (that aren't egregiously obvious like 5000dmg attacks), you actually need to spend time learning and playing the class under the duress of actual fights and multiple scenarios
  • Pyori said:
    Leviticus said:
    constantly see classes I have went be unplayable at the high level.

    No class is 'unplayable' at a high level. Do some take a lot more effort than others? Yes. Are the unplayable? No.

    Also help credits:
    Disclaimer:
    -----------
    Achaea is a functioning world, and while we guarantee you will not lose any of the credits you buy, no such guarantee can be provided for what you purchase with the credits themselves. Naturally, we wouldn't be in business very long if this happened frequently, but as it is a world, your actions have consequences, and the actions of others can result in consequences for you. It's this dynamism in the nature of the world that people enjoy about Achaea. Thus, it is possible that the perceived or real value of the things you purchase with credits, or your ability to use those things, may both rise and decline during the course of play.
    It very much is possible that artifacts are much stronger than they're intended to be, which don't get found out until particular people play around with them and prove just how ridiculous they are (hi torc, nobody misses you). This means they get nerfed, that's how combat balance is done. Just because you paid money, that doesn't mean the things paid for shouldn't be balanced to be more reasonable. That's just... Silly.

    @pyori
    BM. Go play it right now and go through the combat rankings with it. You can't. Take all the effort you want. When people can avoid brokenstar or just outright ignore it, you are in a pickle. Good luck missing on regular attacks on top of clumsiness.

     @Adrik
    I don't have a problem with gambling, I, along with a lot of other people, like to invest in games that I enjoy. I spent all that money over the last 12-13 years.

    I WANT more people to classlead their ideas, not less. Every single person has an idea or solution that may lead to great results. I am just stating that people need to put time into playing DwB Infernal in order to truly understand what is and is not possible/easy. You may see Proficy go around destroying people in DwB Infernal but you have no clue the time, resources and money he put into obtaining that level of play. Their is no one here that knows more about the pros and cons of DwB Infernal than Proficy because no one else plays it.

    My statement about playing them at a HIGH level is an ignorant, stupid and please disregard it. I truly believe everyone needs to classlead what they wish to see changed in the game rather than let "more knowledgeable" people classlead for them is what has been happening for a while. They may not have all the different points of view. Also Mak is human, I know it was a surprise to me too. My only problem is that people, including myself, tend to speak out of ignorance but never truly tested what they see as being a problem. Does Achaea have a public testing server? We need one to truly test these things. 


    @Farrah
    All true and I respect your viewpoints. I just like to remind people of things they may have forgotten or never experienced. I understand everything you stated. Does it need to be tweaked? Sure. But tweaking DwB has a consequence for three classes so it needs to be tested and reviewed. People who say DwB Infernal vivisect/pulp is unavoidable don't understand the requirements to do both. They are not as easy with the momentum as people think they are and both can be very telling and countered. 

    @Calira

    Deathaura takes balance. Daegger hunt takes balance. People forget about how FAST achaean combat is. 12 seconds and you can be locked. Yes, Apostates can pressure health and mana and make someone go defensive. I agree. Not as easily as you think they can though. Curseward, paralysis, clumsiness and running into different rooms are quite difficult to deal with. Apostate is in a good spot if Catheris can go through shield or they speed up Corrupt by a lot.  


  • Deathaura is something you put up before the fight even starts. Since it's mobile, it's not really worth mentioning as a balance you have to spend. Daegger hunt is likewise actually free in combat now since it's usable off balance.

  • Dagger levitate is eq balance. Dagger hunt can be used off balance correct. Deathaura can be put up before the fight but if someone did that to me, I'd start as soon as it hit me.
  • Leviticus said:
    Dagger levitate is eq balance. Dagger hunt can be used off balance correct. Deathaura can be put up before the fight but if someone did that to me, I'd start as soon as it hit me.

    Levitate is usable off balance as well. You never have to slow your offense for the daegger anymore. It can also be made balanceless with an artifact, which basically just lets you get hunt setup faster (rather than deadeyes/levitate, deadeyes/hunt, you can just do levitate/deadeyes/hunt).
  • Farrah said:
    Leviticus said:
    Dagger levitate is eq balance. Dagger hunt can be used off balance correct. Deathaura can be put up before the fight but if someone did that to me, I'd start as soon as it hit me.

    Levitate is usable off balance as well. You never have to slow your offense for the daegger anymore. It can also be made balanceless with an artifact, which basically just lets you get hunt setup faster (rather than deadeyes/levitate, deadeyes/hunt, you can just do levitate/deadeyes/hunt).
    You are a wealth of information. Thank you.

    Not many new players have the ability to purchase 400 credits for the daegger though. So two balances to get daegger hunt going. Deathaura before engagement isn't too bad. 
  • edited April 2018
    Leviticus said:
    @pyori
    BM. Go play it right now and go through the combat rankings with it. You can't. Take all the effort you want. When people can avoid brokenstar or just outright ignore it, you are in a pickle. Good luck missing on regular attacks on top of clumsiness.
    Combat rankings has virtually never been a good source of what's good and what isn't. Particularly considering that a number of tactics aren't doable in the arena. Brokenstar isn't the only way a BM can kill people. Especially if they're artied.

  • If clumsiness is the only way to counter dwb, its not clumsiness that needs to be nerfed?
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo Domingo
    Zheo said:
    If clumsiness is the only way to counter dwb, its not clumsiness that needs to be nerfed?
    No  :scream:

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • Aegoth said:
    Autobotting against Alrena as a class that shuts Apo down will do nothing to elucidate you to the intricacies of the class.
    Last I checked, Calira was Jester and Occultist... Neither of which "shut down" Apostate, if they're supposedly top-tier.

    I don't often see eye to eye with things she says, but comments like these don't really help anyone. Particularly when there's plenty of reasons someone can't/won't go and play X class. Doesn't mean they can't comment on the class.

  • Shouldn't this just be discussion for the current class leads listed? I was hoping there would be discussion from knowledgeable people on those, so that I could learn a thing or two.

  • I'm quite excited about the change to mind warden and the approved adjustments to sap. I've only recently taken priest and have yet to play around with it in a real sense, but I'm looking forward to testing the changes and having a real go at it.

    Also : bard doesn't look like it's gotten any hard nerfs, which is a bit of a relief.
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

  • Shirszae said:
    Zheo said:
    If clumsiness is the only way to counter dwb, its not clumsiness that needs to be nerfed?
    No  :scream:
    Sorry, I realize now that the way I wrote this could be taken two ways because I'm bad at grammar. I'm saying dwb needs nerf not clumsiness.

    Fighting dwb is just un-fun as certain classes and/ or certain health thresholds. Barring arti differences, if I lose to a class it should be because I made mistake(s), not because I'm doomed to lose if I don't kill them first. 
  • Voli said:
    Reading this makes me happy:
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Decision:
    Rejecting this because its not the direction I want to go, but I do have plans to add some more
    group utility to blademaster this round.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Careful, that's what they said about synthesis and refining ::-D

  • Atalkez said:
    Sylvan and DW aren’t killing you from that damage with no recourse. Once you go prone vs DwB, it’s over.

    Leviticus, no you cannot survive a Pulp Vivi fork. It is a 100% kill if you do it right.

    While people discussing may not have played it on live server, we’ve all tested nearly every class on the test server. No one is talking about nerfing the class into oblivion, but it shouldn’t be able to just roll through anyone he fights because he paid money. That’s not balance.

    Like Farrah said, some of us have paid the exact same as Proficy to be able to survive and still can’t. Proficy is the reason I dropped BM, when I nearly died to 4 flail combos in Mir inside my own city. It’s simply not a reasonable level of damage and continuing breaks.

    At the end of the day, no you don’t get to kill people because you spent money. Classes are going to continually be adjusted to be survivable and balanced, and it’s DwB’s turn for that.

    I do agree with Proficy on the point of it not having anything else. I never liked that the class only does damage and has no other real options. The problem is the interaction between damage and the kill setups. No reason for it to do that much damage while prepping or when the person is prone.
    I am not saying that because someone paid money they deserve to kill everyone or "roll through anyone he fights" (He doesn't). I am saying that because someone paid money they should have an advantage over someone who doesn't have artefacts or there isn't an artefact that counters it. Should he be able to do high damage with DwB, yes. He paid for it. Is what I am saying. It's not the artefact's fault the class design is flawed and allows flails to do a lot of damage to people. 

    That is what we have lost sight of throughout the years. We have constantly made changes to classes due to artefacts combined with the class set. We, as a community, don't think about the real money people spend on this game is all I am saying. We, as a community, tend to nerf things into the ground and increase the difficultly of playing a class. This impacts new players more than players who can use multiclass to change whenever they want. Isn't that what we are trying to accomplish? Bring new players and new blood into this community? The more we change classes due to artefacts the harder we are making it for new players. 
  • New players are less likely to stay when they see the sheer pay-to-win component of a game.
     <3 
  • Mathilda said:
    New players are less likely to stay when they see the sheer pay-to-win component of a game.
    This is the exact controversy of loot boxes. I thought it was funny in this decade as that's how it's always been here for the most part.

  • Mathilda said:
    New players are less likely to stay when they see the sheer pay-to-win component of a game.
    ...and for a free-to-play game, that pay-to-win gap has gotten significantly larger over the past few years.




    (Party): Mezghar says, "Stop."
  • edited April 2018
    Edit 1:  I don't really need to post a ton of this because honestly it can just be better said in a PM instead of here. Sorry.

    I disagree that "Everyone should just classlead what they want even if they don't know what they're talking about".. because it ends up with  a decent chunk of the unapproved pile and stuff. I sure-as-hell ain't going to argue for nerfs/buffs to things when I don't know what the heck I'm talking about.
  • Leviticus said:
    I am not saying that because someone paid money they deserve to kill everyone or "roll through anyone he fights" (He doesn't). I am saying that because someone paid money they should have an advantage over someone who doesn't have artefacts or there isn't an artefact that counters it. Should he be able to do high damage with DwB, yes. He paid for it. Is what I am saying. It's not the artefact's fault the class design is flawed and allows flails to do a lot of damage to people. 

    That is what we have lost sight of throughout the years. We have constantly made changes to classes due to artefacts combined with the class set. We, as a community, don't think about the real money people spend on this game is all I am saying. We, as a community, tend to nerf things into the ground and increase the difficultly of playing a class. This impacts new players more than players who can use multiclass to change whenever they want. Isn't that what we are trying to accomplish? Bring new players and new blood into this community? The more we change classes due to artefacts the harder we are making it for new players. 
    Except he pretty much does. He may lose to the one or two matchups that DwB struggles against regardless of it's offense, but pretty much everything else just gets destroyed. There's 0 reason for me to fight him in anything like BM/Monk/Bard that has paltry resists and poor armour - and my defensive investment is probably higher than his offensive investment, since I have Mantle on top of the normal defensive stuff. DwB forged is just as crazy, though, and that's something a lot of people don't realize. The damage uptick from the arties is a lot more minimal than you would think - it's the speed that really makes the most difference. You can still Pulp with a TON of time to fight through room hinder or whatever, and as Infernal you can still fork Vivi/Pulp for 100% secured kill. You keep saying there are counters - there aren't. You either die to Pulp or you die to Vivi - there is no option.

    I think you've got it backwards. The situation that hurts new comers is walking into a fight and being totally obliterated, because you didn't spend money like someone else did. That's not a good place to be for the game. No one has lost sight of the fact that people have spent money on the game. The problem, whether you want to note it or not, is that artefacts have become so widespread - you have to balance around them. It doesn't do us any good to balance a class perfectly, then let someone spend money and now the class does things it wasn't actually intended to do. This is why Torc was deleted, and why damage has been worked and re-worked over the years. It's a process of fine tuning mechanics so that you have an advantage, while it not being so enormous that you can't overcome it with skill. At the end of the day, I 100% believe that the more skillful player should win - not the person who does more damage because they had a bigger credit card or whatever it was that allowed them to buy a ton of artefacts.




    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • Adrik said:
    Edit 1:  I don't really need to post a ton of this because honestly it can just be better said in a PM instead of here. Sorry.

    I disagree that "Everyone should just classlead what they want even if they don't know what they're talking about".. because it ends up with  a decent chunk of the unapproved pile and stuff. I sure-as-hell ain't going to argue for nerfs/buffs to things when I don't know what the heck I'm talking about.
    You may have a solution to a problem that no one else has thought of. If you see something you don't like classlead it. It may give Mak and his team more things to read but it could lead to another problem being solved.
  • edited April 2018
    The momentum requirements for DWB are pretty trivial too tbh. I wouldn't mind the kill being unstoppable if it required enough momentum that a pure momentum class could fight against it, but it doesn't. If you are pointing to momentum denial as the counter, you're saying momentum classes (especially slower ones) basically have to just stop fighting for 3 minutes until their limbs reset, which is boring and a major issue to me.

    Momentum decay is also insanely slow compared to momentum gain, so you can go defensive and not lose all your momentum like an actual momentum class does. I'm sure a prep class could hit and run slow prep the DWB but some classes really have no option.
  • The window between having the artefacts and not having artefacts is probably smaller with the implementation of more aff-based kills, however I'd also say that even though the gap between them is smaller, for certain classes having a level 1/2/3 artefact can open completely different, and vastly more efficient,strategies that just aren't available to those without the artefacts.

    Factor in not having to go as defensive as others if you have defensive artefacts against damage, and the hinder race - being able to afflict .3s quicker, or stick afflictions 2 hits quicker than your opponent, it can combine to a rather large difference given the small window available.

  • Telinus said:
    The window between having the artefacts and not having artefacts is probably smaller with the implementation of more aff-based kills, however I'd also say that even though the gap between them is smaller, for certain classes having a level 1/2/3 artefact can open completely different, and vastly more efficient,strategies that just aren't available to those without the artefacts.

    Factor in not having to go as defensive as others if you have defensive artefacts against damage, and the hinder race - being able to afflict .3s quicker, or stick afflictions 2 hits quicker than your opponent, it can combine to a rather large difference given the small window available.


    It's a difference. It's just not comparable to what the difference used to be. I look at all the changes over the years and see huge improvements for unartied people. Some of it does depend on whether you're willing to take advantage of what's available though. For example, as a heavily artied person I can play any class I want and not care about min-maxing. I can be int spec monk for Kai chokes in group even while going for aff-based 1v1 kills and never have to worry about my max hp being too low.

    If I was unartied though, I could go tash'la and take robust trait and con spec just for the extra con so my max hp would be roughly what I fight with currently with my arties. I could bother getting runes more often, and use azelhurium if I wanted, too. My sips and regen would still be lower but my max hp would be about the same and my offense would be the exact same (I play shikudo, kill with dispatch and locks, and have unartied staff). It's hard for me to imagine arties making a huge difference in that situation. I don't even have SoA paragon so a lot of the time I don't have that bonus either.

    That's just one class/race example though and if you're adamant about playing a class or race that sucks unartied, you'll have bigger problems. I don't think there used to even be as good of options as there are now though.
  • Atalkez said:
    Leviticus said:
    I am not saying that because someone paid money they deserve to kill everyone or "roll through anyone he fights" (He doesn't). I am saying that because someone paid money they should have an advantage over someone who doesn't have artefacts or there isn't an artefact that counters it. Should he be able to do high damage with DwB, yes. He paid for it. Is what I am saying. It's not the artefact's fault the class design is flawed and allows flails to do a lot of damage to people. 

    That is what we have lost sight of throughout the years. We have constantly made changes to classes due to artefacts combined with the class set. We, as a community, don't think about the real money people spend on this game is all I am saying. We, as a community, tend to nerf things into the ground and increase the difficultly of playing a class. This impacts new players more than players who can use multiclass to change whenever they want. Isn't that what we are trying to accomplish? Bring new players and new blood into this community? The more we change classes due to artefacts the harder we are making it for new players. 
    Except he pretty much does. He may lose to the one or two matchups that DwB struggles against regardless of it's offense, but pretty much everything else just gets destroyed. There's 0 reason for me to fight him in anything like BM/Monk/Bard that has paltry resists and poor armour - and my defensive investment is probably higher than his offensive investment, since I have Mantle on top of the normal defensive stuff. DwB forged is just as crazy, though, and that's something a lot of people don't realize. The damage uptick from the arties is a lot more minimal than you would think - it's the speed that really makes the most difference. You can still Pulp with a TON of time to fight through room hinder or whatever, and as Infernal you can still fork Vivi/Pulp for 100% secured kill. You keep saying there are counters - there aren't. You either die to Pulp or you die to Vivi - there is no option.

    I think you've got it backwards. The situation that hurts new comers is walking into a fight and being totally obliterated, because you didn't spend money like someone else did. That's not a good place to be for the game. No one has lost sight of the fact that people have spent money on the game. The problem, whether you want to note it or not, is that artefacts have become so widespread - you have to balance around them. It doesn't do us any good to balance a class perfectly, then let someone spend money and now the class does things it wasn't actually intended to do. This is why Torc was deleted, and why damage has been worked and re-worked over the years. It's a process of fine tuning mechanics so that you have an advantage, while it not being so enormous that you can't overcome it with skill. At the end of the day, I 100% believe that the more skillful player should win - not the person who does more damage because they had a bigger credit card or whatever it was that allowed them to buy a ton of artefacts.
    You are correct, it isn't about the damage of L3 Stars/Flails it is the speed increase. You don't need L3 Flails to be the best at Infernal, it is actually the L3 stars that are critical. People don't really know that. Speed allows DwB to do what it needs to do (momentum).

    I was that new player 12-13 years ago going against Manu, Tanris, Kupo, Caelan, Rangor, etc, etc. You know what they said? Suck it up buttercup. The game has gone on for 12-13 years. It is an interesting problem to solve and I hope Achaea solves it. 

    I agree the more skillful player should win but that will never be the case because each class has it's strengths and weaknesses.
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