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Transmutation Revamp

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  • CailinCailin Posts: 192Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    And does the structure change when it collapses? I.e., can you memorise which way to dig the digsite, or not?
  • DupreDupre M.Posts: 68Member ✭✭ - Stalwart
    The digsites are all 9x9x9 cubes iirc

    That's 729 plus entrance rooms each for extracting
    https://www.achaea.com/banner/caiges.jpg
  • SiduriSiduri Posts: 1,492Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cailin said:
    And does the structure change when it collapses? I.e., can you memorise which way to dig the digsite, or not?
    My theory is that yes, it is. However I will need to experiment more when I have some time.

    image
    Cailin
  • RonweRonwe Posts: 64Member, Administrator, Moderator Immortal
    edited April 5
    I've just loaded up an experimental change significantly increasing digsite digging speeds.

    Looking at the proportion of digsite rooms dug out and digsite rooms extracted from over the last week, I don't think that there was actually much of a problem. At any given time there tend to be significantly more rooms dug out than extracted from, there tend to be a significant number of rooms dug out in general, and the main exceptions are a few high-demand digsites where every room tends to be dug out and every room has seen at least some extractors. I'm happy with digsite mechanics being made more relevant again - that's unlikely to go away or be made less relevant - but I don't think there's any reason for it to take as long as it does to dig them out after they collapse. The threat/puzzle of collapse is the interesting part, not the time spent digging.
    MindshellSiduri
  • MathildaMathilda Posts: 852Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Can the Earth Lord dig boost also extend to digsite digging? :)
     <3 
    Siduri
  • RonweRonwe Posts: 64Member, Administrator, Moderator Immortal
    edited April 6
    Changes look good so far.

    As an addendum, apparently digging out digsites had a 10% chance to give you a random trash item, but also the loot table was (very poorly coded and) corrupted. I've removed the random items now that digsites have a purpose anyway, and if you were used to receiving valuable items from digging, know that this was never intentional - it was supposed to be a few random trash items, so this is no real loss. Also, given how weird a few of the items were, you should have known better. Shame!
    SiduriMathilda
  • CooperCooper IowaPosts: 4,455Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    What were they getting? 

    Rekhyr
  • SiduriSiduri Posts: 1,492Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I kept gettings empty vials near decay and shipmates. Like... Buried, live shipmates. This was hilarious.

    Nothing valuable though!

    image
    KayeilZbacoXias
  • MorthifMorthif Posts: 1,547Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    there were shipmates on Nish too, something is fishy
  • SkyeSkye The Duchess BellaterePosts: 2,744Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
    noooo, my shipmate collection :(


    Tysandr
  • IctinusIctinus Posts: 175Administrator Admin
    The shipmates problem should be sorted out now.
    "If you build it, they will come."
  • IsmayIsmay Posts: 539Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    This digsite collapsing crap is ridiculous. Harvesters don't have to deal with this mess.
  • SkyeSkye The Duchess BellaterePosts: 2,744Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
    yes we do. :|


    SiduriKayeil
  • SiduriSiduri Posts: 1,492Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 7
    Ismay said:
    This digsite collapsing crap is ridiculous. Harvesters don't have to deal with this mess.
    Where do you think moss and bloodroot come from?
    Credentials: Harvester and Extractor.

    image
    Caelan
  • MathildaMathilda Posts: 852Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    RIP shipmates
     <3 
    Xias
  • IsmayIsmay Posts: 539Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Ok sure. That makes it worse since everyone has to deal with it. Sorry but I gave up after 3 collapses. Imagine having to do that each time we extract/harvest? It’s not worth all the damn dashing to regain lost xp from who knows how many embrace deaths.
  • TahquilTahquil Posts: 4,002Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Well the 3 most well-known sites use to be a stable dog pattern for months. Then some little shit comes along and collapsed it... which is going to happen anyway unless Ronwe feels super gracious and takes away the digging mechanics in that area.

    wasnt there something said right at the start of this thread how they were trying to encourage people to form conglomerates with others to use the new system the most efficient way?
  • XadenXaden Posts: 2,315Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Did someone collapse the plumbum site?
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

  • AntoniusAntonius Posts: 4,527Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Siduri said:
    Ismay said:
    This digsite collapsing crap is ridiculous. Harvesters don't have to deal with this mess.
    Where do you think moss and bloodroot come from?
    Credentials: Harvester and Extractor.
    There are loads of areas with moss and bloodroot that aren't digsites. I've never had problems harvesting either when needed, and I didn't know where any digsites were prior to the extraction changes.
  • KyrraKyrra Sanctum of the SkyPosts: 4,659Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I have an almost full rift of bloodroot and moss on two characters and I very rarely go through digsites. I never felt it to be necessary.
    (D.M.A.): Cooper says, "Kyrra is either the most innocent person in the world, or the girl who uses the most innuendo seemingly unintentionally but really on purpose."

  • CaelanCaelan Posts: 1,129Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I have 10,000 of every herb, mineral and prime.  Doesn't make digsites any less annoying.

    IsmayZbaco
  • RonweRonwe Posts: 64Member, Administrator, Moderator Immortal
    edited April 9
    Most minerals are plenty available outside of digsites (all minerals are in many non-digsite rooms). For the few exceptions where the non-digsite rooms tend to be extracted out, if 1-second dig times and having to figure out how not to collapse digsites (and/or occasionally run out when someone else collapses one) is a problem, then you can try to extract when the non-digsite rooms repopulate each day, use your monthly free transmutations to obtain that mineral, arrange for others' unused free transmutations, or pay for reactants if you need more immediately. You have options.
    Skye
  • RonweRonwe Posts: 64Member, Administrator, Moderator Immortal
    edited April 9
    Tahquil said:
    wasnt there something said right at the start of this thread how they were trying to encourage people to form conglomerates with others to use the new system the most efficient way?
    That was a minor consideration that doesn't have much to do with digsites. I was noting that, if you didn't want to deal with going out and extracting a particular mineral, but you still wanted to fulfill large orders, one efficient way to do that would be to build a small network of other transmutationists, allowing you to pay pennies on the dollar for their free transmutations rather than buying transmutation reactants or paying near market rate for people to go out and actually extract the stuff.

    To offer some development insight, I didn't set out to design transmutation with this in mind. The original idea was to use reactants to put a ceiling on the price of minerals in case there were ever a spike in demand or a shortage for any reason, thus totally avoiding some historical problems herbs have very rarely seen. The daily allotment of free transmutations came later to offer a little perk for transmutationists, so transmutation wasn't relegated only to rare and unforeseen problems that spiked prices. And the prime/metal tradein came last since I knew I wanted to shift primes and metals to alchemists what with direct extraction, but I also didn't want to make the existing stockpiles completely worthless.

    The fact that the end result of this was that it might be efficient to employ smaller extractors to do transmutations for you was largely accidental, though a happy accident - historically a lot of the game's economy is supplied by a small number of very large suppliers, and I'm happy for any kind of incentive to get smaller players involved a little bit too, even if I still don't foresee it happening too frequently. Transmutation and extraction are definitely not balanced with that in mind though.
    Tahquil
  • SiduriSiduri Posts: 1,492Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Can we please fix my shovel? I'm unable to dig with it since the changes. I'm sad.

    image
  • RonweRonwe Posts: 64Member, Administrator, Moderator Immortal
    Siduri said:
    Can we please fix my shovel? I'm unable to dig with it since the changes. I'm sad.
    Broken shovels have been fixed since Monday. I just tested yours and it appears to work correctly.

    If you're still having trouble with it, please message me or submit a BUG in-game.
    ConnellSiduri
  • SiduriSiduri Posts: 1,492Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Thanks. I'll check once I'm home from work <3

    image
  • LockiLocki Posts: 9Member
    Before I start ranting on, I'd like you all to know a little bit of backstory.

    I was originally a serpent who specialized in Venom milking back in the day. Then after milking was dissolved, I swapped over to Alchemist for Transmutation, Then transmutation turned to formulation. So once again, I class changed to apostate and proposed synthesis as my trade skill. You may notice this already; but all the class abilities I prefer are ones that allow the user to slowly build up valuable materials through time and effort. "Collector" classes if you will. Slowly but surely, I'm finding the effort that I put into my character is being erased for no other reason than unguided "progress". ( I currently have about 100k of primes in my homestead, that use to be worth ~160k minerals; now only worth 100 vials of reactants, AKA 20k conversions. Not even enough to fill up a rift. ) (That's ~830% costs increases)

    First thing I want to point out is the lack of LORE related to this change. Keep in mind that the "Minerals" that we eat as cures are artificial. In, Essence: they don't show up in nature. Like Vitamin C Extract in solid flake form. Why would you take a premise like that and think to yourself, "Oh lets just throw them into the ground; that'll be fine". (So am I now to assume that Mhaldor has a dependence on naturally grown minerals? even though that was our original purpose of avoiding Harvesting?)

    This change is just ridiculous. It was not even needed. The whole point to adding this kind of update would be to attempt to eliminate the time spent synthesizing minerals when at an alchemical lab. If that was the case, they could have just altered the syntax for existing synthesis abilities to be able to work with more per batch. But the whole point of Synthesis to begin with was to negate the need to explore for various cures, and instead invest time in order to evenly distribute your materials. By making "transmutation" similar to Harvesting, it totally ruins its intended utility. I would have just went with harvesting; as it has abilities that allow for collection of niche cures/plants. (cactus etc.)

    Making people go to Digsites for minerals? "PFFT". I'd rather just farm an area, I've been through. Even if it means it costs 10x the amount in minerals to convert. Why?.. Because that's what I picked the synthesis skill-set for in the first place.

    Also getting back to these Reactant conversion costs. 2000 minerals for only 200 reactants, each reactant worth 1 mineral conversion. Really!?? Even if there is a gold exchange for reactants, it doesn't change the fact that the efficiency of Synthesis/transmutation has been drastically reduced. Before, It cost about 3 primes for 5 minerals. Now it costs 5 primes just to convert a single existing mineral. Like seriously!? Not to mention that reactants all need vials. So either you get 10 empty vials and spend 10k in primes (20k in minerals), or you just pay a random denizen tons of gold. Which I don't have.

    The fact is; that it is an in-game financial deficit already. It is undescriptive to have a skill called "transmutation" not be a manufacturing based skill-set. Frankly speaking, I would not have invested as much as I did into my character if I had known that every time I make a mountain of resources, they would instantly lose their value.

    I can agree with the changes to some point, Like the desire to spread mineral types all over the realms. Even if it doesn't fit correctly with the lore. Although, the overall costs of Reactants, as well as the inability to use our currently stockpiled assets, seems like a huge knife in the back.

    If this were to actually work as intended, without the need for fully going back to Synthesis, I'd suggest a vast decrease in the materials required to brew reactants. It would be far more reasonable if you could get 200 reactants for 100 minerals or 60 primes. {Half the cost of actually producing it the old way}( Although still more expensive than before; It would keep it vaguely inline with previous cost/efficiency.)

    Seems just like a waste of all my time collecting and also makes the justification of an "alchemical" skill-set; all the more difficult to pull off. If there are any particular reasons that you guys must have such a crazy reactant cost, please let me know.   :/
  • CooperCooper IowaPosts: 4,455Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    All of your points are wrong. None of what you said is based on facts. This was a MASSIVE buff and helped everyone. Anyone who says differently is really just wrong, and the people who realize this are tired of rehashing the same points that the people bitching straight up ignore.

    KyrraTreyRekhyr
  • LockiLocki Posts: 9Member
    edited April 19
    How is this at all a buff? We literally net-earn less per room than before. we use to get from 5-9 primes per room which made about ~15 minerals. without gloves. Now we get 1-7 minerals per room. Seems definitely like a loss. Please explain it to me if there is some extra benefit. 

    Edit 1: Or do we have the ability to havest two types of minerals in the same room now? I've only seen locations with a single type thus far.
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