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Transmutation Revamp

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  • KietKiet Posts: 2,839Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    System seems fine to me, people just got spoiled by 4-5 gold per mineral and are worried about slight possible increases. Some minerals might hike up, but because Achaea is always a race to the bottom on the seller side, there'll be some jackass losing money on transmutating selling at a loss always.
    TorinnRekhyr
  • KeorinKeorin Posts: 527Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Curatives aren't some optional item, though, they're a basic cost for doing a huge number of activities in the game, and one that falls far harder on midbies who can't go dragon hunting to easily pay for supplies. Worse yet, if people have to transmutate, that increased cost doesn't even help make transmuting more profitable.

    I don't understand how important minerals being harder to get for the seller and more expensive to buy for the playerbase is a good situation for anyone involved.
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaPosts: 4,789Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Because there's a ton of gold in the system and additional goldsinks are good for the game overall.

    I can't think of hardly any of our midbies (who are far more subjected to both PVP and PVE than some other cities may be) having struggled to afford their cures. If they did, I'd probably tell them about some nice little midbie areas to make gold that won't murder their cures in the process.

    That said, I also think it's way too soon to guess how the mineral changes will effect things overall, so I wouldn't expect many, if any, changes for a few weeks.
    "You have had an extraordinary adventure, my dear. Extraordinary! One that few people could ever imagine. Treasure it. Keep it safe and secure, tucked away in some special place in your heart. 

    But... don't spend the rest of your days chasing a ghost."
    Torinn
  • KeorinKeorin Posts: 527Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Gold sinks are good when they bleed excess gold out of the system. They're not so good when they're just going to require people to grind up more gold just so they can pay to participate in certain activities.

    As someone who's never gotten a character to dragon, I've been in situations where cures are difficult to pay for plenty of times, myself, and I've seen plenty of other people in similar situations. Gold income around level 80 just isn't great.
    ShirszaeDochitha
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,839Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    When moss was 100+ gold per you had a valid complaint, and I agree that cures should not be a big limiter. They're not, though. Even at 15 gold per (which is the realistic price ceiling), you can certainly afford minerals just fine.

    As it was, though, synthesis wasn't ever worth it for a gold/hour standpoint, and now maybe it'll at least be sort of useful in that way.
  • KhaibitKhaibit Posts: 367Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    It...it's not a gold sink if the money just goes to another player... 


  • KietKiet Posts: 2,839Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Khaibit said:
    It...it's not a gold sink if the money just goes to another player... 
    (reactant costs are a gold sink)
    SiduriTorinnMelodieYen
  • CooperCooper IowaPosts: 4,435Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Minerals are not more difficult to obtain than before. The opposite is true - you can acquire minerals at 2-3x the speed you could before.

    This change is going to drive prices down, not up. It will just take a while before people use their heads and realize this was a massive boost and not a nerf.

    KyrraRekhyrSena
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,839Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's likely most minerals will become cheaper, yes, but the ones limited by availability that are in high demand like aurum and magnesium will probably get more expensive even if you can technically get more per time spent.
    Keorin
  • KeorinKeorin Posts: 527Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    If you think that paying 10 per or more for curatives isn't a limiter on activity, you're just wrong. It might not be for you, but for people who are around Logosian, who might not even have all their class skills in place, it's definitely significant. I've been in that position, and I've seen other people in that position.

    Unless I'm totally misjudging extraction rates, aurum/magnesium/plumbum are all looking like they'll see a price increase, and that's definitely going to hit people. Gold has to come from somewhere, and I don't see how requiring that people hunt more to be able to afford curatives to do what they might rather be doing is a good system for anyone.
  • CooperCooper IowaPosts: 4,435Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You are misjudging extraction rates, and under estimating how useful 200 free reactants per day is.

    Taryius
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormPosts: 2,931Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I have checked over 70 areas, including mainland, Meropis, wilderness and outer islands, and found one single source of plumbum, consisting of 19 rooms. This represents a yield of about 120 plumbum per hour. Of all the minerals, plumbum is one that I go through quickest.

    Sorry Cooper, but 200 free transmutations per RL day just won't touch the sides.

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
  • DochithaDochitha Posts: 1,283Member @ - Epic Achaean
    500 free per day will be nice. 2k gold for 500 reactants will be sweet spot. 2 minerals per room too.

    I don't know, but I think making necessity more accessible is a huge thing in human civilisation and growth. Generally, every newer generation enjoys better accessibilities to necessities, and you can tell the difference easily .
  • IohannaIohanna Posts: 68Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    There are more than just one area that yields plumbum in the areas you've mentioned above. I'd try to offer to help more, but I don't know which area you are currently extracting from. You could try checking the north-western wilderness again, as well as on Meropis in a location nestled between the vasnari mountains and judgement mountain. Either way, that should double your extraction rate! :)

    I suppose my only personal gripe is that I haven't found many magnesium locations that don't require you to pay 1000 gold to use the ferries back and forth or own a personal ship to get to supplying magnesium island. This probably just falls on myself for not yet having discovered more accessible areas for it. I'm really enjoying the changes thus far, though!
    Rekhyr
  • MinifieMinifie Posts: 1,904Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The fun of exploring to find the minerals wears off after a day or two, then it just becomes "what's the fastest route to get the best minerals". I'm ok with the prices going up, and a gold sink being added, but at this rate I'd prefer reactants be 25g and reactants be 1:2, and having the 200 free every RL day to do 1:1. this improves the gold sink ever so slightly, and allows you to still have good "easy" circuits but more expensive to turn them into good minerals (12.5gp instead of 10). If you want to go find them all, you'll benefit from the much better mineral prices, if you want the lazy way to be self sufficient, you may end up paying more in time+gp than just paying someone's prices, but you don't have to rely on finding a seller. 

    just my 2c.


    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
    Zbaco
  • RonweRonwe Posts: 63Member, Administrator, Moderator Immortal
    edited March 14
    At the moment, every mineral appears in approximately the same number of extractable rooms. It's possible that I will need to adjust some of the more popular ones, but it doesn't look likely at present. For example, 6% of the total aurum capacity is currently extracted, and 7% of magnesium. There are several areas with each, several quite large areas with many extractable rooms for each. Many people have not yet discovered some of the largest such areas.

    As for the transmutation cost, the goal is not to make transmutation economical. Unless there is, for some reason, a very large shortage of a particular mineral, which is unlikely given the quantities available and the rate at which they replenish, transmutation will never be on par with extracting. Transmutation provides a safety valve, a conservative cap on how high the price of minerals can ever go, and it provides a 200 mineral-a-day convenience. Looking at transmutation cost as establishing the going rate of minerals is a mistake.

    As Cooper notes, mineral generation should be significantly more economical now. The intent was not to raise mineral prices or to introduce transmutation reactants as a general gold sink - transmutation reactants are a safety valve, a small daily convenience, and an option to spend gold if you like being self-sufficient, but can't be bothered to travel to appropriate extraction sites. It's hard to know whether the changes will drive prices up or down, since creating minerals is significantly faster now, but people don't tend to value time spent AFK very much, and most of the cost from before was time spent letting a script spam commands. I'll be keeping an eye on mineral prices, but at the moment it's still too early to tell what will happen.
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormPosts: 2,931Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sorry for double post, but I have now found a second source of plumbum (yay!)

    Also, every time I see the title of this thread, this comes to mind:


    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
    Sobriquet
  • SobriquetSobriquet Posts: 1,980Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Me too, but I wasn't sure anyone would get the reference!
    image
  • KhaibitKhaibit Posts: 367Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Another issue-
    Many of the caves/mountains etc have aggro beasties. This is not a problem for me, but not everyone is a giant dragon with little fear of the monsters. This makes it a problem for smaller extractors 


  • ReysonReyson Posts: 503Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Are there actually 'little extractors?'
  • XadenXaden Posts: 2,312Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 14
    Well, it used to be that you could take Synthesis, put no lessons into it, and extract primes and simply sell them on. So it was a nice little earner for newbies.

    Now, though, primes don't exist*, and you can only extract ferrum with no lessons put into the skill. I'd imagine 'little extractors' are going to be few and far between.


    *from an extraction stand-point.
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

    MelodieCede
  • MilabarMilabar Posts: 114Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I'm just patiently waiting for people to sell bulk orders again :( 

    Wtb 10k of each mineral, once a rl month, please and thank you.

    From a consumer stand point, as I have harvesting yet hate to harvest, buying minerals in bulk was simply the better option.  I would buy 10-20k of each mineral from different younger extracters A: to help them advance in skills and B: it was simpler for me to buy them at 5-6 per and not stress it as it was still much cheaper then herbs in general.

    So far with the changes, average price has bumped up to 8p, and I'm back to getting deliveries of every mineral daily again, just in lower amounts at a time (500-800) per mineral, which is fine cause then I can just throw that months bashing gold at it and still stockpile, just slower then before 

    Besides a temporary bump in price, as a customer, I've seen little difference.  
  • AntoniusAntonius Posts: 4,500Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm sure it's annoying that you can't just run through one easy to get to area and make a load of whatever mineral you want to, but a lot of the things people are complaining about are things harvesters have always had to deal with.
    TorinnKyrra
  • MinifieMinifie Posts: 1,904Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Antonius said:
    I'm sure it's annoying that you can't just run through one easy to get to area and make a load of whatever mineral you want to, but a lot of the things people are complaining about are things harvesters have always had to deal with.
    Harvesters never had to /afk in a lab for hours either, still don't think any problems between the two are comparable.


    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
    Zbaco
  • KhaibitKhaibit Posts: 367Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Reyson said:
    Are there actually 'little extractors?

    Level has no say on what skills you have learned or can learn. If people want a trade to earn money, then they are more likely to buy credits to get a skill. 


  • AntoniusAntonius Posts: 4,500Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Minifie said:
    Antonius said:
    I'm sure it's annoying that you can't just run through one easy to get to area and make a load of whatever mineral you want to, but a lot of the things people are complaining about are things harvesters have always had to deal with.
    Harvesters never had to /afk in a lab for hours either, still don't think any problems between the two are comparable.
    They're now functionally identical in a lot of ways, so of course some problems are comparable because they're shared by both.

    Some of the best harvesting areas are through the wilderness or on Meropis. Some of the best harvesting areas have strong aggressive denizens. Options for fast travel and the ability to tank (or kill) strong denizens have been required to harvest at maximum efficiency for a long time, so it's not an issue that needs to be fixed for Transmutation.
    Torinn
  • KhaibitKhaibit Posts: 367Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Antonius said:
    Minifie said:
    Antonius said:
    I'm sure it's annoying that you can't just run through one easy to get to area and make a load of whatever mineral you want to, but a lot of the things people are complaining about are things harvesters have always had to deal with.
    Harvesters never had to /afk in a lab for hours either, still don't think any problems between the two are comparable.
    They're now functionally identical in a lot of ways, so of course some problems are comparable because they're shared by both.

    Some of the best harvesting areas are through the wilderness or on Meropis. Some of the best harvesting areas have strong aggressive denizens. Options for fast travel and the ability to tank (or kill) strong denizens have been required to harvest at maximum efficiency for a long time, so it's not an issue that needs to be fixed for Transmutation.
    How many of the 'best harvesting' areas have only 1 type of plant though? 


  • MinifieMinifie Posts: 1,904Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Khaibit said:
    Antonius said:
    Minifie said:
    Antonius said:
    I'm sure it's annoying that you can't just run through one easy to get to area and make a load of whatever mineral you want to, but a lot of the things people are complaining about are things harvesters have always had to deal with.
    Harvesters never had to /afk in a lab for hours either, still don't think any problems between the two are comparable.
    They're now functionally identical in a lot of ways, so of course some problems are comparable because they're shared by both.

    Some of the best harvesting areas are through the wilderness or on Meropis. Some of the best harvesting areas have strong aggressive denizens. Options for fast travel and the ability to tank (or kill) strong denizens have been required to harvest at maximum efficiency for a long time, so it's not an issue that needs to be fixed for Transmutation.
    How many of the 'best harvesting' areas have only 1 type of plant though? 
    they both show up in rooms now, which makes both "functionally identical".


    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
  • KietKiet Posts: 2,839Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I can run through almost every extract zone off the top of my head in lesserform as a dex specced serpent, people will manage.
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