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Fixing Player Housing

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  • KeorinKeorin Member Posts: 1,187 @ - Epic Achaean
    The problem isn't that there's danger, in my mind, it's that there's -more- danger then not using housing. If I want to do some casual roleplay or talk to someone for a while, I can find a nice spot in the city, and so long as I'm on guard/in call for help range, odds are that I'm not about to get interrupted by someone who feels like prisming over just because they can.

    In my experience, a good chunk of the time I've gotten prismed to has been when people want to start some skirmishing in the subs, and honestly, that risk alone tends to make player housing feel more risky then most other places in the game. I don't think that player housing should be completely secure, but I think a private home should be a measure safer then going completely afk on a guardstack.
    Laedha
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Having IC repercussions for actions (be it house guards or whatever else) is a lot more interesting than saying "make it issueable!"
    CailinTorinn
  • ReysonReyson Member Posts: 813 @ - Epic Achaean
    ...so get non-prism in a room, and drop a monolith, and don't carry mushrooms on you when you're in a house? 

    Locking someone and forcing mushroom is an actual attack, which you need a valid reason for, and that's the only way I can really think of getting into a house that isn't being a soul (which we've all agreed is a bad mechanic, and one ought to be able to guard against with an upgrade for the entrance. 

    I really don't get it. You can already literally prevent people from prisming into your house, so what's the issue? 
  • KeorinKeorin Member Posts: 1,187 @ - Epic Achaean
    What IC repercussions have ever worked to meaningfully discourage people from theft/interruption/being a jerk? If someone prisms into a house looking for a fight, they're already prepared to die, and death is essentially the only IC repercussion that has ever existed for messing with someone outside your faction.

    I feel like if I can't interrupt your roleplay by starting a radiance on you, I probably shouldn't be able to interrupt it by prisming in and inviting a raid group.
  • AccipiterAccipiter Member Posts: 829 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Keorin said:
    The problem isn't that there's danger, in my mind, it's that there's -more- danger then not using housing. If I want to do some casual roleplay or talk to someone for a while, I can find a nice spot in the city, and so long as I'm on guard/in call for help range, odds are that I'm not about to get interrupted by someone who feels like prisming over just because they can.

    In my experience, a good chunk of the time I've gotten prismed to has been when people want to start some skirmishing in the subs, and honestly, that risk alone tends to make player housing feel more risky then most other places in the game. I don't think that player housing should be completely secure, but I think a private home should be a measure safer then going completely afk on a guardstack.
    Is this a problem, or do you just imagine this is a problem?

    Actual question.
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Keorin said:
    What IC repercussions have ever worked to meaningfully discourage people from theft/interruption/being a jerk? If someone prisms into a house looking for a fight, they're already prepared to die, and death is essentially the only IC repercussion that has ever existed for messing with someone outside your faction.

    I feel like if I can't interrupt your roleplay by starting a radiance on you, I probably shouldn't be able to interrupt it by prisming in and inviting a raid group.
    How many active thieves do you see? Even when theft was better, there was only a handful.

    It's obtuse to expect IC repercussions to make a thing disappear entirely. They're there to make it actually dangerous for the perpetrator and to deter johnny angrynoob from doing it.

    The issue is people think IC repercussions should just be reskinned OOC repercussions--effective outlawing and banning, just under a flag that allows them to claim it's roleplay.
  • ReysonReyson Member Posts: 813 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited January 2018
    Given that a vast majority of housing is in a City, trespassers should be charged and bounties, because trespassing is a crime in most places, afaik. If you want to hire on them, too, for a successful prism, fine. Double death for one offence seems pretty reasonable for the crime of breaking your scene. 

    Like Jurixe said, protections put in place should be available if you want to work to get them. Housing shouldn't be made safe by pk law, it should be made safe by investment. 

    At this very moment, unless there's a monk involved who's attacking you (forcing undeaf to force is an attack, as it strips a defence) or something similarly gimmicky that skirts the line between acceptable and not, there is a 100% reliable way of making it impossible for someone to prism to you in the middle of your scenes. If you think housing's too expensive, then fine, that's a conversation that can be had. But don't make it about pk law, because the move away from pk lawyering has by and large been a good thing, and the admins have made it pretty clear they don't want to hardcode consequence into Achaean interaction (just because you don't like it, for the record, doesn't make it an invalid form of interaction). 

    ETA: I will say that OoS plots might need a little bit stronger defences than in-subs ones, given that you can't lay City charges against them/they can linger in an area all they want and aren't defended by a City's worth of security people. Not sure what the solution is there, but it's worth thinking about, to be sure. 
  • KeorinKeorin Member Posts: 1,187 @ - Epic Achaean
    Accipiter said:
    Is this a problem, or do you just imagine this is a problem?

    Actual question.
    I can only speak from personal experience, but it's happened to me/someone who I was in the house with three or so times by now, and it's been the most common outcome from when I've been prismed to in a house in general. It's been probably the biggest reason why I have almost no interest in messing with housing stuff. It's not worth paying out the nose just to have my house not be a security threat.
  • ReysonReyson Member Posts: 813 @ - Epic Achaean
    I feel like we keep coming back to points that have already been addressed. Haven't most people already agreed that better options for storage/display were a good idea that we'd almost universally like to see implemented? :( 
    XadenTahquilSherazadTorinn
  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 2,124 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2018
    Keorin said:
    It's not worth paying out the nose just to have my house not be a security threat.
    What.

    So you want security to just be what... Free?

  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If PK isn't a deterrent, then why do people constantly demand the right to never be PKd?


  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 2,124 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kiet said:
    If PK isn't a deterrent, then why do people constantly demand the right to never be PKd?


    I feel like it's a version of this


    TaryiusSherazadAziik
  • AccipiterAccipiter Member Posts: 829 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Xaden said:
    Kiet said:
    Keorin said:
    What IC repercussions have ever worked to meaningfully discourage people from theft/interruption/being a jerk? If someone prisms into a house looking for a fight, they're already prepared to die, and death is essentially the only IC repercussion that has ever existed for messing with someone outside your faction.

    I feel like if I can't interrupt your roleplay by starting a radiance on you, I probably shouldn't be able to interrupt it by prisming in and inviting a raid group.
    How many active thieves do you see? Even when theft was better, there was only a handful.
    It's not actual mechanical theft that's an issue. We all know that pick-pocketing is horse-shit and only gets something daycent once ever nine billion attempts or whatever.

    It's the 'prism in and hit ^graball$' that really fucks with a player.

    Little anecdote: Going back to when I first came back to playing, I managed to convince the chancellor of Targ to rent me a shop. In preparation for this I began to make and horde minerals and inks. I got to about 600K worth of product (5gp minerals then - so can double that nowadays).

    Error 1 : Stored all of this stuff in my house. 

    Error 2 : I went mindless in that room.

    Three people decided to prism in and took everything. 

    Now, all my own fault of course, it could absolutely have been prevented.

    However, in this situation I lost literally everything I'd done that week - 60 hours or so of effort. And the thieves stood to lose: .1% XP from a mark hit.

    -----------------------

    It's the complete lack of balance in these scenarios that needs to be addressed.

    So, I don't understand the issue here. You dumped a whole bunch of minerals in a room you knew wasn't secure, went mindless and someone stole it. You understand your errors, yet apparently using houses for something they weren't designed to do that you did poorly is justification for them to be changed?

    They aren't storerooms. You aren't supposed to be leaving 600k of non-decaying, easily stolen items in them. The admin are always telling us that making things non-decay takes up server space, they made minerals and herbs non-decay as a benefit to us and people abuse it by leaving dozens of items on the ground instead of picking them up and storing them in the nice, data unintensive rift.

    If you were talking about sweet stuff you got from a fair that you made non-decay or something you would have my sympathy, but this sort of crap is what ruins stuff for the rest of us.
  • XadenXaden Member Posts: 2,315 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Accipiter said:
    Xaden said:
    Kiet said:
    Keorin said:
    What IC repercussions have ever worked to meaningfully discourage people from theft/interruption/being a jerk? If someone prisms into a house looking for a fight, they're already prepared to die, and death is essentially the only IC repercussion that has ever existed for messing with someone outside your faction.

    I feel like if I can't interrupt your roleplay by starting a radiance on you, I probably shouldn't be able to interrupt it by prisming in and inviting a raid group.
    How many active thieves do you see? Even when theft was better, there was only a handful.
    It's not actual mechanical theft that's an issue. We all know that pick-pocketing is horse-shit and only gets something daycent once ever nine billion attempts or whatever.

    It's the 'prism in and hit ^graball$' that really fucks with a player.

    Little anecdote: Going back to when I first came back to playing, I managed to convince the chancellor of Targ to rent me a shop. In preparation for this I began to make and horde minerals and inks. I got to about 600K worth of product (5gp minerals then - so can double that nowadays).

    Error 1 : Stored all of this stuff in my house. 

    Error 2 : I went mindless in that room.

    Three people decided to prism in and took everything. 

    Now, all my own fault of course, it could absolutely have been prevented.

    However, in this situation I lost literally everything I'd done that week - 60 hours or so of effort. And the thieves stood to lose: .1% XP from a mark hit.

    -----------------------

    It's the complete lack of balance in these scenarios that needs to be addressed.

    I don't understand 
    That's ok.
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

    Sobriquet
  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 2,124 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Accipiter said:

    So, I don't understand the issue here.
    The situation he described, is merely exactly that: describing the problem. That being the thief stands to lose nothing but a few minutes of bashing (which they aren't gonna give a toss about anyway, else they wouldn't be stealing in the first place). And everything to gain, if the attempt succeeds. Like most 'conflict' things in this game, the aggressor really doesn't lose anything from trying/failing, and can gain a lot from succeeding. That is the very definition of an unbalanced system.

    SkyeKayeilZbaco
  • KeorinKeorin Member Posts: 1,187 @ - Epic Achaean
    Pyori said:
    Keorin said:
    It's not worth paying out the nose just to have my house not be a security threat.
    What.

    So you want security to just be what... Free?
    A security risk to your city, I mean. I can sit almost literally anywhere but in a house and not have to worry that people are going to prism to me and use that to start a fight. That, to me, is a pretty meaningful risk.

    The problem is that PK is only a meaningful deterrent for people who actively don't like PK. People who steal/prism into houses in enemy cities either like or accept it. If someone finds dueling fun, or is mark/dauntless already, then how is a mark/infamy/whatever supposed to be a consequence in the first place?
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Because PK consequences aren't meant to stop people from doing something entirely. They're there to limit the amount of people who'll engage in it.
  • AccipiterAccipiter Member Posts: 829 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Pyori said:
    Accipiter said:

    So, I don't understand the issue here.
    The situation he described, is merely exactly that: describing the problem. That being the thief stands to lose nothing but a few minutes of bashing (which they aren't gonna give a toss about anyway, else they wouldn't be stealing in the first place). And everything to gain, if the attempt succeeds. Like most 'conflict' things in this game, the aggressor really doesn't lose anything from trying/failing, and can gain a lot from succeeding. That is the very definition of an unbalanced system.
    Yes, and you have one way to avoid that: use the system as intended and not try to be a smartass hoarding shit.

    Is everyone in this thread complaining about them not being safe enough to use trying to 'display' a massive pile of herbs and gold? I thought they had some legitimate points but if that is the case then I am against any changes unless minerals and herbs get a decay time again. Say an hour out of rift would be good.
  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 2,124 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2018
    Keorin said:
    A security risk to your city, I mean. I can sit almost literally anywhere but in a house and not have to worry that people are going to prism to me and use that to start a fight. That, to me, is a pretty meaningful risk.
    You can sit in a house too and not have to worry, if you get the no-prism addon. You said a house should be safe if you want to go afk/RP in private, and plenty have already said you can do that with housing's current state, if you get no-prism to do so. Not sure what else there is to say, really.

    Accipiter said:
    Yes, and you have one way to avoid that: use the system as intended and not try to be a smartass hoarding shit.
    Rifts aren't limitless. Houses also aren't the only places that can be stolen from in the described way. If this is your argument, then you're right that you haven't been reading/following the thread very well.

  • XadenXaden Member Posts: 2,315 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I get not understanding something, but being wilfully obtuse? Nah, get fucked.
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,631 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Not everyone has display concerns about herbs and gold. Most display concerns are things like the tapestry and statues from Bazaars, custom items given as gifts from loved ones, other sentimental or decorative things.

    I agree houses shouldn't be used as defacto storerooms. But being able to display a nice vase or a family heirloom should be facilitated.
    AccipiterMelodie
  • ReysonReyson Member Posts: 813 @ - Epic Achaean
    Why are we still talking about this? Didn't people mostly vote in favour of lockable containers to dump crap you don't want to/can't carry around with you, for expressly this situation? If it's done through the housing upgrade system, I really don't see an issue with this. 
  • AlrenaAlrena Member Posts: 647 @ - Epic Achaean
    Accipiter said:
    Pyori said:
    Accipiter said:

    So, I don't understand the issue here.
    The situation he described, is merely exactly that: describing the problem. That being the thief stands to lose nothing but a few minutes of bashing (which they aren't gonna give a toss about anyway, else they wouldn't be stealing in the first place). And everything to gain, if the attempt succeeds. Like most 'conflict' things in this game, the aggressor really doesn't lose anything from trying/failing, and can gain a lot from succeeding. That is the very definition of an unbalanced system.
    Yes, and you have one way to avoid that: use the system as intended and not try to be a smartass hoarding shit.

    Is everyone in this thread complaining about them not being safe enough to use trying to 'display' a massive pile of herbs and gold? I thought they had some legitimate points but if that is the case then I am against any changes unless minerals and herbs get a decay time again. Say an hour out of rift would be good.
    The main problem with this is for miners. Unless you pay credits to expand your rift, you're not going to be able to store the easily 5000 coal a single mine can deliver. An option to store them somewhere semi-safe is needed if only for that.

    That said, I don't mind more risk on behalf of the perpetrators. What about prism giving more infamy, and then a big chunk more infamy when they go through, unless it's to a citymate or mutual ally? Then the perp has to decide between being a nuisance, and having a target for all the Dunns and Proficy's and Atalkez's of the world. It won't stop it, but it'll deter it. Also homeOWNERS have absolutely every right to hire on the perp. Then there's a mark and every dauntless or infamous dude can go after the now-infamous nuisance. I already check to see what's inside the room to see if there's even a chance for loot. No containers, nothing on the floor and I won't bother. Being a nuisance just for the sake of being a nuisance isn't appealing, to me, at least.

    Also I'm in favour of containers being more secure for display purposes. I'm not sure how I feel about 100% safe storage for commodities, herbs and inks, things that can be replaced. But I do think some protection for those rare and cherished items you want to display should exist.
    image
    AccipiterCailin
  • MathildaMathilda Member Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited January 2018
    If you bothered to read, it's also about not being safe enough from PK dogs that just want to bait people into attacking them for invading a house. If a house invader dies, it's no big deal for them -- an hour of bashing, at most. But for the victims, they typically lose anything that's not nailed down, plus the opportunity of interacting with people who matter to them.

    I don't get to play a lot right now, so the hour or two when I can play I try to maximise by checking in on my proteges, advance some planning with peers, etc. But when a pest wants to come and bother us, even in the privacy of a house, all that is lost. I have to put it off for another day, and there's only a small chance that I can get the necessary people together again.

    PK is not enough of a deterrent for pests, but it's a monumental inconvenience for their victims. Saying "well you should have done X and you wouldn't have been assaulted" is terrible, like saying you should have worn unflattering clothes if you did't want to be harassed. It reinforces the idea that the victims are at fault if something bad happens to them.

    Edit: this is to @Accipiter
     <3 
    Zbaco
  • MathildaMathilda Member Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited January 2018
    It only takes one person who makes it a habit to break into houses to harass people for it to warrant attention. And if you're feeling insulted about being categorised with those sort of people, that's maybe a sign you're on the wrong side.

    And again, the no-prism thing? It only stops so much, and furthermore, it still places all of the burden on the potential victims.
     <3 
    Zbaco
  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 3,209 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2018
    You are equating prisming into a house in a text game to sexual assault. I have no idea how you intend to make anyone agree with your point when, for all intents and purposes, you've designated those who disagree with you on a similar level to SEXUAL ASSAULTERS.

    Can we stop on the prism shit already? To keep this in a DECENT place:

    *lockable containers in furnishing for owners
    *display ability for people to display stuff safely without paying for non decay and resetting
    *OoS houses having access to greater security

    These things seem to be commonly agreed as good changes, can we focus on potentially more things to help housing?
    Accipiter
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