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Fixing Player Housing

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  • TorinnTorinn Member Posts: 1,350 @ - Epic Achaean
    In a multiplayer game you don't always get to opt in because people are unpredictable.  It's really that easy.  It sounds like you want multiplayer star dew valley (which would be awesome let's not kid ourselves) but Achaea is not that.
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,977 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2018
    You have about as much "right" to say no as aggressors have a right to bust your shit in at their whim and fancy. There are no "rights" here. You can do your best to -avoid- conflict, before/during/after it starts, but to say that you have a "right" to that, and to assume you need to be consenting, is laughable at best
  • MathildaMathilda Member Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I'm frankly disgusted by how little value is given to consent in this game.
     <3 
    ZbacoKayeilShimi
  • AccipiterAccipiter Member Posts: 829 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I don't think anyone really cares that they can't attack random guard sitter who doesn't interact outside of their city. Mostly because 90% of people won't know who they are to interact with them anyway. The problem is creating safe spaces means that people who want to be assholes can do it with impunity.

    I personally also think people should get out into the world but then I am one of those people no one knows about so...
    Torinn
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,541 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I know about you!




    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • ShimiShimi Member Posts: 115 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    This is a game that people play for fun, that people invest real world money into, why should they not have the right to say “hey, right now I don’t want to deal with your aggressive bullshit?” I am not saying they don’t interact at all, in point of fact my post was quite the opposite of that. But I don’t think you should be -required- to deal with people being dicks 100% of the time, just because it’s what THEY want. You choose to involve yourself in combat, you know the consequences. You choose to be a dick to someone, you should know there are consequences. But if you are actively avoiding that for the day, haven’t been in raids lately, don’t start shit with anyone, and want to spend an hour uninterrupted hanging out with your text-family making story? Why shouldn’t you be able to have a private place, a HOME, to do so? You guys are making it come off that it really doesn’t matter, your right to be an asshole is more important than their right to have peace.
    KayeilShirszaeZbaco
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,541 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Well the issue is that if it’s an option then people will abuse it. So while someone like Kayeil may never pk and it work perfectly for her uses; someone else could abuse it the same as they do ships now to escape repercussions.

    Has to be a happy medium found, or else we’re merely emulating ships on land.




    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • ShimiShimi Member Posts: 115 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited January 2018
    Atalkez said:
    Well the issue is that if it’s an option then people will abuse it. So while someone like Kayeil may never pk and it work perfectly for her uses; someone else could abuse it the same as they do ships now to escape repercussions.

    Has to be a happy medium found, or else we’re merely emulating ships on land.
    And several people have suggested something like a conflict mitigation or tracker to keep you from simply hiding inside an impenetrable fortress. AND I did say I didn’t support it becoming 100% impenetrable too... but to say a game you play literally FOR FUN, is one where you have no rights, and that consent doesn’t matter really smacks of a disgusting set of selfishness and values in our community. Whether or not I am someone “known” in the community, and whether you guys find value or don’t in my opinion... to tell someone they don’t get to say no... wow way to be a predator.

    edit: not directing the last bit at anyone in particular... but wow I am just shocked and saddened by the community in general right now.
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,541 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I mean I agree about the consent, but at the same time, who gets to decide where the line goes?

    I can run up on you right now and fondle/kiss/touch/hug you inappropriately without your consent - so is it really all that different?

    I think being able to remove yourself is completely fine. I think being able to remove yourself completely at your own whim and leaving others 0 options to change that, is not fine.




    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    ChiamVender
  • ShimiShimi Member Posts: 115 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    It doesn’t leave you with 0 options? And if someone runs up and fondle/kiss/whatever’s me without consent they will get threatened, and likely hired on if they choose to pursue FURTHER actions. I am not good at combat, I know this, I generally stay sidelined or out of it. Other people have other options.
    if I remove myself from public areas, I am always available to talk to people. I have been on shrine raids and defense, if someone wants to take a bounty out on me I would respond to a tell asking me to come out and duel. Because I accept the consequences of my actions.
    i understand there will always be people who abuse things, I even said that I don’t think houses should be 100% impenetrable. I actually support the fact this game has villains. But it’s still a game guys.
  • TorinnTorinn Member Posts: 1,350 @ - Epic Achaean
    I find it fun to never be safe, that there is always the possibility of conflict.  Is your version of fun better than my version of fun?  No, neither is better than the other.  Thus, "fun" cannot be used as a measurement.  Let's steer away from that gauge because it is highly subjective.  Any person that has fun one way there will be another that finds fun the opposite way.
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
    Vender
  • TysandrTysandr Member Posts: 494 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Torinn said:
     It sounds like you want multiplayer star dew valley (which would be awesome let's not kid ourselves) but Achaea is not that.
    I would love to see this @Torinn.
    "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."

    Torinn
  • KeorinKeorin Member Posts: 1,187 @ - Epic Achaean
    Jurixe said:
    Making a successful prism hireable would make people think twice about breaking in, or at the very least it would give you a better opportunity at retaliation.
    I'm not really sure that this is true. In my years playing this game, I've never seen hiring act as a meaningful deterrent to much of anything. At -best- it's a small bit of revenge, but one death of experience loss isn't really a repercussion to anyone who actively steals/breaks in.

    I think if the goal is to make it more like how pk functions now, it would make far more sense to just treat prisming as initiating an attack, subjecting it to the current restrictions on initiating mechanical conflict. That would keep people from using a house to hide from existing conflict any more then they can now, but it would be a meaningful limit on one-sided, unprovoked interruption.
  • ReysonReyson Member Posts: 813 @ - Epic Achaean
    There -is- a way to make a spot in a house 100% prism-proof, though. What am I missing here?
  • JurixeJurixe Where you least expect itMember Posts: 1,750 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Reyson said:
    There -is- a way to make a spot in a house 100% prism-proof, though. What am I missing here?
    The point, I think, is an attempt to shift some of the responsibility onto the instigator rather than always having it be the recipient's responsibility to protect their playstyle.

    Even if someone never pks at all, other players will still try to prism to them just because they're bored or think they might be a good theft target because sometimes when you'e waiting for people to respond, you end up being idle for a while and that shows on Who B.

    My suggestions are based on the assumption that everyone agrees we should be able to safeguard items in houses, so I'm not taking theft into consideration. Without the element of house theft, I'm expecting that breaking into random houses will lose much of its appeal other than theft from players (which is already heavily limited) and to kill people.

    I think adding hireability on top of that would be enough of a deterrent that people who do it either have a good reason to REALLY want that person dead, or don't mind death - but in the second situation the risk quite significantly outweighs the reward if you're doing it just because, especially if you can kill them in the house and still hire on them.

    Other than that, I think that having to pay for complete security is a decent enough trade-off.
    If you like my stories, you can find them here:
    Stories by Jurixe and Stories by Jurixe 2 

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    Mathilda
  • ReysonReyson Member Posts: 813 @ - Epic Achaean
    You can hire on someone who breaks into your house, I've no problem with that (although you -should- be asking your MoS to file a bounty for trespassing if someone's breaking into houses that's not a citizen of that City. If the person breaking in -is- a citizen, then... I don't know, talk to the principal or something). 

    Secure containers and options for display making it so that someone in your house doesn't mean you just got cleaned out, I've been on board with since the beginning of the thread!

    I'm just not sure I have much empathy with someone who sits around long enough to get prism'd to- if you know you or your guests are going to be idle enough that a prism can go through, then probably get no-prism in the room you're going to be not-paying-attention in for long enough for that to happen, or else don't sit somewhere where someone prisming in is an issue? 

    The issue of consent-to-interact is one, I think, the two sides are just going to have to agree to disagree on. 
  • KeorinKeorin Member Posts: 1,187 @ - Epic Achaean
    Prism takes what, twelve seconds to go through? I feel like everyone sometimes roleplays when they're not constantly looking at the screen, or sometimes has to get up for a moment and doesn't want to journal every time they have to. Should those people only be able to use houses as a site for roleplay after noprism's been bought? Because that's a pretty significant barrier to entry.

    Prisming in on someone is incredibly one sided interaction, as it is now. You catch them unaware for a few seconds, you prism in, and you now ended whatever they were doing in order to rob them/start a fight. Unless that person can fight and win on the spot, their part in the "interaction" is to leave and call in their city. I think it ends and interrupts more interaction then it ever creates.
    ShirszaeShimiZbaco
  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 3,209 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Keorin said:
    Prism takes what, twelve seconds to go through? I feel like everyone sometimes roleplays when they're not constantly looking at the screen, or sometimes has to get up for a moment and doesn't want to journal every time they have to. Should those people only be able to use houses as a site for roleplay after noprism's been bought? Because that's a pretty significant barrier to entry.

    Prisming in on someone is incredibly one sided interaction, as it is now. You catch them unaware for a few seconds, you prism in, and you now ended whatever they were doing in order to rob them/start a fight. Unless that person can fight and win on the spot, their part in the "interaction" is to leave and call in their city. I think it ends and interrupts more interaction then it ever creates.
    You can always embrace the interaction of enemies and have them crash, or  ignore them with disdain. Things such as party crashing, gate breaking and other things can liven up events, as long as it isn't prism in "lol pk" run away. Some of the best dramatic tension in books/tv shows/movies comes from people who aren't supposed to be in places being in places. Bad guys gotta be bad guys sometimes, and some of us like being villainous at times. 
  • KeorinKeorin Member Posts: 1,187 @ - Epic Achaean
    In theory, it can be interesting. In practice, it basically never is. You don't generally get good interaction by jumping in and forcing people to interact with you, at the expense of whatever they actually wanted to do. And you can't just blame the people you're jumping in on for not making it fun for themselves.
    Shirszae
  • AccipiterAccipiter Member Posts: 829 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    So, what about something like offensive actions against people in a house that you are not in the same infamy cost that stealing has? 
  • ReysonReyson Member Posts: 813 @ - Epic Achaean
    Monoliths make prisms longer to go through, it's really really not that fast. If you're not looking at your screen enough to notice it come through and go, then I really just don't see how you're anything but afk. Make a big ass highlight for its beginning message, always stand on a monolith (it extends the time it takes it to go through), there's really no reason to get prismed to if you're at all looking at your screen once every ten seconds. 

    If you want security that doesn't depend on you being attentive to defend yourself, pay for security, I'm not sure why that's somehow unreasonable. 
    Kyrra
  • KayeilKayeil Washington StateMember Posts: 2,824 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Minifie said:
    Keorin said:
    Prism takes what, twelve seconds to go through? I feel like everyone sometimes roleplays when they're not constantly looking at the screen, or sometimes has to get up for a moment and doesn't want to journal every time they have to. Should those people only be able to use houses as a site for roleplay after noprism's been bought? Because that's a pretty significant barrier to entry.

    Prisming in on someone is incredibly one sided interaction, as it is now. You catch them unaware for a few seconds, you prism in, and you now ended whatever they were doing in order to rob them/start a fight. Unless that person can fight and win on the spot, their part in the "interaction" is to leave and call in their city. I think it ends and interrupts more interaction then it ever creates.
    You can always embrace the interaction of enemies and have them crash, or  ignore them with disdain. Things such as party crashing, gate breaking and other things can liven up events, as long as it isn't prism in "lol pk" run away. Some of the best dramatic tension in books/tv shows/movies comes from people who aren't supposed to be in places being in places. Bad guys gotta be bad guys sometimes, and some of us like being villainous at times. 
    I feel like it was Melodie or Skye and maybe even Shimi who explained why this is almost never the case and rarely turns out to be mutually interesting.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

    Shirszae
  • KeorinKeorin Member Posts: 1,187 @ - Epic Achaean
    Reyson said:
    Monoliths make prisms longer to go through, it's really really not that fast.
    It's exactly that fast. Twelve seconds with a monolith, six seconds without.

    You really can't see how someone might not be watching the screen every ten seconds and still not be afk? Gods forbid someone doesn't want to journal and interrupt everything just to go to the bathroom.
  • XadenXaden Member Posts: 2,315 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    And as we get older the process of taking a simple piss seems to get longer and longer :(

    Damnit Reyson, respect my bodies needs!
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

    Shimi
  • ReysonReyson Member Posts: 813 @ - Epic Achaean
    Get a no prism room to afk in, then -_-
  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 3,209 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 2018
    got ganked in mhaldor today from being afk, it happens, even though I was Tviewing to help a friend. The world is more alive when even safely afking around a bunch of mhaldorians leave me deaded, but it gives me reasons to go detonate more tanks so I'm always keen. I understand wanting somewhere safe, and houses need a few fixes here and there (especially to safely display stuff), but I still think "safely afking" shouldn't be feasible. You QQ or journal, or you don't "safely" anything.
    Torinn
  • MathildaMathilda Member Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Except the issue isn't solely AFKing. It's about unwanted people inserting themselves into the conversations and interactions of others, with absolutely little to no repercussion. The same people are crying out "well you gotta include them!" No, I don't want to, because a vast majority of them don't want meaningful participation. They just want to be a pest.
     <3 
    KeorinShimiKogan
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