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Elemental Lord Combat

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  • FarrahFarrah Posts: 1,953Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Dochitha said:
    @Solnir:

    Head path:
    0 break LL, 2.5 Break RL, 5.0 CalH break H, 7.5 Aval, 9.34 they die.
    Their possible applies:
    0 salve leg, 4 salve leg, 8 salve head, 9.34 die
    0 salve leg, 4 mend, 5 salve head, 9 cured calcify, survive.
    0 salve leg, 4 preapply head, 8 cured calcify, survive.

    Torso path:
    0 break LL, 2.5 CalT break RL, 5.0 break T1, 7.0 Cal complete T2, 7.5 calcify squeeze.
    Their possible applies:
    0 salve leg, 4 salve leg, 7.5 die
    0 salve leg, 4 mend, 5 salve leg, 7.5 die.
    0 salve leg, 4 preapply torso, 7.5 die

    Torso path is hence stronger.

    Got a log for you: 
    https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/OLUJYHTy (just scroll to bottom)
    You guys are just doing it wrong if simply applying mending first is stopping you. Literally all you have to do is wait a fraction of a second to make sure their leg apply wasn't mending, and then do the calcify head/head break. If they're only curing affs they actually have and not holding applies, you should reliably get them every time (barring tumble into nairat, and other prone defense).

    If they preapply head, you definitely don't head break, but they also aren't getting anywhere so you can get free torso prep.
    TysandrArmali
  • SolnirSolnir Posts: 709Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Thank you Doch, that explains a lot.
    Also, sorry for being so shit at limb classes evereyone, I'll stop spamming this thread now.
  • DochithaDochitha Posts: 1,283Member @ - Epic Achaean
    Took a bounty on @Krysanth, messed up my farsee and chasing, but luckily @Krysanth stayed back to fight, totally unexpected, and hence the fun:
    https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/E2Bz5NDC

    With style, I was killed by her from the ground, right after I killed her, a balance apart!

    I ran away to PREVAIL, so we could fight like Lord and Lady, she waited!

    We went again, full log:
    https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/oC6AXq56

    Shoutout to @Krysanth for being super fun and engaging. Really hope all bounties or contracts would end up that beautiful and spicy.


    KrysanthExelethril
  • ExelethrilExelethril Posts: 3,266Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited January 15
    I just realized I wasn't parrying against your EL yesterday, @Dochitha fml. I was still stuck on my random arm switch parry mode from fighting Seragorn earlier instead of randoming legs.

    [ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]

    [ Runewarden Sparring Videos | Link ]
    Dochitha
  • TelendriethTelendrieth Posts: 213Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Just a quick question. We've pretty much established that aside from con increasing health and int increasing mana, none of the stats change anything else for elemental lords, right?
  • SolnirSolnir Posts: 709Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Yes.  
    Telendrieth
  • SolnirSolnir Posts: 709Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited January 23

    Does anyone else think that the requirements for nova are strict? I seem to get the kill off a pre-nova explosion most of the time, because once their health is low enough to prep nova (or explosion/nova), I have to rebuild spark back to 4 (since ideal usage of the class seems to be using invokes heavily), and if I'm using explosion I have to build brand up to 3, also. Dunno about anyone else, but this has given opponents plenty of leeway for escape, too.

    @Torinn @Taryius

    Just checking myself against others before I finish compiling my list of fixes needed for Fire EL.

  • AsmodronAsmodron Posts: 2,495Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Solnir said:

    Does anyone else think that the requirements for nova are strict? I seem to get the kill off a pre-nova explosion most of the time, because once their health is low enough to prep nova (or explosion/nova), I have to rebuild spark back to 4 (since ideal usage of the class seems to be using invokes heavily), and if I'm using explosion I have to build brand up to 3, also. Dunno about anyone else, but this has given opponents plenty of leeway for escape, too.

    Torinn Taryius

    Just checking myself against others before I finish compiling my list of fixes needed for Fire EL.


    I dont see why you're having spark issues. I've gotten Nova several times and almost never was in the situation where my spark was too low.

    I'm not sure why you're relying heavily on invokes. Can you go into more detail there? You should mainly be using Flamewhip invoke. The others are either very situational or frankly just not worth it. Blister invoke is nice in theory but very costly and also situational. Char alone is a great way to slow your enemy down and build up spark.


    I'm honestly really curious what your setup is that you're finding yourself so low on spark near to the kill. Frankly by just building the brand alone for an explosion into nova...you should have enough :/
    Mercurus
  • TaryiusTaryius Posts: 413Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Asmodron said:
    Solnir said:

    Does anyone else think that the requirements for nova are strict? I seem to get the kill off a pre-nova explosion most of the time, because once their health is low enough to prep nova (or explosion/nova), I have to rebuild spark back to 4 (since ideal usage of the class seems to be using invokes heavily), and if I'm using explosion I have to build brand up to 3, also. Dunno about anyone else, but this has given opponents plenty of leeway for escape, too.

    Torinn Taryius

    Just checking myself against others before I finish compiling my list of fixes needed for Fire EL.


    I dont see why you're having spark issues. I've gotten Nova several times and almost never was in the situation where my spark was too low.

    I'm not sure why you're relying heavily on invokes. Can you go into more detail there? You should mainly be using Flamewhip invoke. The others are either very situational or frankly just not worth it. Blister invoke is nice in theory but very costly and also situational. Char alone is a great way to slow your enemy down and build up spark.


    I'm honestly really curious what your setup is that you're finding yourself so low on spark near to the kill. Frankly by just building the brand alone for an explosion into nova...you should have enough :/
    I haven't found spark to be the limiting factor, moreso that somr people are too tanky.

    I guess a possible issue with spark is that they are low enough to nova, but you need one more hit to build the spark and that gave them enough time to realize and leap/shield.

    Feels  like bigger issues than that, I have ideas that would make it -better- but not fix the core issue of some people lol ' ignoring' fire lord.
  • SolnirSolnir Posts: 709Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited January 23

    Yeah, I've got bigger issues also, but that was one I noticed. Generally speaking, my pathing is char until brand, flamewhip (invoke if spark is good) to build brand, latency (going off memory for name.. rebrands?), repeat until health is low enough to explosion/nova. But 9 out of 10 times I get health low enough to exp/nova and it's right after a flamewhip invoke, so I have to rebuild spark... and, as Taryius said, they'll usually shield/leap once they're getting anywhere near that range.

    Tankiness is definitely a larger factor for me - as I said in rants, I can't kill anyone with a lvl3 health sip at all.


    ETA: I'm at work so that pathing may not be exactly how I have it, I feel like there's more whips in there somewhere. But that's the gist of it.

  • AsmodronAsmodron Posts: 2,495Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Taryius said:
    Asmodron said:
    Solnir said:

    Does anyone else think that the requirements for nova are strict? I seem to get the kill off a pre-nova explosion most of the time, because once their health is low enough to prep nova (or explosion/nova), I have to rebuild spark back to 4 (since ideal usage of the class seems to be using invokes heavily), and if I'm using explosion I have to build brand up to 3, also. Dunno about anyone else, but this has given opponents plenty of leeway for escape, too.

    Torinn Taryius

    Just checking myself against others before I finish compiling my list of fixes needed for Fire EL.


    I dont see why you're having spark issues. I've gotten Nova several times and almost never was in the situation where my spark was too low.

    I'm not sure why you're relying heavily on invokes. Can you go into more detail there? You should mainly be using Flamewhip invoke. The others are either very situational or frankly just not worth it. Blister invoke is nice in theory but very costly and also situational. Char alone is a great way to slow your enemy down and build up spark.


    I'm honestly really curious what your setup is that you're finding yourself so low on spark near to the kill. Frankly by just building the brand alone for an explosion into nova...you should have enough :/
    I haven't found spark to be the limiting factor, moreso that somr people are too tanky.

    I guess a possible issue with spark is that they are low enough to nova, but you need one more hit to build the spark and that gave them enough time to realize and leap/shield.

    Feels  like bigger issues than that, I have ideas that would make it -better- but not fix the core issue of some people lol ' ignoring' fire lord.

    Tanky is somewhat an issue but Firelord was designed to counter the idea of being 'tanky' with fire resist malus. I suppose that could be tweaked more.


    In truth, my main issue is that once you prep for Nova and attempt it...you best hope it is enough. Sip arties definitely do not help, as I once brought a target down to 17% before they suddenly shot right back above the kill threshold. Runners will definitely survive, you'll have to make use of immolates in this case.

    Once you use Explosion + X, you have 1 chance to get the kill. They will recover in time to take at least 1 sip...which is indeed painful if they have a sip artie, which can be mixed with any active healing. The funny thing is that latency provides the answer for that with its ability of (the next sip of health they take will be reduced)...however you would have used latency far before that. I honestly would love if one of the abilities we used could grant that with explosion.

    I honestly wouldnt mind if Nova simply required no spark. That would open up more avenues of play with the target. I also however, dont mind if it states the same.
  • TorinnTorinn Posts: 937Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Afaik Nova only needs 2 spark, but yes the window of using it is narrow considering you generally just used your resources on an explosion to get them down that far to begin with.
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
  • SolnirSolnir Posts: 709Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    @Torinn
    Nova (Ignition)                               Known: Yes
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Syntax:            IGNITE NOVA <target>
    Extra Information: Requires maximum spark.
                       Decreases spark by two levels.
    Works on/against:  Adventurers
    Details:
    Summon forth a cataclysm unlike any other to annihilate your foes from existence. This ability requires your target be below 30%(*) of their maximum health and will slay them outright.
    * 40% if the target has sensitivity.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  • TorinnTorinn Posts: 937Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Hmm well I dunno what to say.  Maybe it was changed but I'm almost positive I've been doing it with 2 spark.  Testing is needed.
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
  • SolnirSolnir Posts: 709Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited January 23
    @Torinn
    Shit quick log but, proof: https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/LWxPiule

    ETA: Lines 23/24 are failed 2 spark nova. 
    Line 74 is failed nova because his health wasn't low enough, but at 4 spark.
  • TorrentTorrent Posts: 63Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Does anyone happen to have Elemental Water Lord Logs, I keep trying to get better at it but I am suffering a lot from not hindering and was wondering how others have done it. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!
  • PyoriPyori Posts: 703Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited May 5
    Torrent said:
    Does anyone happen to have Elemental Water Lord Logs, I keep trying to get better at it but I am suffering a lot from not hindering and was wondering how others have done it. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!
    Not a lot of hinder going on in this one, but yeah. Also needs more practice versus WLord :P From my conversations with Dunn, Water Lord apparently struggles with classes that have huge usage of paralysis, namely tfang serpents/shamans/apostates.

  • MezgharMezghar Posts: 72Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Wlord is a team powerhouse, in my experience. I don't think it should ever be a first pick for dueling or the like, just because so many things do hinder. I'm still of the opinion wlord could do with clumsiness without being too overpowered, but also not bothered by the lack. It's straight attacks aside the rest of the skillset really points to a team mentality, which is where again, it shines.
  • DunnDunn The great Buffalo tundraPosts: 5,960Member, Secret Squirrel @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's my bigger group/leading a group go to for sure. It's gross. 


  • TorrentTorrent Posts: 63Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Pyori said:
    Torrent said:
    Does anyone happen to have Elemental Water Lord Logs, I keep trying to get better at it but I am suffering a lot from not hindering and was wondering how others have done it. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!
    Not a lot of hinder going on in this one, but yeah. Also needs more practice versus WLord :P From my conversations with Dunn, Water Lord apparently struggles with classes that have huge usage of paralysis, namely tfang serpents/shamans/apostates.
    Thanks! From what I get its slow starting, but once you get a couple of affs they go down really fast. What is good for group combat, aside from the standard prone freeze? The only other thing that may work is probably changing Torrent to break both legs rather then arms but that may be too much 
  • PyoriPyori Posts: 703Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Torrent said:
    Pyori said:
    Torrent said:
    Does anyone happen to have Elemental Water Lord Logs, I keep trying to get better at it but I am suffering a lot from not hindering and was wondering how others have done it. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!
    Not a lot of hinder going on in this one, but yeah. Also needs more practice versus WLord :P From my conversations with Dunn, Water Lord apparently struggles with classes that have huge usage of paralysis, namely tfang serpents/shamans/apostates.
    Thanks! From what I get its slow starting, but once you get a couple of affs they go down really fast. What is good for group combat, aside from the standard prone freeze? The only other thing that may work is probably changing Torrent to break both legs rather then arms but that may be too much 
    Latch is pretty damn easy to pull off in group fights, since others are gonna be giving para/asthma/impatience etc, which means they're not gonna be curing your ginseng affs. You can do it in like 3 bals, if you time it right. Ryzan usually does. aff/aff -> aff/aff -> thin (when they already have haemophilia)/latch -> desiccate. If you have a shaman with you it's a cakewalk.

  • ElisellaElisella Posts: 114Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    It depends on your group.

    If you have a bunch of affliction classes, just go for desiccate: It's very quick if they're stuck curing paralysis, and I think it's possible to reach desiccate in, like, four balances if they don't cure any of your affs.

    If you have a bunch of limb damage classes or need to blow up a priority target, just use perspire/torrent into torrent/downpour. This is getting nerfed during classleads, so enjoy it now.

    Alternatively, get to latch's second stage (not room hinder, not desiccate), get haemophilia stuck, and bleed them out. Latch doubles all bleeding, doesn't have a maximum cap (in testing, Leviticus had 2890 bleeding before he died), and since it requires two affs and bleeding, you can do something like parch/thin until lethargy and haemo stick, then go into thin/latch spam. Either they die of bleeding, clot all of their mana away for your DW, or get inflamed/Brokenstar'd.
  • GilliamGilliam Posts: 42Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Drench/thin > parch/roil > thin/latch > desiccate. Four indeed. Only issue with desiccate is if any of your ginseng affs weren't delivered by you, you won't be able to latch. Doesn't even count if you were the last one to hit them with it (example: they have nausea you use roil, their nausea is still not considered yours and therefor they're unlatchable). In well coordinated teams it's a little under six seconds for a desiccate kill assuming they're not curing weariness or ginseng. While the personal affliction delivery req can be a bummer sometimes (depthswalkers tho you'd hope they'd be using degen with you around), all fluxes work on afflictions delivered by anyone. Fluxed choke + wreck on a prone target is game over. From my testing maximum scaled wreck is about 1% less damage than max downpour so expect that to be the new go-to post-nerf if the team's comp doesn't compliment desiccate.

    As far as hinder goes, yeah. Rend curare/curse paralysis dragons are straight up unfightable in wlord for example. I'd also still love clumsiness somewhere in pervasion (in a useable form looking at you bloodtinge) but I think that's been in the 'maybe' column for quite a while so not holding my breath.

    Waterbonds is dumb. Could use a rework. Wlord still my favorite class right now though.
  • IsrayhlIsrayhl Posts: 173Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Firelord still needs some work, but it is not as bad as the consensus seems to be (or was, post whatever change went into it recently). 

    Latency's frost strip takes care of any damage annoyance a target really has, for the sole reason that flamewhip without frost gives both paralysis and sensitivity on top of damage. If you're invoking flamewhip, as well, every max spark (which should be every third hit unless you're having to blow spark for off-bal slough), it is not going to take long to get brand back where it needs to be for explosion/nova. Or, if explosion increased by sensi is not enough, explosion/smoulder (preferably invoked), followed by nova on the next balance. I chew through @Nataliia's health when she is running RW with lvl 2 health regen/lvl 2 sip/lvl 2 bracelets/20-ish con. It doesn't take much work for char or flamewhip to be pulling 17-19% health per use. 

    The biggest weaknesses for firelord right now are the same that plague most elemental lords: aff momentum classes that can spam paralysis do so more effectively than char and therefore pull out ahead of the firelord's attempt to hinder them first. A new brand is healed within two sips, so if you are facing a momentum class that can spam para, most likely they will get in the sips (even if you fire off a char) before you can get the spark back to use flamewhip for the brand boost. 

    Blister gives you spark, but its damage is so small and it lasts for such a short time (20 seconds) that as a hinder, it is laughable. Plus, it doesn't STOP movement, only causes cripple-like movement, and there is no third-party message for when it fades, so as a firelord, you need your own timer running to tell you to blister again. 

    Spark decay seems very fast, too, but so long as it is in line with DWB momentum decay, I have no problem with it. Conflagerantweave would be more useful if it didn't require moderate spark and consume 2 spark levels. I imagine it is intended as an oh-shit hinder, but getting and keeping two spark when you're getting THAT hindered yourself is kind of impossible, making the skill moot. 

    In my testing, the only primalwill abilities I've found that are truly useful are: Flamewhip(brand generation), char(increased damage), and smoulder(also increased damage, plus the fire proc a few seconds later that aligns with your balance time). Most of them are too niche for usefulness. Still love the class, though, and enjoy playing with it and watching people think they are okay and then realize that they are not okay when latency has gone through, my brand is building for explosion, and their 70% health is not as high as they thought it was for dealing with me. 

    All-in-all, firelord would be a beast teamed with just about any class, although 2H, mage (timeflux would hurt more), or other burst damage classes (shikudo, occultist, kai monk) would make it mean on the field. Plus flashpoints can be followed, so they are quick and dirty ways to set up an area for quick movement since the CD is only 60 seconds (and they are instant). 

    FIRE BUGS UNITE!
    Krizal
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