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Extermination and Vivification

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  • Ahmet
    Ahmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Trey has sufficiently put into words my actual IRL reaction to said post. Thank you, Trey.
    Huh. Neat.
    Cailin
  • Mathilda
    Mathilda Member Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Attackers already have the privilege of choosing the terms of a skirmish (time, location, how much firepower to bring, what sort of fight it's over - shrine, tank, or extermination). I would never fault a defending group for choosing their manner of response, by calling guards, or shrine powers, or forest defenses (if it's Eleusis).

    If defenders respond with overwhelming power, then that usually means they have no interest in fighting you at the moment. 
     <3 
  • Reyson
    Reyson Member Posts: 808 @ - Epic Achaean
    Problem is, if you respond with all you got every time someone attacks you, people're gonna start attacking you with all they've got, since it starts to become a habit! 
  • Rangor
    Rangor Member Posts: 3,308 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 2017
    Reyson said:
    Problem is, if you respond with all you got every time someone attacks you, people're gonna start attacking you with all they've got, since it starts to become a habit! 
    This' why you attack the city that has the most even odds with you. Going in city you need to take into consideration guards most of the time.

    The whole RP war drive of course means it makes no sense to attack another city at the time, creating incredibly unbalanced raids at times. Which is also fine on occasion..
    image
  • Mathilda
    Mathilda Member Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    And at that point, the defending party can just opt to ignore you. It becomes harder to get things like sanctions and Order corpses to dust a shrine (unless you want to face the exponentially increasing costs of Judgement).

    This is why attacking groups should be responsible, else you're going to be left with no one wanting to play with you.
     <3 
  • Reyson
    Reyson Member Posts: 808 @ - Epic Achaean
    Dunno what to tell you. I've only ever attacked a group of people where my side outnumbered the other once, outside of like, 3v2's or 4v3's in Annwyn/clouds, and that was for the big guard-stomp-fest. The rest of the time, we're either matched or outnumbered, and I consistently get hit with additional stuff despite being outnumbered, so! 

    I really don't buy into the 'you earned this' narrative. I'm not whomever was griefing Eleusis two years ago, or during times I don't play, or whatever. If you want a game where it's even, it starts with you, not with the person you're playing against (even, yes, when they've kicked your ass before and it felt unfair). 
  • Klendathu
    Klendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's not just about numbers, it's also about competence. So what if they've got 8 people and you've got 4. If 7 of those 8 are non-coms, they've really only got 1 who can think on their feet. Can't just look at numbers people, you're better than this.

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
    SkyeShirszaeTorinn
  • Taryius
    Taryius Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 896 @ - Epic Achaean
    There are a lot of balancing factors, if people don't want to fight they won't simple as that and that sucks...

    But to condemn people for showing restraint and trying to even the playing field for more enjoyment is stupid. It's a give and take, if you only ever call guards and never fight head on that people will only raid that city when they know they have enough people to bash those guards.

    An example of this is Cyrene, very rarely does Cyrene ever fight without guards and that has garnered a much different reputation for raiding that city. I suppose this accomplished what Cyrene wants with fewer raids in their 'neutral' city. It seems the same issue is going on in Eleusis, the non-comms don't want raids and because of that resort to use of guards, forestbindings, worldburns etc to force people out but this puts those combatants actively looking for fights in a bad spot as they'll never find an even fight like that....

    I realise after all this rambling that I just got back to the point that the non-coms and combatants of Eleusis are on different sides and its tearing the city apart and that is why so many combatants are leaving... 

    You know I'm not even sure the point of this post anymore... Blah blah lots of balancing factors, not everyone likes having to bring enough people to bash guards, sometimes its good for your city and soldier morale to just fight and defend in a raid without these things and worst case they blow a tank.
    CaelanMycen
  • Skye
    Skye The Duchess BellatereMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,171 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 2017
    To be very frank, (and this is something a lot of 'offense side' players don't understand) defending players don't exist to provide fun at your behest and whimsy. They're actually not any more obligated to ensuring you have a good time than a bank is to give away fistfuls of cash in paper bags and calling a getaway Uber for a bank robber. 

    The only reason why anyone "has fun" in these sorts of engagements is because within the city there might be some other players who reciprocrate the desire for a fight. Which sometimes will boil down to not looking at the numbers but looking at the actual players. For example, if you want to pick a fight with Eleusis, are the usual troublemakers online or is it all just non-comm nublets? Does actually matter if there are 50 of those nublets if none of them want to play with you? 

    Having said that, the major flaw of the current city destruction system becomes very apparent when having this sort of discussion. It ultimately all boils down to a 'dependency on engagement'. You can't blow a tank if everyone clears out and just sics WB/font and refuses to let you sanction. Then you get frustrated and start looking to find ways of forcing them to engage you, be it jerking off all over their lawn exterminating, or killing their puppy guards. And then they get mad because it's like, they're making it clear they don't want to play with you, but you're going in there and starting shit anyway.

    This is like, kindergarten level interaction. Where you repeatedly approach the one kid who basically screams, bites and shits himself every time you go near him and then complain to the teacher that Bob bit you and threw a turd at your head. 


    ShirszaeZbaco
  • Mathilda
    Mathilda Member Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited June 2017
    "Blowing a tank" isn't the worst case, actually, not when fighting Mhaldor. Only a few weeks ago, a Mhaldorian player posted that they guardbashed Targossas specifically to see if they can drain the city's bank after Makarios posted that it was a possibility.

    Maybe it was a joke, maybe not, but then again, this is a group which includes someone who thinks it's their God given duty to grief for a win.

    The point is, Eleusis isn't entirely off-base when it responds to Mhaldor with overwhelming force, or not at all.
     <3 
    Frederich
  • Reyson
    Reyson Member Posts: 808 @ - Epic Achaean
    Except most of these people I've been fighting have been vivifying? If you take any kind of offensive action within a certain time frame, I'm going to assume you're open for business. You can't just mess with people in the morning, then claim you have zero interest in the afternoon. Why am I under obligation to let you go, if you've been causing trouble within the last 24 hours? :/ 
  • Skye
    Skye The Duchess BellatereMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,171 @@ - Legendary Achaean


    >_>                 


    Shirszae
  • Mathilda
    Mathilda Member Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited June 2017
    Reyson said:
    Except most of these people I've been fighting have been vivifying? If you take any kind of offensive action within a certain time frame, I'm going to assume you're open for business. You can't just mess with people in the morning, then claim you have zero interest in the afternoon. Why am I under obligation to let you go, if you've been causing trouble within the last 24 hours? :/ 
    I don't know about you, but in the morning I play Achaea, and then after lunch I go to class. While I can log in and help newbies out even when I'm in the classroom, I can't very well focus enough to PK.

    edit: I'd also like to point out that it goes both ways: if you're not feeling like dealing with Eleusis in the mornings, then you're not obliged to respond to them (or, respond with overwhelming force).
     <3 
  • Reyson
    Reyson Member Posts: 808 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited June 2017
    Nvm, I don't get paid enough to explain this :D 
  • Tahquil
    Tahquil Member Posts: 4,543 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Has it been 3 or 4 days?
  • Cailin
    Cailin Member Posts: 355 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Alrena said:
    The one thing that is absolutely skewed is infamy generation. Druid/Sylvan can vivify island rooms and not even approach infamy. I cleared two of them and reached approaching infamous. Repairing damage generates more infamy than actually damaging? Vivify needs to generate as much infamy as exterming a forest does, and exterming vivification should not generate infamy at all.
    Your point makes complete sense, and I'm sure the admin will fix it.
    Caelan
  • Exxia
    Exxia Member Posts: 257 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited June 2017
    I just want to know why you keep nerfing Necromancy. Forest fighting was already largely one sided for Eleusis. Forest defs (-500 a tick), summon, forestal classes are OP compared to necromancers. Like when is it OUR turn to see cool stuff? 

    Give Frenzy back to Infernals. 

    Clearly this whole inplement was actually to STOP forest fighting and exterminations. There's NO WAY I will exterminate with that essence loss. Grove users can get sunlight back no problem, I HAVE TO KILL PEOPLE FOR HEARTS to get my necro back up and if I'm at 0% it's not happening easily. 

    edit: nerf Eleusis - give red fog damage ticks to enemies of Mhaldor - add infamy to Vivify - lower the damage from forest defs from 500 to 100 - increase necro essence count 10x if no vivified rooms on isle. Take off mana requirements for vivisect.

    To everyone that said that rejuving forests was costly and time consuming, you're only talking about whole forests being rejuving solo, WHICH NEVER HAPPENS, if it does ask on CT for help rejuving - simple fix. ICE IS CHEAP, the rejuv is quick, there is no problem, you're just candy flipping.
  • Cailin
    Cailin Member Posts: 355 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Exxia said:

    To everyone that said that rejuving forests was costly and time consuming, you're only talking about whole forests being rejuving solo
    No, Exxia, we're not. It took a minimum of 1 RL hour for a whole group of people to heal a large exterm (say about 100 rooms). Which has already been said, but I thought I'd go ahead and repeat it. I try to be logical and look at both sides fairly as much as I can, and this is my honest estimate, as best I can remember.
  • Mathilda
    Mathilda Member Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Welcome back, Exxia.
     <3 
    Caelan
  • Krypton
    Krypton shi-KhurenaMember Posts: 2,377 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Exxia said:
    There's NO WAY I will exterminate with that essence loss.
    HALLE-fuckin'-LUJAH!! 
    AhmetShirszaeWicella
  • Nyderrasethi
    Nyderrasethi Member Posts: 91 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Rangor said:
    Alrena said:
    The one thing that is absolutely skewed is infamy generation. Druid/Sylvan can vivify island rooms and not even approach infamy. I cleared two of them and reached approaching infamous. Repairing damage generates more infamy than actually damaging? Vivify needs to generate as much infamy as exterming a forest does, and exterming vivification should not generate infamy at all.
    @Makarios calling the big Boss to see the one post on topic that needs fixing.
    Already stated this earlier and he said he's looking at it
    Rangor
  • Atalkez
    Atalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,483 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Exxia said:
    there is no problem, you're just candy flipping.
    Should read your own advice here boss, Mhaldor is not getting fucked in some unfair way.

    Deucalion has cowardly declined the challenge of Atalkez to engage in mortal combat.

    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • Taryius
    Taryius Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 896 @ - Epic Achaean
    The same points keep being stated by the same people over and over and we have veered long from vivification and extermination...

    The summary of the story is a couple of people in Mhaldor wanted a fight, went into Eleusis looking for one and didn't get it... And that made us sad. You shouldn't condemn someone for attempting to make an even fight for enjoyment on both sides, when we were in Eleusis we were not up against noncoms. 

    People need to stop taking losing as equal to griefing... Mhaldor bashed what, 40 guards in Targossas when you all abandoned the city and in retaliation you guys came in bashed some of our guards and blew two tanks? Didn't hear us complaining then. Its the ebb and flow of war, to actually think we were trying to bankrupt you guys with 40 guards is dumb, if we wanted to actually grief we'd do this on more than one occassion. 

    I don't know what you remember but while I've been in Mhaldor we've gone on two guard killing sprees, one in Targ and one in Eleusis. (okay another one in Cyrene, but that was cause we were just raiding Cyrene and had to kill guards every time, in this same raid Targossas went into Mhaldor and bashed all our guards at the same time).

    But who cares, I'm just an OOC jerk cause i'm mhaldorian. :( 
    Prythe
  • Ankhareoutef
    Ankhareoutef Member Posts: 347 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Taryius said:
    The same points keep being stated by the same people over and over and we have veered long from vivification and extermination...

    The summary of the story is a couple of people in Mhaldor wanted a fight, went into Eleusis looking for one and didn't get it... And that made us sad. You shouldn't condemn someone for attempting to make an even fight for enjoyment on both sides, when we were in Eleusis we were not up against noncoms. 

    People need to stop taking losing as equal to griefing... Mhaldor bashed what, 40 guards in Targossas when you all abandoned the city and in retaliation you guys came in bashed some of our guards and blew two tanks? Didn't hear us complaining then. Its the ebb and flow of war, to actually think we were trying to bankrupt you guys with 40 guards is dumb, if we wanted to actually grief we'd do this on more than one occassion. 

    I don't know what you remember but while I've been in Mhaldor we've gone on two guard killing sprees, one in Targ and one in Eleusis. (okay another one in Cyrene, but that was cause we were just raiding Cyrene and had to kill guards every time, in this same raid Targossas went into Mhaldor and bashed all our guards at the same time).

    But who cares, I'm just an OOC jerk cause i'm mhaldorian. :( 
    Yea, I'll second this. Mhaldor is normally pretty good with us. Even when they come at us with huge numbers, they haven't bitched about us using guards. I like fighting Mhaldor.
    Kiet
  • Naoma
    Naoma Member Posts: 69 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited June 2017
    Reyson said:
    To clarify, we'd extermed a different room, they forestbound, and it was only when we were moving to get our ducks in a row that Mycen started worldburn. 

    I find the line of 'don't exterm on a shrine' a bit funny, coming from Naoma, because when I pointed it out, she:

    A ) Claimed she didn't know it was done until I told her;
    B ) Claimed she has no control whatsoever over what other people do;
    C ) Claimed Mycen kinda went rogue on that one and worldburned without her team knowing/asking her to.

    So now, getting the 'lol your fault' answer as if it was planned all along and totally what they'd wanted to do, a few days later after the fact, is pretty laughable. But that's forums for you. 
    I didn't know nor did I say not to exterm on a shrine, but I did say "Don't turtle up on a shrine." I don't know what forestbind is like on the other side cause I am a druid. So the lol your fault is YOUR fault. Wb sucks, but I didn't know til you messaged me. It might have been mentioned in party but I was trying to get out of Ghands. If you want to classlead forestbinding expect there to be classleads on weakening gh 
  • Aegoth
    Aegoth Member Posts: 2,936 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    lol comparing forestbind to ghands. These kids... smh
    Kiet
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