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  • PuxiPuxi Member Posts: 527 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Atalkez said:
    Puxi said:
    I agree that there definitely needs be some balancing on AoE skills/talismans. The problem is walking that fine line of making sure a smaller, more skilled/cohesive group can kill larger numbers, but also not have 1-2 abilities they can spam to achieve it.
    Why should 5 people be able to kill 12?

    Imo, group differences like that, if you want to overcome that then you should have to work extremely hard and do vast amounts of prior planning, and have it all work perfectly. Not just drop 1 thing, use another thing, lean on damage/aoe alias until entire room is wiped.

    Realisitically, 5 people should never win that group fight, regardless of skill, without some very serious breaks going their way.
    I think we are on the same page here. I don't think a group of 5 should be able to kill a group of 12 unless the group of 5 can somehow pick off or separate them. Sorry if my previous post insinuated otherwise.
    AtalkezFarrahVender
  • KiskanKiskan Member Posts: 157 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2016
    Hrm.  I was considering logging in because I kind of uh, don't have a game at the moment.  I will consider it again when these crucible things are deleted or repurposed :)  I have a pretty good idea of how hard it is for an Atalkez/Rangor (or even Farrah *bro-girl swoon*) type to herd some cats against vastly more skilled players and pull a win in the first place.  
  • SobriquetSobriquet Member Posts: 2,288 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Crucible use was a step too far in my enjoyment when it came to raids. Not been around since. 
    image
  • ProficyProficy Member Posts: 371 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Easy fixes.... only one cruicble can be layed in a room at once... highlight the person dropping it.. once they die... it fires only once and then you gon on with the mass group fight... if they are low enough health to where one area damage hit and one crucible hit kills them. Then yeah i do think they are to low level to be engaging in that kind of conflict as anything other than a liability.

    When i go to fight another force i take reliable people not mass numbers. If i say i have 5 people vs there 5 people without taking into account of all the factors.... then i am failing as there leader.

    Just my thoughts on the situation. But i am big on not wanting people to just be able to create a char and be on par with everyone... Gotta put that work in! Those who did work to get things like dragon and such, deserve the differential status.
  • PrythePrythe Member Posts: 472 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Proficy said:
    Easy fixes.... only one cruicble can be layed in a room at once... highlight the person dropping it.. once they die... it fires only once and then you gon on with the mass group fight... if they are low enough health to where one area damage hit and one crucible hit kills them. Then yeah i do think they are to low level to be engaging in that kind of conflict as anything other than a liability.

    When i go to fight another force i take reliable people not mass numbers. If i say i have 5 people vs there 5 people without taking into account of all the factors.... then i am failing as there leader.

    Just my thoughts on the situation. But i am big on not wanting people to just be able to create a char and be on par with everyone... Gotta put that work in! Those who did work to get things like dragon and such, deserve the differential status.
    I am not sure that getting to "dragon" takes quite as much work as it did when we played Achaea by walking barefoot in the snow, uphill, both ways.


    - To love another person is to see the face of G/d
    - Let me get my hat and my knife
    - It's your apple, take a bite
    - Don't dream it ... be it


    Liyane
  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,332 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Proficy said:
    Easy fixes.... only one cruicble can be layed in a room at once... highlight the person dropping it.. once they die... it fires only once and then you gon on with the mass group fight... if they are low enough health to where one area damage hit and one crucible hit kills them. Then yeah i do think they are to low level to be engaging in that kind of conflict as anything other than a liability.

    When i go to fight another force i take reliable people not mass numbers. If i say i have 5 people vs there 5 people without taking into account of all the factors.... then i am failing as there leader.

    Just my thoughts on the situation. But i am big on not wanting people to just be able to create a char and be on par with everyone... Gotta put that work in! Those who did work to get things like dragon and such, deserve the differential status.

    Raiding often requires defenders to be willing to engage with subpar groups for the sake of fun and conflict. So while yes dragons should be (and are) stronger than non-dragons, making anyone who doesn't meet X standard a liability is bad for the practice of raiding - it encourages not defending at all, since raiders are generally stronger than defenders on an individual basis.
    ExelethrilKiskanLiyane
  • ProficyProficy Member Posts: 371 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Irl scenario.. if a city gets stormed 80% of the people are supposed to die, hide.. or do what they can. Not everyone is a warrior or combatant but can do there part to help out, WITH the expectation that they are more than likely going to die.. having those willing to engage knowing they are giving themselves to a greater group effort, its what draws the line from people living in your walls and citizens.
    So yes i do expect that initial discouragement to be there for those that are engaging out of there experience/ability group..... 2 types of people, those who take an ass kicking and say screw this im done and those that get there ass kicked and say i need to step my game up. Your kind of mindset says its ok to be the first #quality>quantity
    Vender
  • MathildaMathilda Member Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited December 2016
    With the effect of crucible, midbies actually hurt their own team. It's not "join, you will die, but at least you gave a couple of crucial affs or a few damage hits that helped us." It's now "join, you die, and you took down half our team with you."

    These talismans have effectively throttled combat to the end-game population. If you want to join, better be dragon or be loaded with artifacts.

    Now, that in itself may not be a bad thing for Achaea's bottom line. It pushes people to grind more in the game or spend money for quick credits. IRE is a business, after all.

    Edit: I shiuld clarify, I am not in favour of the mechanics. But I do understand why it's a big draw to have these things from a business stand point.
     <3 
  • SarathaiSarathai Member Posts: 2,139 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Achaea raids aren't really like cities being stormed. It's more akin to a small group of terrorists attempting to plant and detonate a bomb while the city police/military has to kill them all before they can blow it.
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



    VenderLiyane
  • KeneanungKeneanung Member Posts: 610 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Proficy said:
    Irl scenario.. if a city gets stormed 80% of the people are supposed to die, hide.. or do what they can. Not everyone is a warrior or combatant but can do there part to help out, WITH the expectation that they are more than likely going to die.. having those willing to engage knowing they are giving themselves to a greater group effort, its what draws the line from people living in your walls and citizens.
    So yes i do expect that initial discouragement to be there for those that are engaging out of there experience/ability group..... 2 types of people, those who take an ass kicking and say screw this im done and those that get there ass kicked and say i need to step my game up. Your kind of mindset says its ok to be the first #quality>quantity
    This is a game for enjoyment, not (much) to do with reality... You can't juggle hundreds of vials, corpses, armour and still fight hand to hand IRL either.
    Also, remember that adventurers are special. A city consists of much more than just the adventurers or even the visible (notable?) denizens. So it's probably the case that 80% of a citie's population goes into hiding on a raid.
    And third... While I agree that quality should have a certain advantage over quantity (and it will have even without crucible and the such), I agree also with @Farrah that raiders should be able to to make the advantage smaller by using a larger force. Otherwise the defending side will always get the butt end of the deal. Raiders force their enjoyment on the defenders, but defenders would have a hard time to take some enjoyment out themselves.
    Liyane
  • SenoskeSenoske Member Posts: 162 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited December 2016
    Proficy said:
    Irl scenario.. if a city gets stormed 80% of the people are supposed to die, hide.. or do what they can. Not everyone is a warrior or combatant but can do there part to help out, WITH the expectation that they are more than likely going to die.. having those willing to engage knowing they are giving themselves to a greater group effort, its what draws the line from people living in your walls and citizens.
    So yes i do expect that initial discouragement to be there for those that are engaging out of there experience/ability group..... 2 types of people, those who take an ass kicking and say screw this im done and those that get there ass kicked and say i need to step my game up. Your kind of mindset says its ok to be the first #quality>quantity
    This is the opposite of what you want. Getting beat down by people repeatedly is frustrating, especially when you literally hurt your own team for being there at all.

    If it wasn't for my experience for pvping back in the day I'd hate today's combat. There's so much knowledge, scripting, and artifacts that go into it that it makes most people who aren't as well versed into understanding things give up. I've had to hammer on @Naoma multiple times not to give up because she feels helpless in a raid because she didn't know what to do (She's gotten better, but still got things to work on and arties to buy). I'm sure I'm not the only one who has had to spend time trying to boost people up from giving up. Having the mindset of just "git gud" doesn't help in a game that sells power and some people don't have the funds to buy said power, nor have the means IG yet to work their way into buying that power.

    The pursuit of getting better at combat alone is challenging. Especially if you aren't in the pvp clique where knowledge is actually shared readily.

    The crucible shouldn't be doing as much as it does, end of story. It's a dumb mechanic that takes no skill and gives entirely too much reward for no skill.
    Liyane
  • KarrenKarren Member Posts: 33 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Senoske said:
    Proficy said:
    Irl scenario.. if a city gets stormed 80% of the people are supposed to die, hide.. or do what they can. Not everyone is a warrior or combatant but can do there part to help out, WITH the expectation that they are more than likely going to die.. having those willing to engage knowing they are giving themselves to a greater group effort, its what draws the line from people living in your walls and citizens.
    So yes i do expect that initial discouragement to be there for those that are engaging out of there experience/ability group..... 2 types of people, those who take an ass kicking and say screw this im done and those that get there ass kicked and say i need to step my game up. Your kind of mindset says its ok to be the first #quality>quantity
    This is the opposite of what you want. Getting beat down by people repeatedly is frustrating, especially when you literally hurt your own team for being there at all.

    If it wasn't for my experience for pvping back in the day I'd hate today's combat. There's so much knowledge, scripting, and artifacts that go into it that it makes most people who aren't as well versed into understanding things give up. I've had to hammer on @Naoma multiple times not to give up because she feels helpless in a raid because she didn't know what to do (She's gotten better, but still got things to work on and arties to buy). I'm sure I'm not the only one who has had to spend time trying to boost people up from giving up. Having the mindset of just "git gud" doesn't help in a game that sells power and some people don't have the funds to buy said power, nor have the means IG yet to work their way into buying that power.

    The pursuit of getting better at combat alone is challenging. Especially if you aren't in the pvp clique where knowledge is actually shared readily.

    The crucible shouldn't be doing as much as it does, end of story. It's a dumb mechanic that takes no skill and gives entirely too much reward for no skill.

    I couldn't disagree more. Combat is challenging, and it does require a lot of knowledge, but that's what makes Achaea so fun. There's always something new to learn and always ways to improve! It's definitely frustrating, but way more rewarding than playing xbox or some other game.  Also, saying crucible requires no skill is a wrong. It requires skill to know when to use it, and to stay alive after you drop it. The issue people have with crucible is that you can spam AoE for massive damage against all targets in a room, and Mak already said he'll address that. As for pvp cliques, I've asked just about everyone for advice and 99% of people who pk a lot are willing to talk shop with you. All you have to do is ask!

    The paywall is frustrating but saying you _have_ to have artefacts to be effective in group is simply not true. Look at @Krizal, @Emilea, @Lylith, @Cailan, @Kasa, @Armali, @Mathilda, all of who are extremely effective and have very few arties.
    AegothBannShirszae
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,668 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Karren said:
    Senoske said:
    Proficy said:
    Irl scenario.. if a city gets stormed 80% of the people are supposed to die, hide.. or do what they can. Not everyone is a warrior or combatant but can do there part to help out, WITH the expectation that they are more than likely going to die.. having those willing to engage knowing they are giving themselves to a greater group effort, its what draws the line from people living in your walls and citizens.
    So yes i do expect that initial discouragement to be there for those that are engaging out of there experience/ability group..... 2 types of people, those who take an ass kicking and say screw this im done and those that get there ass kicked and say i need to step my game up. Your kind of mindset says its ok to be the first #quality>quantity
    This is the opposite of what you want. Getting beat down by people repeatedly is frustrating, especially when you literally hurt your own team for being there at all.

    If it wasn't for my experience for pvping back in the day I'd hate today's combat. There's so much knowledge, scripting, and artifacts that go into it that it makes most people who aren't as well versed into understanding things give up. I've had to hammer on @Naoma multiple times not to give up because she feels helpless in a raid because she didn't know what to do (She's gotten better, but still got things to work on and arties to buy). I'm sure I'm not the only one who has had to spend time trying to boost people up from giving up. Having the mindset of just "git gud" doesn't help in a game that sells power and some people don't have the funds to buy said power, nor have the means IG yet to work their way into buying that power.

    The pursuit of getting better at combat alone is challenging. Especially if you aren't in the pvp clique where knowledge is actually shared readily.

    The crucible shouldn't be doing as much as it does, end of story. It's a dumb mechanic that takes no skill and gives entirely too much reward for no skill.

    I couldn't disagree more. Combat is challenging, and it does require a lot of knowledge, but that's what makes Achaea so fun. There's always something new to learn and always ways to improve! It's definitely frustrating, but way more rewarding than playing xbox or some other game.  Also, saying crucible requires no skill is a wrong. It requires skill to know when to use it, and to stay alive after you drop it. The issue people have with crucible is that you can spam AoE for massive damage against all targets in a room, and Mak already said he'll address that. As for pvp cliques, I've asked just about everyone for advice and 99% of people who pk a lot are willing to talk shop with you. All you have to do is ask!

    The paywall is frustrating but saying you _have_ to have artefacts to be effective in group is simply not true. Look at @Krizal, @Emilea, @Lylith, @Cailan, @Kasa, @Armali, @Mathilda, all of who are extremely effective and have very few arties.
    even @Kythra and @Alrena have no arties, and they are two of Mhaldor's top combatants
    KarrenPuxi
  • LylithLylith Member Posts: 28 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    The challenge is part of the fun, as is, at least for me, pushing myself against anyone/anything. Sure, frustration happens from time to time but the more you play, the more you learn.
    Bann
  • DridenDriden Member Posts: 410 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    The idea that combat mechanics or knowledge is hidden I find to be flat out laughable at best a lie at worst. As a mhaldorian for two rl years now I frequently ask @Atalkez
    @Farrah @Dunn @Jhui @Kasa for advice and knowledge. I have never been turned down for not being in some combat clique. 
    Cooper said:
    This is one of the worst forms of special snowflake RP I've ever seen. Thanks for going to another city to do it!
    Caelan
  • AlrenaAlrena Member Posts: 647 @ - Epic Achaean
    I think it's been stated clearly that it's the ridiculous AoE damage that is the main issue. Crucible and miasma pushed this over the top for sure, but if AoE gets nerfed or deleted then crucibles won't be an easy win button anymore. I think they could use a little damage nerf though, the combination of the two still hurts far too much. Having a sip ring or not having one becomes a big difference in every fight then, more so than before.

    I disagree that numbers shouldn't be able to beat fewer, more skilled opponents. I have won plenty of engagements as an Eleusian because I had motivated people who listened and worked together on a basic level. You don't need arties or dragon level for it, you don't need top combatants. You just have to work together and use your skills together. But currently this isn't possible with crucible easily wiping out a group dying to chaosrays or shindo lightning or thornspray.

    I am definitely not a fan of all these talisman sets that continue giving one advantage to the next. Talismans were said to be a PvE reward with little to no pvp impact. Then all these promotion talisman sets... death's cape, lvl 3 mana/health regen, instant respawns on demand, crucible, miasma,... I won't say they're breaking the game. But they do give a tremendous advantage. In the next Great Hunt, having one of those capes and not having one is going to be a big difference. Let alone if the respawn item works.

    I still love playing Achaea, I still enjoy combat. But I am not a fan of these talisman sets at all.
    image
    ShirszaeSobriquetLiyane
  • NazihkNazihk Member Posts: 993 @ - Epic Achaean
    Honestly, my single biggest problem with crucibles is the sheer amount of RNG they inject into a fight. I've been in fights that were won and lost because of a completely unrelated death halfway across the world. Somebody died in a duel halfway across the world, which killed somebody at low health, which killed somebody at medium health, which killed me, which killed...

    I feel like a general AOE nerf would fix a lot of the problems with it by making it harder to proc so many simultaneous blasts, but I'd still like it to be based on deaths in the room with it instead of just on general deathsight. 
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