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Auto-following target calls is bad, somehow, I guess

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  • AylekAylek Member Posts: 170 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    It's easy to tinker by stepping away from the fight, and fight by holding down a single key as it makes decisions for you, it's completely different to manually entering abilities/allowing for entering the wrong aliases and what not.

    Automation is fine if you enjoy it, but never on par with manual fighting in my opinion.
  • RomRom Member Posts: 523 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited September 2016
    I'll bite I guess. What if you export your scripts and give them to some nice newbie who flips the auto switch and beats someone without knowing what happened on their screen? I don't think who made the offense is important, in the same sense that athletes aren't allowed to create their own performance enhancing drugs to use (since you mentioned you'd be playing on a level that "few others can truly aspire to").

    I don't believe Cooper was trying to discredit what is means to be a knowledgeable coder, but was referring to the actual game itself. It simply is less skillful to have anything be automated than otherwise, because it is sometimes forgotten that our clients are not actually part of the game at all.  
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    CooperLelumAereidhna
  • CynlaelCynlael Member Posts: 3,257 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2016
    #triggered @Anedhel

    Cooper is also right. Maybe could have worded it better, but was right nonetheless. The skillful part is being able to manually adapt on the fly when the situation calls for it, not rely entirely on a script to do that for you. You keep up with that 'lol don't care what you say' though, it obviously is working.

  • BannBann Member Posts: 391 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I used to com in Aetolia, but I don't anymore.

    I, personally, feel that the level of automation there has severely squelched what fun I used to get from PK. I can login to my Aetolia profile, write a script that will pretty much kill anyone who stands around for it, turn it on on some poor sap, go take a poop and watch the free xp scroll up on my screen.

    That's not saying that coding the AI doesn't take skill or anything like that, because for a while there I had a loooot of fun with watching it beat people. After long enough, though, it just...wasn't fun anymore. When I think about all the really fun times I had in that game, 90% of those memories are of times before I had all that fancy schmancy AI and were times when I as a player outwitted and beat others. I don't really remember 'Yeah, man, that one time I beat Soandso with my AI, that was sooooo dope.'

    I'd hate to see something like that happen for you, too. Maybe it won't. If you like coding stuff like that, do it. Have fun. It's a game.

  • ReisenReisen Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited September 2016
    @Aylek
    Okay, so... manualing is better because you have the chance to mess up? Why is being able to mess up better? Who actually wants to mess up?

    @Rom
    I generally don't give my code out to other people (except for a couple freebie snippets) and when I do I make sure they understand it before they use it. There is never going to be a single instance of anyone using any of my code without knowing what it does and how it works, mostly because nobody else is going to have my code.

    @Cynlael
    Who's more skillful: the person who can do something decently, or the person who can create a tool to do it better?

    @Dunn
    lolno. I did a lot more than call for help. Maybe you would have seen it if you weren't busy spamming duanathar or dying to guards.

    @Jovolo

    1. I could if I wanted to. Anyone could if they wanted to. It's a lot of effort, but it's not impossible.

    2. If something goes wrong, you fix it. Trial and error. Throw out the things that don't work, beef up the things that do. The code gets better over time, not worse.

    3. I always have my script window up during a fight, and if it's necessary to tweak things manually, I do it. It's not "complex script". I'm not talking trying to hack the Matrix, here. I'm talking about shifting a couple lines around in a table I already have up in the window. It's not that hard to step a couple rooms away, click a couple times, and go back in.

    4. Nobody's claiming superiority. The inflammatory responses come from people getting upset over automation, nothing more. I really don't care about the 'established tradition' of being a hotshot manualer or whatever, so I'm really not bothered when people say "But manualing is better somehow!" ᖍ(ツ)ᖌ
    I had a funny thing here. It's gone now.
  • ReisenReisen Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited September 2016
    @Aegoth
    1. Being able to code an offensive system requires as much understanding of the game mechanics as being able to do it manually.
    2. If I wanted to play a game that requires muscle reflexes, I'd play Call of Duty or Overwatch. In fact, I already do, and I have plenty of fun doing that. But in IRE games, I can put my critical thinking abilities to use by coding.
    3.  Coding a system necessitates that you be able to create new and unique strategies on the fly; otherwise, you'd never kill anybody.
    4. Again, coding a system requires understanding of combat abilities. You can't make an offense if you don't know how the class works.
    5. I'm showcasing myself and what I'm capable of by creating a system. I'm capable of coding. If you beat my system, you beat me.
    I had a funny thing here. It's gone now.
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,203 @@ - Legendary Achaean
     How can you code on the fly?
  • ReisenReisen Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited September 2016
    Tahquil said:
     How can you code on the fly?
    Okay, let's say you're fighting someone, and the aff queue you're using isn't sticking on them for whatever reason. You walk out a few rooms, bring up the script window, which is already open on your class functions folder, and go to the table that has your affs, and change the order around or whatever you need to do to make things work. Get back in combat, see if the changes worked. If they didn't, step out again, repeat. Of course, you need good situational awareness for this -- I have my own curing and some enemy attacks (still getting messages for these) all triggered to play sounds, so even if I'm not looking at the screen I can still be aware of whenever I'm getting attacked and respond appropriately. And I have a HUGE database of sounds, mostly ripped from old MMOs and RPGs like Diablo and Ultima Online, so they're theme-appropriate and unique to every attack/ability.
    I had a funny thing here. It's gone now.
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,659 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2016
    Reisen said:
    @Aegoth
    1. Being able to code an offensive system requires as much understanding of the game mechanics as being able to do it manually.
    2. If I wanted to play a game that requires muscle reflexes, I'd play Call of Duty or Overwatch. In fact, I already do, and I have plenty of fun doing that. But in IRE games, I can put my critical thinking abilities to use by coding.
    3.  Coding a system necessitates that you be able to create new and unique strategies on the fly; otherwise, you'd never kill anybody.
    4. Again, coding a system requires understanding of combat abilities. You can't make an offense if you don't know how the class works.
    5. I'm showcasing myself and what I'm capable of by creating a system. I'm capable of coding. If you beat my system, you beat me.
    While this may hold true for you personally, it is far more often the case where automation actually decreases your combat prowess I need only look at anyone in Eleusis. They -all- use automation and, with a scant few rare exceptions, they can't do diddly shit in group combat if their raid caller gets taken out, as well as them all being trash in 1v1. They have 0 incentive to actually improve, because someone else will just do it for them, or a new system tweak will come out. Relying on automation is just bad news bears
    Reisen
  • ReisenReisen Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited September 2016
    The difference is that those people aren't coding their own systems. They're using someone else's, and have no incentive or desire to pick it apart to see how it works or improve upon it. You really can't equate those kinds of people with someone who codes, maintains, updates, and improves their own offense. What you're saying is that relying on automation is bad if you're not using your own code, which I 100% agree with.
    I had a funny thing here. It's gone now.
  • KarrenKarren Member Posts: 33 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    If Reisen has fun writing her own offense, I don't really see the issue. Fighting against a script can be fun, or you can just lump her in the group of people you don't fight (like jesters). Fighting against auto-LoS is just plain boring, and I can't imagine they have very much fun doing it either.
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,203 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2016

    Reisen said:
    Tahquil said:
     How can you code on the fly?
    Okay, let's say you're fighting someone, and the aff queue you're using isn't sticking on them for whatever reason. You walk out a few rooms, bring up the script window, which is already open on your class functions folder, and go to the table that has your affs, and change the order around or whatever you need to do to make things work. Get back in combat, see if the changes worked. If they didn't, step out again, repeat. Of course, you need good situational awareness for this -- I have my own curing and some enemy attacks (still getting messages for these) all triggered to play sounds, so even if I'm not looking at the screen I can still be aware of whenever I'm getting attacked and respond appropriately. And I have a HUGE database of sounds, mostly ripped from old MMOs and RPGs like Diablo and Ultima Online, so they're theme-appropriate and unique to every attack/ability.
    That's not on the fly. That's having to stop and walk out of the room an reflect on what you've done. On the fly is like "OMG I WASN'T EXPECTING HIM TO GROW TENTACLES OUT OF HIS ASS. BWWWAH BWAAAH BWAAAH BATTLESTATIONS AND PREPARE THE HOLY WATER." (edit: so in like 1-2 seconds)
    BannAhmetAereidhnaSirrion
  • RyzethRyzeth Member Posts: 1,105 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited September 2016
    This thread is seriously all sorts of triggering. Most of it sounds like a load of hogwash. If anything.
  • SarathaiSarathai Member Posts: 2,139 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Some people seem to be running off a script, maybe.
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



    ShirszaeAereidhnaSirrionKyrra
  • ReisenReisen Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Tahquil said:

    That's not on the fly. That's having to stop and walk out of the room an reflect on what you've done. On the fly is like "OMG I WASN'T EXPECTING HIM TO GROW TENTACLES OUT OF HIS ASS. BWWWAH BWAAAH BWAAAH BATTLESTATIONS AND PREPARE THE HOLY WATER." (edit: so in like 1-2 seconds)
    Sure it is. You're in the middle of combat, you stop for a second to make a change, then go right back in. Sorry it doesn't fit your personal definition.
    I had a funny thing here. It's gone now.
  • RyzethRyzeth Member Posts: 1,105 @ - Epic Achaean
    Less talk more proving your oh so amazing claims.

    Lol'd @dunn
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,203 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Oh, it's not just a personal definition but shared by quite a few (maybe the majority) of the community. On the fly means nearly instantaeous here. I am sorry your personal definition does match others.
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,659 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I bet she could hand your ass to you doing DOR educe salt, Ryzeth. You don't get a high horse here, bub
  • VenderVender Member Posts: 288 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Reisen said:
    Tahquil said:
     How can you code on the fly?
    Okay, let's say you're fighting someone, and the aff queue you're using isn't sticking on them for whatever reason. You walk out a few rooms, bring up the script window, which is already open on your class functions folder, and go to the table that has your affs, and change the order around or whatever you need to do to make things work. Get back in combat, see if the changes worked. If they didn't, step out again, repeat. Of course, you need good situational awareness for this -- I have my own curing and some enemy attacks (still getting messages for these) all triggered to play sounds, so even if I'm not looking at the screen I can still be aware of whenever I'm getting attacked and respond appropriately. And I have a HUGE database of sounds, mostly ripped from old MMOs and RPGs like Diablo and Ultima Online, so they're theme-appropriate and unique to every attack/ability.
    see this might work in aetolia but combat here is not the same as combat there. you can and will die that quickly here. also, you've been spoonfed in aetolia when it comes to tracking because every cure balance cures affliction in a specified order. your system knows exactly what your opponent cured 100% of the time. in imperian, there were no cure orders but there were plenty of afflictions with 3rd party cure messages you could rely on to track dirty.

    achaea is designed in such a way the the human observer should be able to beat a good system if he or she is experienced, focus and aware.

    i'm an auto person myself, but i do recognize there are times where something is better left to be manual. not because i couldn't auto it but because sometimes just making 3 aliases is faster and dirtier than building a system with checks and balances.

    and back to the real topic, you mentioned the reason you prefer auto target is because you don't know how to code a GUI that can relay important information in an accessible way. now in this thread you say that your solution to the possible problems with using auto is to turn off your auto target. but that puts you back in the situation where you are having a hard time picking out names from the room and resorting to scrolling the main console and the cycle repeats and you as a player never improve.

    you can keep fixating on one method of play or you can diversify. i know the best players do.
    it's frustration that creates desire
    not the other way around
    unless you let it
    baby, I'll let it
    AegothAereidhna
  • RyzethRyzeth Member Posts: 1,105 @ - Epic Achaean
    Aegoth said:
    I bet she could hand your ass to you doing DOR educe salt, Ryzeth. You don't get a high horse here, bub
    Bro I locked you inside your own retardation when you tried jumping me during bandersnatch lol. Don't you start.
  • ReisenReisen Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited September 2016
    Vender said

    giant incomprehensible wall of text


    @Ryzeth
    Sure, but I have a bit more prep work to do before I take on the big names. Aff tracker isn't quite fully functional yet & it will probably take a week or so to hit Dragon and finish transing skills (need enhancement/bolster, that's important!)

    Not that I'm really looking forward to being a dragon. Some of the skills look useful but I really don't conceptually like the idea of transforming into a dragon so I probably won't use it.
    I had a funny thing here. It's gone now.
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,659 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You had Lala dstabbing for you too. And let's not forget that i had you semi-locked first before you ran to her. If you wanna talk big, get good first
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,203 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aegoth said:
    I bet she could hand your ass to you doing DOR educe salt, Ryzeth. You don't get a high horse here, bub
    Don't give out my super elite Alchemy strats. Not cool man, not cool.. :/
  • RyzethRyzeth Member Posts: 1,105 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited September 2016
    No I didn't.  https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/516be9cc if you need a refresher. Literally easiest fight of my life.

    Next. On a side note I love the complete deflection of vender's comments keep em coming.
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,659 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2016
    Shrug. That just shows how good apostate is in ret. You command-stacked to get off paralysis past stupidity (if you'd notice where you wailed right before the breached) which is a bug anyway. You also forgot the first part where you almost died to me. You still don't get a high horse, really. Everyone gets lucky once. Consistency is the key thing, which you don't have.

    Also, if you wanna go ahead and switch back to apostate, i'll hand your ass to you in no time flat, kid. Let's do this
    Reisen
This discussion has been closed.