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The old House promotion rules

ZukoZuko Member Posts: 730 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
Hey all! 

Just wanted to get some thoughts on the way House promotions currently work. 

I like it a lot better for the most part in comparison to the old system. But just now, I have a HR 3 member as far as requirements go, who has earned so many House favours that they are now HR5. From a HoN perspective, this is confusing as hell. 

In the old system, once a HR 3 had been Housefavoured to four, there was a * next to their name, meaning they could not advance until promoted (full sponsorship). 

I'm all for House favours and recognizing those under House rank 4, but it would be nice if perhaps they didn't actually count towards a promotion once you are HR 4. 

Thoughts on this? Would this conflict with your House rank structure?
Kandra

Comments

  • KandraKandra Member Posts: 189 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Some solution would be really nice.

    When it first changed my house tried a few ideas, like abandoning the whole lesson-plan-for-novices thing and just going by house rank and probation until the initiation, but someone objected to that. Tried keeping the lesson plan and being determined not to favour anyone under hr5, which was deemed acceptable by everyone, but then when you want to favour someone you must feel they deserve a favour and so screw the policy this person is special... soooo that didn't work either. It didn't work multiple times. Right now we're at individually restricting getfavoursoff on every single person who joins the house, and sending them a message or tell explaining why this is happening and no it isn't personal or punishment or anything like that, and this is how to get past this stage. I really hate starting them off with a potentially negative feeling though.
    ZukoDochitha
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 4,844 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If they're getting HF to a rank, surely they earned the rank?

    Sounds like you're attempting to hold people back unnecessarily!


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    PraxidesShirszaeAegothKyrra
  • ZukoZuko Member Posts: 730 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Kandra said:
    Some solution would be really nice.

    When it first changed my house tried a few ideas, like abandoning the whole lesson-plan-for-novices thing and just going by house rank and probation until the initiation, but someone objected to that. Tried keeping the lesson plan and being determined not to favour anyone under hr5, which was deemed acceptable by everyone, but then when you want to favour someone you must feel they deserve a favour and so screw the policy this person is special... soooo that didn't work either. It didn't work multiple times. Right now we're at individually restricting getfavoursoff on every single person who joins the house, and sending them a message or tell explaining why this is happening and no it isn't personal or punishment or anything like that, and this is how to get past this stage. I really hate starting them off with a potentially negative feeling though.
    Yeah I dont want to go that route. 

    It would  be nice if they could get the favours below HR 5, just wouldnt count towards rank.
    Kandra
  • KandraKandra Member Posts: 189 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Atalkez said:
    If they're getting HF to a rank, surely they earned the rank?

    Sounds like you're attempting to hold people back unnecessarily!
    I agree, which is why using probation to be the difference between initiated and uninitiated was brought up (and shot down) first. It makes sense in one way to me, because you wouldn't want someone favoured up to hr5 who wasn't initiated and having access to all the same house privs as the initiated. The whole holding them back thing sucks, is negative, and that's kind of what we're bitching about, I think.
  • ZukoZuko Member Posts: 730 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Well, it takes like 2-3 House favours to go from HR3-5. So just because they performed a good sermon (part of their reqs), been consistently leading prayer, and have been doing a great job defending, does not make them a full member of the House.

    Sure, they should get recognized for it, but sometimes they are HF'd for stuff not related to the House.
  • ZukoZuko Member Posts: 730 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Atalkez said:
    Zuko said:
    Well, it takes like 2-3 House favours to go from HR3-5. So just because they performed a good sermon (part of their reqs), been consistently leading prayer, and have been doing a great job defending, does not make them a full member of the House.

    Sure, they should get recognized for it, but sometimes they are HF'd for stuff not related to the House.
    Why does that not make them a full member?

    Because they haven't done an essay or their paperwork isn't in order? They're not lvl 80?

    I'm not a fan of arbitrary  requirements. Show motivation and initiative, get rewarded. Shouldn't be held back over something small when they obviously are doing good things.

    If anything this is more of a "passing HF out like candy" issue more than a mechanical one.

    Why are you HF for something that is part of recqs, etc.
    Its sort of a candy issue, but I cant control everything.

    On the other hand, she's worked hard and earned them. We wouldn't want to not reward her.

    "Arbitrary requirements", as many people that want to be hipsters and go against them, serve a purpose.

    It comes down to RP, understanding House culture, and what is expected of you. 

    Its up to you to make the requirements interesting and not just there for the sake of requirements.
    Vansittart
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Atalkez said:
    If they're getting HF to a rank, surely they earned the rank?

    Sounds like you're attempting to hold people back unnecessarily!
    Except that House rank, itself, is meaningless, and favours are about the worst way imaginable to judge "advancement" in a House. House Rank doesn't confer actual authority, just hard-coded house privileges, which you usually bypass via House positions/aideships anyway, and which is sometimes its own liability--perhaps you don't want every HR7 to be probating people. And favours are subjective to the point of uselessness in terms of reflecting how useful you are to the House. Favours aren't about what you know or what you've accomplished, it's who you know and who is paying attention.

    What I've found House rank to be most useful for, in all Houses I've been in, is to judge how far along someone is in House advancement tasks, prior to reaching HR5. Once they reach 5, they're full members, so sure, go nuts, race to 15 via favours. But given most Houses have specific tasks they want you to complete to advance to full member, I find it extremely convenient to be able to check HW, see an HR2, HR3, and HR5 and say "Okay, I have a novice, a member, and a full member online right now," and be confident about where those individuals are in their training.

    I'd honestly like an option, as a House, to choose whether HR3 and HR5 are gated or not. I loved the implementation of HOUSE PROMOTE so we can move people up at will, but removing those HR3 and HR5 gates at the same time was a pretty big inconvenience given how both of my Houses have used rank to track member progress.


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    ShirszaeAereidhna
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,304 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You can certainly get HF'd for actions that don't translate to additional House Rank. You have a set of requirements you have to meet to advance to the next Rank, which usually include things like level, understanding of House Ethos, cooperation with the other Houses, etc. You could get HF'd for a variety of things, like leading a hunt that brings in a lot of gold for the House, being involved in an admin driven event, and tons of other things. The HF system, at least at the 1-5 level, should provide benefits which don't include advancing in HR. Potentially 1-10, I would say.
    image
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 4,844 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Hey thanks for giving a great sermon, dying 10 times and not complaining during that raid, running to help defend our shrines, and that conversation we had on the tenets was great. Unfortunately your form  for sponsorship was not stamped correctly and your essay needs revised. Therefore I know you're hr5 but until the things are finished you're going to be treated like a hr3. Keep up the good work!

    Sounds counter productive.

    Arbitrary requirements for the sake of having something set in stone does not have a place, imo. But keep holding people back over essays or whatever it is, you probably won't get what you want out of your newbies!


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    PraxidesTaelItorvi
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Seftin said:
    Change your reward mechanism. Show gratitude by giving them an item and making it non-decay or something. A house ring/coolthinginsertedhere over a housefavor. Make a post about them or something.
    Private: Y   HideMark: Y
    This design cannot be shared. It has a passcode of 0
    This is a jewellery design.
    This item cannot be used for falconry.
    Type: medallion  Comms: silver 1  Crafting Fee: 7790
    This pattern requires NO gems.
    Appearance (short_desc)
    a medallion of jesterly achievement
    Dropped (long_desc)
    A well-polished silver medallion has been left here.
    Examined (extended_desc)
    This polished silver medallion is shaped as a large sovereign would be, with a smooth, rounded edge 
    connecting its two faces. On the front side of the medallion, the profile of a young human wearing a 
    jester's cap has been carved into the silver in bas-relief, shaped with a mischievous grin leading 
    into a heavy dimple. Above this, a small loop protrudes from the top of the medallion, connecting it 
    to its silver-link chain. The back of the medallion is smooth and well-polished, allowing images to 
    reflect back at you when you look at it.
    Months of usefulness left: 129 mo.
    Huh. Neat.
    ShirszaeSeftinAereidhnaKasa
  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited August 2015
    I think there's something to both sides here.

    As I tried to express in that thread about leadership, it's usually more or less obvious whether someone is "ready" for a given rank. You rarely have problems, they're rarely dire when they pop up, and the cost of tons of specific requirements is much worse than the collective cost of those problems.

    I think what must be stressed is that expectations are different than requirements. If your house's mission requires that full members be able to teach basic combat to new members, then that's a reasonable expectation. What's not reasonable is to hold people back when they're clearly knowledgable combatants because HELP PROBATES says that the strict requirement is to participate and record a duel against every class - if the person clearly knows what they're doing and is having trouble finding an appropriate opponent of one or two classes, you're killing their engagement over a bureaucratic quibble. "Participate meaningfully in five raids" works as a good suggestion if your expectation is for your members to have some raid capability, but if someone participates really meaningfully in two and clearly has that capability, there's no point holding them to the requirement - at that point it's not really a question of their capability, it's just a gussied-up waiting period for advancement.

    What you want are general expectations and a list of suggestions for how someone could acquire those skills and demonstrate that knowledge - not a list of strict requirements.

    Strict requirements lead to boredom when the person is already clearly capable and is just going through the motions to check off each box and they don't really work in a lot of cases - it's totally possible for someone to duel every class and come out of it having learned essentially nothing: if you want the duels to be an effective requirement, you're going to have to evaluate performance and learning subjectively anyway.

    All that said, house favours for people under HR5 are clearly problematic.

    You can (and should!) use other incentives for participation - house items are fun and in the past I've gone out of my way to get both tailored designs and jewelery made, and to even get house tutor-sold items normally reserved for purchase by full members into the hands of novices as rewards. But HFs should be able to serve as rewards too, and without the potential for significant interference in the novice training program.

    They cause ugly - and very legitimate - problems like Aerek is describing, where people end up as mechanical full members without fulfilling the expectations of the house (and while HR might not be tied to authority in the general sense, I don't know a single org that doesn't tie "full membership" to HR5 and any house that didn't tie those together would have to do yet more record-keeping, with no real benefit to just having HR5 be full membership).

    The system has also lead some houses to actually require that someone receive favours as part of their novice requirements, leading to a situation where basic advancement to full member becomes dependent on being online at the same times as the people who do most of the favour granting, doing the things they tend to grant favours for, and doing those things conspicuously enough to be noticed. When houses try to ameliorate this issue by providing lists of "favourable" activities, this is just a disguise for a list of requirements that requires more roundabout bookkeeping and forces novices to awkwardly ask for favours because they're doing "favourable" things, but not getting favours for them.

    The other issue is that, unless I'm mistaken, because promotion to HR5 (and the ranks below) is done via a single command that just sets the rank rather than incrementing it, the favours you give to people prior to HR5 are actually wasted. They're fake rewards. If Alfred gets 5 HFs before HR5 and Bettina gets none, once they hit HR5 their rank is identical.

    What would be really nice is if HFs prior to HR5 were just sort of "saved up" and applied as soon as someone actually gets HR5. That way novices can still be rewarded with HFs, they actually have more meaning in the long run, and this problem of HFs interfering with novice programs is totally eliminated.
    AhmetAtalkezAereidhnaKasa
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I know the conversation isn't all about me, but for the record, the Shield does all of those things to make up for its req-heavy nature. (House items, credit sales, gold rewards, special titles, even artefacts are on the books)

    Or at least we will have house items, once we put Lorielan back in our sweatshop. She's earned a vacation for now because she does fucking fantastic work.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    TaelAereidhna
  • RuthRuth SingaporeMember Posts: 2,700 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I try to link cityfavours with things they've done well representing the house because the work they do as a member of x directly reflects on Mhaldor.

    That all being said, try to use other alternative rewards to acknowledge their efforts if HFs and ranking up messes with your house promotion system!
    "Mummy, I'm hungry, but there's no one to eat! :C"

     

  • SkyeSkye The Duchess BellatereMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 2,824 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ideally speaking, I'd love a House promotion system that doesn't work off checklists or become overly dependent on the personal attention of the HoN.

    The former because the checklisted thing feels terribly inorganic and the latter because it's bad enough when some Houses grind to a halt when the Patron goes dormant, but also bad when everything waits on a HoN to be rubberstamped. If two (or three) secretaries (or even full members depending on the size of the House) can collectively agree that a particular novice shows accomplishment by their activity and involvement, there's no real reason to not promote them. 

    This is especially for smaller (but not tiny) Houses that aren't combat focused. In a community where the bulk of activities involve giving sermons (which, apparently you get favoured for anyway) and performing rituals etc, it's a bit difficult to not acknowledge when a person has transitioned from newbiehood to full membership. The only real quibble you could possibly have is that their sermons/rituals/whatever are rubbish (which they wouldn't be favoured for if they were).

    Of course such a thing would require people to be more involved with their newbies instead of just fobbing it off entirely on the novice aides, and pay attention to their House related activities.


  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The reward for doing these things well for their reqs is moving up in ranks. Tell them they did great work instead of Housefavouring them. It sounds like you want a system where you can HF someone as much as you want and have it mean nothing, which is dumb. This is accomplished by saying, "Hey, that was really incredible work, I'm looking forward to your future efforts!"

    If you want them to complete their requirements to advance, don't HF people in those ranks, it's really simple to convey appreciation without using the HF system.
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  • AereidhnaAereidhna DallasMember Posts: 682 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited August 2015
    Agree with Jarrod and Tael. Write log with nice comments and maybe give them a favor after they graduate?
  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited August 2015
    To be a little bit clearer, I meant that the system itself should save them up and apply them post-HR5. Novice aides shouldn't have to deal with even more recordkeeping and there is pretty much no reason to keep HFs that apply prior to HR5 as part of the system.

    I just IDEAd this in case anyone is interested:
    You submit the idea #293 'When you housefavour any house member below HR5, their houserank shouldn't be immediately affected. Instead, any housefavours acquired before HR5 should be "saved up" and applied as soon as the member reaches HR5. This solves two problems with the current system. The first is that housefavours can cause a novice to skip ranks that are part of the novice program. This is a problem because a novice can be very helpful in one area and earn a lot of housefavours while still not meeting the basic expectations of the house in some other area. This problem forces elder members either not to use the housefavour system to reward novices at all, to try to guess whether their housefavour would push a novice past the threshold of the next rank, to discourage novices by disfavouring them, or to add even more recordkeeping duties to novice aides by forcing them to track progress through novice programs without relying on houserank. The other problem is that it devalues housefavours as rewards for novices because as soon as their houserank is set to HR5, the favours they've accumulated before that point become meaningless. If housefavours can be given before HR5, but aren't applied to houserank until HR5, then novices can still be rewarded with housefavours, those housefavours are ultimately more meaningful, and there are no problems.' for review.
    RohaiAereidhna
  • AodfionnAodfionn Seattle, WAMember Posts: 1,216 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2015
    This recently occurred in the Harbingers. The person in question had one task left, but was kicking so much ass at Harbinger-related stuff that they got to HR5. 

    I am, as we speak, graduating that person. If someone does a good enough job to get the favours, it means they were probably very much cut out for full membership imo. I am all about making sure people get rewarded for playing the game in a positive manner more than I care about only having 4 out of 5 tasks completed. Shit, especially for an RP-heavy house. 
    Aurora says, "Are you drunk, Aodfionn?" 

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    SkyePraxides
  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited August 2015
    Aodfionn said:
    This recently occurred in the Harbingers. The person in question had one task left, but was kicking so much ass at Harbinger-related stuff that they got to HR5. 

    I am, as we speak, graduating that person. If someone does a good enough job to get the favours, it means they were probably very much cut out for full membership imo. I am all about making sure people get rewarded for playing the game in a positive manner more than I care about only having 4 out of 5 tasks completed. Shit, especially for an RP-heavy house. 
    Having 4 out of 5 tasks completed is definitely a stupid thing to hold someone back over if the person is kicking ass.

    Thankfully, there's a command right there for you to just promote such people! Problem solved!

    None of this changes the fact that it is very much possible (and has actually happened) that people who aren't ready for full membership end up at HR5 thanks to housefavours. If there's any lesson to be taken from this thread, it's probably that the opinion that getting enough favours for HR5 means someone is probably cut out for full membership is very myopic - it has a lot to do with the context of the house you're talking about. It works fine for the Harbingers, but just a few posts up Aerek discusses the Shield and how a lot of favours there do not necessarily mean that someone is cut out for full membership.

    We had a similar issue back when I was in the Naga (when the Naga were still a house :'( ) - there were practically endless housefavours given out to people who milked venoms and/or helped stock the house shop. That was near-universally the most common source of housefavours. No one ever wanted to do those things and everyone was always very thankful for the one or two people at a time who typically took it upon themselves to handle all of it for a while. A few times, those people were HR3/4. They absolutely deserved favours and we all appreciated them helping out, but willingness to sit in a room milking venoms for hours does not a Naga make. There were many ways to fulfill the expectations of a full member, but milking a lot of venoms was not one of them. I don't recall any of them actually hitting HR5 through favours thankfully, but I can guarantee that one or two people got close during the two times I was HoN for the Naga and it would have been a real headache if any of them had managed it.

    It's clearly a problem that the system is designed in such a way that rewarding people for doing an otherwise boring and thankless task can actually lead to things like people milking their way to full membership in the Naga. The way housefavours interact with the normal novice system seems mostly like an awkward legacy thing that's just never been adjusted because novices who manage to get that many housefavours are pretty rare (mostly because most houses are pretty stingy with the HFs).

    The fact that there are houses where accumulating favours suffices to prove readiness for full membership really shouldn't distract from the fact that there are many houses where it doesn't. And those houses where it does can just promote the people doing all this stuff and racking up all these favours anyway - which is probably better than waiting for the favours to cross some arbitrary threshold too.
  • JurixeJurixe Where you least expect itMember Posts: 1,649 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2015
    Tael said:

    We had a similar issue back when I was in the Naga (when the Naga were still a house :'( ) - there were practically endless housefavours given out to people who milked venoms and/or helped stock the house shop. That was near-universally the most common source of housefavours. No one ever wanted to do those things and everyone was always very thankful for the one or two people at a time who typically took it upon themselves to handle all of it for a while. A few times, those people were HR3/4. They absolutely deserved favours and we all appreciated them helping out, but willingness to sit in a room milking venoms for hours does not a Naga make. There were many ways to fulfill the expectations of a full member, but milking a lot of venoms was not one of them. I don't recall any of them actually hitting HR5 through favours thankfully, but I can guarantee that one or two people got close during the two times I was HoN for the Naga and it would have been a real headache if any of them had managed it.

    The main reason for this is under the old system, no matter how many favours you got, you had to be specifically promoted to HR3 and HR5. You could not, for instance, accumulate a thousand HFs to get from HR1/HR2 to make HR3, and you couldn't go higher than HR4 without specifically going through HOUSE PROMOTE.

    I do like that the current system allows you to directly promote, but with HFs still affecting House rank, people can and have bypassed the 'requirements', especially if you 'got lucky' and got HR15 favours all the time. Perhaps HFs just shouldn't affect rank below, say, HR5. Yes, you can reward people differently but even just the term 'housefavour' carries connotations that boost people's esteem. Or perhaps houses should make a pact among their Council to use less HFs as actual rewards and just make use of more credit rewards.
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