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Delete Veils

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  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited May 2015
    Aerek said:
    Tael said:
    How would people feel about the target of an aggressive action by a veiled person being able to pierce the veil and locate the attacker for 5 minutes as if they had a veil?
    I actually wouldn't suggest this, as this comes closer to Klendathu's concern of "if Veils don't make me hard to find, why have a Veil?" I think it's perfectly fair to pay 2000cr and be difficult for the playerbase at large to locate. It's only Marks, who exist as part of the Admin-designed system through which the players police themselves, who need to be able to cut through Veils like that. during raids, where fair conflict depends on being able to find the other guys, where Veils should be addressed.

    There is nothing wrong with the Veil's intended function, it's only an a problem when that function defeats other systems' intended functions, and Marks and raids are the only times I really see that happening.
    I'm not really sure I understand this response.

    Veils would still make you harder to find. They would make you harder to find in every single situation except right after you attack someone and fail to kill them, which seems like the thing people are most annoyed about - people being able to attack and then face no repercussions because no one can locate them. That sort of avoidance of repercussions has been frowned upon in the game by the community and the admin as long as I've been playing.

    Veils would still make you hard to find (a) generally (b) before you actually commit an aggressive action (c) 5 minutes after you commit an aggressive action (d) to everyone other than the person you actually attacked. People without a veil still can't locate you when you're in the UW. People without a veil still can't locate you to gank you. People without a veil still can't locate you while you're trying to rob people. People without a veil still can't locate you to hunt you down for something you did more than five minutes ago or for being a soldier or an enemy or to claim a bounty. So long as you kill your targets when you attack them, you still can't even be located. You can still gank with impunity so long as you don't mess it up, but if you do, people get five minutes to potentially fight back - you don't get to attack someone, fail to kill them, and then walk a few rooms away and suddenly they don't get to fight back. You can still do guerrilla-style raiding (which a font power would not allow for), you just have to be careful and strategic and make sure you kill your targets rather than running around just annoying everyone with non-lethal snipe-and-run tactics.

    It seems like a pretty fair middle ground that allows veiled people to enjoy virtually all of the benefits they currently do, but allows people to locate their attackers for reprisal when they're the target of a failed gank and allows defenders to locate raiders who are actively commiting hostile actions against them.

    To say that this would be defeating the purpose of owning a veil sounds an awful lot like admitting that the real purpose of owning a veil is being able to attack people without any chance for them to fight back. If that's the case, then I think they should be deleted, but I don't think that's the case at all - I think being difficult to locate is useful for a lot more than being able to attack people without them being able to fight back if they don't have a veil or a friend with a veil and location request triggers.
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Don't suppose @Sarapis could give some input before this thread deteriorates any further, or continues to iterate the same issues in fifty other ways.
    Huh. Neat.
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sarapis said:
    We've got no plans to delete veils.
    Kthxbai everybody. Was fun having you. Really was a blast.
    Huh. Neat.
    XithAustere
  • KayeilKayeil Washington StateMember Posts: 2,824 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sarapis said:
    We've got no plans to delete veils.
    Yay! Thank you!
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 5,012 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sarapis said:
    We've got no plans to delete veils.


    How about making a city defense to bypass?

    Or the Mark issue that was brought up?



    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    VakvyrAntidas
  • VakvyrVakvyr Member Posts: 105 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    City defense prz. Is fair.
  • XithXith Member Posts: 2,602 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I can't tell if the game is less fun or if my expectations are just higher. I think tiny annoyances like Veils were no big deal when I had time to play but now that I'm limited in time, that sort of thing takes up more of my patience.

    I've achieved about everything except dragon and holding a position in an org. But what was great about Achaea is the impact you could have. I got to be part of a fringe organization that permanently shaped the landscape, but that sort of thing takes up administrative time. I felt I was probably being more of a drain on game resources than making anything better.

    But what really tipped me into dormancy was this artefact. I was in the unique position to defend a region from hunters, but some of the hunters have this thing that keeps me from seeing where in my local area they are. They could see me coming but I couldn't see them, which is more fun when you're outnumbered 4 to 1. 
    Obvious solution? Buy a veil. However, many hunters also didn't have a veil, and that would give me an edge that frankly I didn't need against most of them. I'd have to be the thing I hate in an otherwise seamless combat environment. Pinning/chasing your target is difficult enough when you can find where they are (former veilless Jester, can attest to this). But to throw up a 2000cr buy-in just to effectively chase rich people? Kind of a waste of all that combat balancing.

    Combat is arguably the best feature. Even if you were critical of Achaea's lore, there's nothing quite like those fights. But when you get to things like earrings, wings, veils, etc., it reminds me of the time I nearly killed Tanris and he used the pre-nerf Astralform to escape a jitb at the last second. I think if some novice grasps the mechanics enough to nearly kill me, I shouldn't be able to survive just because I bought this toy.

    It may seem like a tired argument, but like the recently retired Torc of Telepathy, Achaea may need to continue the artefact audit with combat-friendliness in mind. Anything that does more than enhance an existing class ability shouldn't apply to combat or be required to participate in high-level combat (see: Wings and getting left behind when trying to get to clouds during a raid).
    I like my steak like I like my Magic cards: mythic rare.
    AedinTael
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,271 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Seriously, dude, one artefact deletion a day is enough.  Can start again on the hunt to destroy Ire's income, tomorrow. Wings shouldn't be next, though.  Let's tackle something truly crazy like gem of cloaking
  • SynbiosSynbios Member Posts: 4,614 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    On the bright side, Sarapis has not said that there wouldn't be alternate ways to locate veiled people...

    Tael
  • JamethielJamethiel AdelaideMember Posts: 131 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I have a gem, a veil and tend to be on my ship but when I'm not dormant I'm still very interactive.

    @Melodie you know how talkative I can be :pleased: 
    Melodie
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,288 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Remember the "no plans to add afflictions to GMCP data" and "no plans to delete Torc"?

    The struggle continues ever onwards.
  • BlujixapugBlujixapug Member Posts: 1,833 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:
    Remember the "no plans to add afflictions to GMCP data" and "no plans to delete Torc"?

    The struggle continues ever onwards.
    No plans, plural. Maybe they just have one plan.
    image
    Borran
  • BorranBorran Member Posts: 845 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    One plan to rule them all.

    Xith
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    Daeir said:
    Remember the "no plans to add afflictions to GMCP data" and "no plans to delete Torc"?

    The struggle continues ever onwards.
    Yes, this is how it works.  Even with Achaea's players tending to be weirdly reticent (especially in the past) about giving clear feedback when there was something a lot of them really didn't like, there have been so many things that did eventually change due to that kind of player feedback, despite a change being seemingly impossible at times.  

    It seemed impossible either because a certain portion of players had a vested interest in keeping things as they were, or because admin was historically opposed to it, or both.  So it took many RL years and a lot of repeated forums thrash in a lot of cases, but it happened.  
    Tael
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jules said:
    Daeir said:
    Remember the "no plans to add afflictions to GMCP data" and "no plans to delete Torc"?

    The struggle continues ever onwards.
    Yes, this is how it works.  Even with Achaea's players tending to be weirdly reticent (especially in the past) about giving clear feedback when there was something a lot of them really didn't like, there have been so many things that did eventually change due to that kind of player feedback, despite a change being seemingly impossible at times.  

    It seemed impossible either because a certain portion of players had a vested interest in keeping things as they were, or because admin was historically opposed to it, or both.  So it took many RL years and a lot of repeated forums thrash in a lot of cases, but it happened.  
    Sadly, not enough people have Explorers Tomes for this to happen :(
    Huh. Neat.
    Jules
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    I had to dig that up... wasn't sure what you meant/what it was at first.  I assume you're talking about the fairly ridiculous pricing.  If you're lucky, they'll figure out it's not selling eventually and significantly drop the price (or make it a free feature like it is in other IRE games). 
    Josoul
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jules said:
    I had to dig that up... wasn't sure what you meant/what it was at first.  I assume you're talking about the fairly ridiculous pricing.  If you're lucky, they'll figure out it's not selling eventually and significantly drop the price (or make it a free feature like it is in other IRE games). 
    Or make it list all areas' percentages to actually be worth the price. *wink wink nudge nudge* @Sarapis
    Huh. Neat.
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ahmet said:
    Jules said:
    I had to dig that up... wasn't sure what you meant/what it was at first.  I assume you're talking about the fairly ridiculous pricing.  If you're lucky, they'll figure out it's not selling eventually and significantly drop the price (or make it a free feature like it is in other IRE games). 
    Or make it list all areas' percentages to actually be worth the price. *wink wink nudge nudge* @Sarapis
    But that's my point. It's such a niche item that I doubt it will happen any time in the near future :(
    Huh. Neat.
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,372 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 2,169 @ - Epic Achaean
    Yeah, but a lot of people care a lot about exploring.  But, it's absolutely in that "nifty, but not something I'm going to fork over a large sum for" category for all but a few crazy customers.  There have been also been a lot of newer artifacts (which is good) and people may not be familiar with all of them - which can also contribute to them not selling sometimes until enough people end up talking to someone who has one and likes it. 
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jules said:
    Yeah, but a lot of people care a lot about exploring.  But, it's absolutely in that "nifty, but not something I'm going to fork over a large sum for" category for all but a few crazy customers.  There have been also been a lot of newer artifacts (which is good) and people may not be familiar with all of them - which can also contribute to them not selling sometimes until enough people end up talking to someone who has one and likes it. 
    Yepyep.
    Huh. Neat.
  • KatzchenKatzchen MhaldorMember Posts: 2,000 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Got an explorer's tome when I traded in my second soulpiercer. Already had bought my level 3 band, and only needed to convert one to a longsword. It's useful, but I'm not sure it's worth the price, yeah. Gem is better for exploring.


                   Honourable, knight eternal,

                                            Darkly evil, cruel infernal.

                                                                     Necromanctic to the core,

                                                                                             Dance with death forever more.



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