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Give all forging modifiers practical implications

Silvarien
Silvarien Member Posts: 577 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
Hi there.

Currently, forging modifiers seem to be largely cosmetic, but they can get very expensive. I was thinking -- why not go through all those modifiers and add each one to have some sort of practical effect? It would require a giant heap of calculations for balance, but I don't think it would require the system itself to be changed. What we have wouldn't have to be reworked. What I am talking about would be an addition more of a modification. There's nothing that needs to be subtracted, just added.

For example, look at the diamond-edged weapon modifier for Master and higher. It's expensive. I mean, looks are something, but wouldn't it make sense to make an effect for that? Mastering diamond-edged takes a fortune, and not a small one. Making it have a practical effect would make us have incentive to master it, and it would make sense for the modifier itself to exist, because there's more to it than cosmetics.

As for the effects, you really could go to town. To-hit, lightning resist, blunt damage, critical hit bonus, etc etc etc etc -- to infinity. Literally anything could be added. Armor, weapons, whatever. The caveat is you can only have like 2 modifiers, so you can't have everything. Tons of combat implications result as people make a strategy of adding combat-related or hunting-related modifiers. You could even make modifiers impact gathering, harvesting, or alchemy extraction. Or even impact the efficiency of concoctions or venom-making.

The natural objection is it would make artie stuff shit, but then we could take forging and "temper" artie weapons to give them the effects of whatever modifier, be it diamond-edged, or skull-festooned, or sharp and pointy. So, you just add the modifier to artie weapon. Also, there's nothing inherently sucky to the cosmetic effect of "diamond-edged Logosian longsword." The effects of Logosian remain, you just get the forging modifier, and you just made forging tons more useful, and the artie stuff is still useful.

The other gigantic bonus is it would really make sense to work on virtually any modifier, not just lacquer-based ones that get you to Legendary Smith faster. You'd need EVERYTHING now to be a truly effective Smith.

Thank you for reading my idea.
Titonus

Comments

  • Kresslack
    Kresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,618 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    That would effectively contradict the standardised weapons format now. And descriptors already offer a chance of additional points depending on who forges it.


    TharvisWeiArador
  • Tharvis
    Tharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    not to mention the sheer cost and time that'd have to go into balancing each specific descriptor into their "niche"
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

  • Nim
    Nim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It'd be neat if the descriptors decided what the (currently) random bonuses went to, either via weight or favored stats or something else, but probably more work than it's actually worth. On the other hand, it'd be neat to have some descriptors vary in generally negative ways, like Training currently does.
  • Kakotas
    Kakotas Member Posts: 274 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Aerek I could however see over time limited changes to some of them either in price rebalancing (for the extremely costly ones that don't do much if that is determined to be the case) or perhaps we could add slight things to them that wouldn't affect combat what those ideas might be I have no clue off the top of my head but ideas might help there. It wouldn't turn them into old rapiers but it would add some flavor or balance out costs so that we don't have 50 credit swords for nothing more than flavor text.
    (Blades of Valour): He just has that Synbios Swagger enough said.
    (Blades of Valour): Draekar says: "Synbios if sunbeams sparkle off that I'll kill you where you stand."

    (Party) Halos says, "Disbar?"
    (Party) Draekar says, "You know here we have disbar."
    (Party) Draekar says, "And over there we have datbar."
  • Bronislav
    Bronislav MarylandMember Posts: 348 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Fire/Cold/Lighting/Magic/Poison damage add-ons based on the descriptors could encourage lessons spent on the relevant miniskills, and make hunting a little more strategic - a player might deal a bit more damage to undead denizens with a fire-enchanted sword, for example, but such a weapon would do a bit less damage against the denizens in Nuskuwe. Beyond that, I'd be hesitant to add anything more for the exact reasons that @Aerek had mentioned.



    Kakotas
  • Kakotas
    Kakotas Member Posts: 274 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    My only qualm about that is the sheer amount of rework that would be required to do that though as I understand the hunting system. It would require types and additional formulas.
    (Blades of Valour): He just has that Synbios Swagger enough said.
    (Blades of Valour): Draekar says: "Synbios if sunbeams sparkle off that I'll kill you where you stand."

    (Party) Halos says, "Disbar?"
    (Party) Draekar says, "You know here we have disbar."
    (Party) Draekar says, "And over there we have datbar."
  • Aerek
    Aerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,836 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Bronislav said:
    Fire/Cold/Lighting/Magic/Poison damage add-ons based on the descriptors could encourage lessons spent on the relevant miniskills, and make hunting a little more strategic - a player might deal a bit more damage to undead denizens with a fire-enchanted sword, for example, but such a weapon would do a bit less damage against the denizens in Nuskuwe. Beyond that, I'd be hesitant to add anything more for the exact reasons that @Aerek had mentioned.
    That's still the same result. If you could add fire/cold/electric/magic/poison damage to your weapons, why would you ever not? You're essentially mandating one/two of those descriptors on every weapon forged. There's really not any middle ground here; either the descriptors have mechanical advantages and the "best" ones make the others obsolete, or the added bonuses are so small and inconsequential that they truly don't matter, so why take the time and effort to implement them?
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    Kakotas
  • Makaela
    Makaela Member Posts: 353 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    But artefact weapons would not benefit :/

    Trilliana
  • Draekar
    Draekar Member Posts: 314 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Forging modifiers as they are now are more of a gold sink for flavour txt and RP much like jewellery and tailoring etc. I think this is fine as it is and I wouldn't really expect there to be additional mechanical advantages due to these modifiers.

    The standardisation of weapons is also a good change as is the new varied forms of Knight combat to use these weapons. My only two thoughts are as follows.

    1. The secondary weapon for each Knight spec could be more balanced I feel, in that I'd like to see it so Knights would be more comfortable using either or in general combat and not relying in most cases on the primary weapon (or faster weapon) for each spec. I know the arguments for both sides in this one, and it is a huge improvement over 98% of all knights using rapiers. I am just saying it would be nice.

    2. The other thought that crossed my mind was that you could look at lowering base decay times and perhaps giving small increases to this from the modifying tiers of forging. This would give forgers a tangible benefit to their efforts and cost of forging and bring the skill more in to line with all the other consumerable tradeskills (through the increased demand). I know this isn't that well thought out as an idea but something I thought might be worth considering.
  • Kakotas
    Kakotas Member Posts: 274 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Draekar said:
    Forging modifiers as they are now are more of a gold sink for flavour txt and RP much like jewellery and tailoring etc. I think this is fine as it is and I wouldn't really expect there to be additional mechanical advantages due to these modifiers.

    The standardisation of weapons is also a good change as is the new varied forms of Knight combat to use these weapons. My only two thoughts are as follows.

    1. The secondary weapon for each Knight spec could be more balanced I feel, in that I'd like to see it so Knights would be more comfortable using either or in general combat and not relying in most cases on the primary weapon (or faster weapon) for each spec. I know the arguments for both sides in this one, and it is a huge improvement over 98% of all knights using rapiers. I am just saying it would be nice.

    2. The other thought that crossed my mind was that you could look at lowering base decay times and perhaps giving small increases to this from the modifying tiers of forging. This would give forgers a tangible benefit to their efforts and cost of forging and bring the skill more in to line with all the other consumerable tradeskills (through the increased demand). I know this isn't that well thought out as an idea but something I thought might be worth considering.
    1- please. This is a bit awkward at the moment.
    2-I think I prefer longer decay times because it is made out of steel. However I could see some of the less durable ones being less expensive and maybe readjusting decay times based on what they are made of?
    (Blades of Valour): He just has that Synbios Swagger enough said.
    (Blades of Valour): Draekar says: "Synbios if sunbeams sparkle off that I'll kill you where you stand."

    (Party) Halos says, "Disbar?"
    (Party) Draekar says, "You know here we have disbar."
    (Party) Draekar says, "And over there we have datbar."
    Yae
  • Aerek
    Aerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,836 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    1) I'm not sure what you mean here, I think the system is pretty good. Each Knight spec tends to use one weapon more than the other, saving the alternate for special situations, but that's no different from Monks or Blademasters using one stance more than the others, because they have their practical uses. You can't really make every weapon a viable choice except by removing the differences between them, thereby making them simple cosmetic choices, and that seems dull to me.

    2) Forged items' decay times dropped to 60 months because Alchemists are draining the continent of primes to make their minerals, and all of Achaea's steel has become low-quality trash as a result. We need to get a mob together and lynch the Cauda Pavonis.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    Kakotas
  • Kakotas
    Kakotas Member Posts: 274 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Aerek -Two handed the hammer portion needs help. It's great I think weaponmastery is just new and will be needing tweaks for the next several sessions. (A few more hammer skills or balancing it so both weapons are viable in each spec would be nice. I've not played extensively but some of them seem kind of heavily weighted towards one side or the other of their spec.
    (Blades of Valour): He just has that Synbios Swagger enough said.
    (Blades of Valour): Draekar says: "Synbios if sunbeams sparkle off that I'll kill you where you stand."

    (Party) Halos says, "Disbar?"
    (Party) Draekar says, "You know here we have disbar."
    (Party) Draekar says, "And over there we have datbar."
  • Alyana
    Alyana Member Posts: 44 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I just wish that SnB knights could viably use anything other then a buckler. I love the spec, but after being excited about getting to not have to wield rapiers, it was a bit of a disappointment to find it necessary to go from dainty fencing swords to a dainty shield.
  • Kendrick
    Kendrick Member Posts: 57 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Alyana said:
    I just wish that SnB knights could viably use anything other then a buckler. I love the spec, but after being excited about getting to not have to wield rapiers, it was a bit of a disappointment to find it necessary to go from dainty fencing swords to a dainty shield.
    Didn't they create a balance cap of like 1.8 seconds so there'd be no reason to use a buckler?
  • Aerek
    Aerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,836 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The opposite. They did cap S&B combos at 1.8 or so, but only longsword/buckler can actually reach that cap. Level 3 longsword/SoA gets close, but I've never seen it actually go below 2 seconds. You don't specifically need to get that fast, you can fight with a forged/banded well enough, but there are a few little tricks that only work if you're swinging at a <:02 balance.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
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