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March 2015 Classlead

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  • EldEld Member Posts: 3,946 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Hellen said:
    Posting here for some feedback before I submit a classlead. I'd just like some more immediate feedback, as Disrupt is an ability I think we may need to tread carefully around.

    Ether disrupt is an interesting little ability that I doubt gets much use. Its mostly because it does so little for the buildup it needs and the downtime. It isolates all communications in and out the area for five minutes. It takes at least half an hour to be able to use it again (unless this has changed recently). Granted, another alchemist could simply disrupt, but how many alchemists does any city actually have about? I think Hashan actually has the most, and we'd get maybe ten-fifteen minutes at any given time.

    Disrupt either needs to last longer or have a shorter downtime. If we're going to keep those the same, it possibly needs to have more effects to justify the extreme downtime. Either way, the ability should be indiscriminate.

    Problem is, Disrupt is an ability that can be stupidly powerful if buffed without much thought.
    What do you mean by indiscriminate here? Just that any additional effects should also affect everyone in the area, rather than restricting to allies or similar?
  • SethSeth North CarolinaMember Posts: 145 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Can you classlead to remove a skill? Stonefist is just a memento from old Magi/Sylvan. It really doesn't have much of a purpose now that firelash has been moved down.
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,797 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Seth said:
    Can you classlead to remove a skill? Stonefist is just a memento from old Magi/Sylvan. It really doesn't have much of a purpose now that firelash has been moved down.
    Stonefist serves the very valuable purpose of padding your defense list with something that could be stripped instead of something you actually care about. (RIP Soulmask. Necromancy misses you)

    RomAntidas
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,797 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sena said:
    Even if it was truly useless, it should still be kept in just for flavour, unless its existence is actually causing some problem.
    You're right. Someone classlead to bring back soulmask (also using soulmask on devos making it impossible for them to check their devotion was lol)

  • CahinCahin Member Posts: 1,246 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Trey said:
    Sena said:
    Even if it was truly useless, it should still be kept in just for flavour, unless its existence is actually causing some problem.
    You're right. Someone classlead to bring back soulmask (also using soulmask on devos making it impossible for them to check their devotion was lol)
    also psycombat
    [*]

  • SilvarienSilvarien Member Posts: 577 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Did anyone like the Classleads I submitted? 131-135.

    Basically would allow a Priest to cast a Blessing offensively to have the reverse effect on an enemy. Willpower would reduce willpower regen, Earthshield would decrease cutting/blunt defense, etc.
    Aerek
  • SilvarienSilvarien Member Posts: 577 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Okie dokie, it was just a thought on my part. I am not hugely cognizant of balance and offensive issues.
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,374 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ohhh, see when I was reading these class leads I read it as if a priest had given an enemy one of the blessings And then said enemy was fighting a priest it would negate the priests blessing...
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Don't think you needed 4 separate class leads for that either
  • SilvarienSilvarien Member Posts: 577 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Amranu said:
    Don't think you needed 4 separate class leads for that either
    @Amranu : someone told me I did, and I kinda thought I did. I am not sure if I ever submitted a Classlead before, maybe once before, but not more than that. Sorry for the bother. X_x
    Rangor
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Report #162
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Submitted by: Anonymous Status : Submitted
    Skill : Spiritlore Ability : Coagulate/soulscourge
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Problem:
    With the combination of these abilities, Shaman can trivially send 4 locking afflictions in the span
    of an herb balance. For example, with only asthma stuck impatience/imbibe vernalius, anorexia/coag
    gecko. The doll's destruction prevents repetitive use of soulscourge, but coagulate circumvents this
    balancing factor.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Solution #1:
    Have Soulscourge trigger Coagulate's cooldown to prevent ultra rapid pairing of these two abilities
    with swift curses.
    Solution #2:
    Solution #3:
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Report #163
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Submitted by: Anonymous Status : Submitted
    Skill : Curses Ability : Paralyse
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Problem:
    Unhindrable paralysis at .8 seconds turned out to be a poor mechanic. Because Shaman is on balance
    twice as often as an opponent can eat herbs, opponents are left with fractions of attacking
    opportunities. While other classes that afflict at similar speeds have rebounding or shield as
    balancing factors, curseward is useless as a hindering ability.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Solution #1:
    Swiftcurse no longer affects the paralyse curse.
    Solution #2:
    Extend the base balance of paralyse curse to bring a swift cursed paralyse to 1.5s
    Solution #3:
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Report #164
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Submitted by: Anonymous Status : Submitted
    Skill : Survival Ability : Curseward
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Problem:
    Curseward is useless in regular combat. With Shaman now being the king of momentum affliction
    locking, a hindering tool must be created to allow defensive hindering.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Solution #1:
    Curseward no longer requires equilibrium and now emulates aura of rebounding. 10 seconds after
    uttering a Curseward, the ward is actually raised. Observe impact on Apostate - consider making
    Evileye not respect Curseward.
    Solution #2:
    Solution #3:
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So who fought a Shaman 3 times and ragequit instead of actually trying to figure out how to fight them?


  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,240 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 2015
    They aren't my classleads, but what are your actual rebuttals out of curiosity? Number 3 is a bad classlead, but I don't see much wrong with 1 and 2. .8s paralysis curses are akin to 1.6s dsl or dstab speeds that can't be stopped by rebounding or shield. Not a great situation for momentum classes to be in considering Shaman is also a very strong prep class.

    I don't agree with the solutions there, but the problems are fairly accurate.
  • XinnaXinna Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    I agree that shaman paralysis is very annoying, and different than most classes with respect to how hindering it is. Though, removing it would impact shaman momentum afflicting a ton (1.5 second single afflicting is pretty slow, so you're essentially getting rid of it for affliction stacking purposes).

    On the other hand, vodun paralyse is actually really quick and could be substituted, so you're basically reducing momentum truelocking some, in favor of slightly more prep being needed to do the same.

    I probably wouldn't make paralyse un-swiftable though. If anything, maybe have it on a cooldown. You can only paralyse swiftcurse once every 2 curses (once every 1.5 seconds?). This essentially makes it the same as other classes. Paralyse, asthma, paralyse, asthma is basically like using curare/kalmia dstab, etc.

    Jovolo
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited March 2015
    Shaman paralysis I've seen worked around beautifully by pretty much every class. Against affliction classes I often find that the ability to curse paralysis so quickly is irrelevant, as it's all about who has momentum. Against Serpents, Apostates and dual cut/s&b knights there are often times when I can only get in one curse for every one dstab/evileyes/dsl for 3-4 attacks in a row due to them having momentum over me. I don't particularly see it as overpowered, especially given that while initially following the changes I did have an absurd win rate, I am already significantly closer to 50/50 (or far, far below in some cases) when it comes to win rate.

    For instance, Proficy who I was initially destroying, figured out to 1) run if he doesn't have momentum, 2) how to kill me when he does. Against Ayoxele, my win rate is in the toilet and this is largely due to his ability to run when needed against one of the few classes that have no way to stop movement, and take advantage of his momentum when he gains it to lock me. Against Mizik, who has recently switched to Serpent I currently have a 60% win rate (3/5) but prior to his very recent switch he had more wins than I did against me, and I've found Serpent to be a very interesting match against Shaman due to their ability to lock far, far quicker than my own.

    Hell, I even have a ~50% win rate against Yurdan's dual blunt, who has no hinder to speak of. The problem with Shaman is not it's affliction speed, which is mediocre except when going for lock, at which point it is certainly above average. Nor is it with curseward, which when used smartly just like shield against can completely shut down my momentum. We already have to swiftcurse every 8-10 curses which effectively acts as the curseward idea above to slow momentum. Curseward is equivalent to a shield that can be used while hindered at the cost of a longer eq time, and when used smartly makes locking virtually impossible (especially against any class with active or passive curing). The problem with curseward isn't curseward, but people's refusal to learn to use it properly.

    Coagulate + soulscourge is an interesting combination, and certainly one of the quickest affliction rates when used together in the game. This is not to say it needs to be nerfed though. Alchemists, with prep are able to deliver 4 locking afflicts in one move. Serpents are capable of delivering 3 lock afflicts at once, have a higher base affliction speed as well as being able to lock far quicker than Shaman with far less momentum due to the utility of hypnosis. Bards are able to stun for to allow for 4 afflictions with Percussia for the lock, with very little prep. Meanwhile, coagulate requires momentum (150 bleeding, which usually requires haemophilia to also be stuck as well as several curses following that). And soulscourge requires some prep in the vodun to use, and requires rebuilding that prep if the lock attempt fails.

    If people want curseward to act more like shield, that's fine and I've already submitted a classlead to that effect.


    tl;dr Shaman is one of the few classes that have no room hinder, making paralysis fine as you can run and come back until you gain momentum over the Shaman. Curseward is pretty useful in it's current role in my opinion, but could be made to act similar to shield if that's what people want, as curses is already time limited by swiftcurse. As far as I can tell Shaman is relatively balanced against those that have experience fighting it, but it does take some experience to not get locked quickly, and requires the ability to know when to run and to only attempt the kill when you have momentum over the Shaman.
    Achimrst
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Xinna said:

    I probably wouldn't make paralyse un-swiftable though. If anything, maybe have it on a cooldown. You can only paralyse swiftcurse once every 2 curses (once every 1.5 seconds?). This essentially makes it the same as other classes. Paralyse, asthma, paralyse, asthma is basically like using curare/kalmia dstab, etc.

    I've actually suggested this as a solution to others (Mizik) in the past, if it is found that this is something that needs to be nerfed.
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,240 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 2015
    Why would you not use prep against a person that runs against you? That's the strength of Shaman. It integrates both momentum and prep offence seamlessly. 

    Did you not necro your thread asking for Shaman room hinder explaining your newfound opinion that Shamans don't need room hinder and you were overlooking something? Now I'm confused, do you feel they do actually need it again to be effective? 

    I'm sorry for the brief reply, at work atm. You put in the effort to post a full reply so I'll give you one of my own opinion when I get home.
    Xinna
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited March 2015
    People have no need to run against Shaman if they're building prep for the most part, as prepping tends to use fashion which means curses momentum is irrelevant. If the Shaman begins cursing, the opponent can run if they lose momentum and come back until they have it. While Shaman can prep via curses, running quickly after cursing begins like this prevents the Shaman from lowering the opponent's mana enough to begin gaining fashions off of curses.

    I'm not arguing for room hindrance for Shamans, I'm saying it's something that should be used against Shamans, as it is a significant factor in how the class is currently balanced.
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,240 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 2015
    But if you prep, then you have ways to stop movement for an extended period of time (longer than any class in the game other than Jester) so it should be a non-issue. Shaman is definitely more effective as a prep class that uses Curses as a means of offence=defence and to achieve quick locks/bleed bursts in group fights. I wouldn't be surprised if any Shaman struggled a bit if they focused more on a momentum offence with Curses at the forefront. 

    Which means against classes such as Apostate (re: your fights against Ayoxele) are in a worst position against Shaman than Shamans are against them, because you don't lose your overall end-game prep if you leave the room for a breather.
    XinnaAchimrst
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Right, but it should be noted that we're also one of the few classes in the game where, when someone is fully hindered (prone, etc) that there's a defense other than appropriate tumbling, namely curseward.

    Ayoxele was an interesting case, due to gravehands keeping me stuck in the room he required significantly more prep to begin to attempt anything. He ran appropriately to prevent locks/maligus and he used curseward when necessary to prevent locks when I used my prep to attempt to lock him. In cases where his momentum didn't manage to beat me before I got enough fashions to do anything to him, he usually managed to defend successfully via curseward, refuge or blackwind when he saw the doll being used.

    Yes, Shaman preps for kills. But they don't have anything nearly as guaranteed as dsb to finish people off once they use their prep. That being said, more often than not the use of proper prep does work, but I don't believe this in particular is a balance issue, as virtually every prep class has a large opportunity to win once they've used their prep.
  • XinnaXinna Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited March 2015
    Amranu said:
    Shaman paralysis I've seen worked around beautifully by pretty much every class. Against affliction classes I often find that the ability to curse paralysis so quickly is irrelevant, as it's all about who has momentum. Against Serpents, Apostates and dual cut/s&b knights there are often times when I can only get in one curse for every one dstab/evileyes/dsl for 3-4 attacks in a row due to them having momentum over me. I don't particularly see it as overpowered, especially given that while initially following the changes I did have an absurd win rate, I am already significantly closer to 50/50 (or far, far below in some cases) when it comes to win rate.

    For instance, Proficy who I was initially destroying, figured out to 1) run if he doesn't have momentum, 2) how to kill me when he does. Against Ayoxele, my win rate is in the toilet and this is largely due to his ability to run when needed against one of the few classes that have no way to stop movement, and take advantage of his momentum when he gains it to lock me. Against Mizik, who has recently switched to Serpent I currently have a 60% win rate (3/5) but prior to his very recent switch he had more wins than I did against me, and I've found Serpent to be a very interesting match against Shaman due to their ability to lock far, far quicker than my own.

    Hell, I even have a ~50% win rate against Yurdan's dual blunt, who has no hinder to speak of. The problem with Shaman is not it's affliction speed, which is mediocre except when going for lock, at which point it is certainly above average. Nor is it with curseward, which when used smartly just like shield against can completely shut down my momentum. We already have to swiftcurse every 8-10 curses which effectively acts as the curseward idea above to slow momentum. Curseward is equivalent to a shield that can be used while hindered at the cost of a longer eq time, and when used smartly makes locking virtually impossible (especially against any class with active or passive curing). The problem with curseward isn't curseward, but people's refusal to learn to use it properly.

    Coagulate + soulscourge is an interesting combination, and certainly one of the quickest affliction rates when used together in the game. This is not to say it needs to be nerfed though. Alchemists, with prep are able to deliver 4 locking afflicts in one move. Serpents are capable of delivering 3 lock afflicts at once, have a higher base affliction speed as well as being able to lock far quicker than Shaman with far less momentum due to the utility of hypnosis. Bards are able to stun for to allow for 4 afflictions with Percussia for the lock, with very little prep. Meanwhile, coagulate requires momentum (150 bleeding, which usually requires haemophilia to also be stuck as well as several curses following that). And soulscourge requires some prep in the vodun to use, and requires rebuilding that prep if the lock attempt fails.

    If people want curseward to act more like shield, that's fine and I've already submitted a classlead to that effect.


    tl;dr Shaman is one of the few classes that have no room hinder, making paralysis fine as you can run and come back until you gain momentum over the Shaman. Curseward is pretty useful in it's current role in my opinion, but could be made to act similar to shield if that's what people want, as curses is already time limited by swiftcurse. As far as I can tell Shaman is relatively balanced against those that have experience fighting it, but it does take some experience to not get locked quickly, and requires the ability to know when to run and to only attempt the kill when you have momentum over the Shaman.


    I don't really have a huge problem with shaman, as is, but I do think you're misrepresenting its analogy to other classes quite a bit.

    Apostate is much slower at locking than shaman, unless you're being daegger hunted. They are also much more confined to a single room and thus harmed more by a target running (as well as having no "prep" option for those who run).

    Serpent needs to hypnotise, and once they snap, if you defend and wait out the hypnosis, they can't do anything until they hypnotise again. That is not "no prep required."

    Bard is a bit difficult to discuss since percussia is weird and dumb. I don't ever use it in 1v1 personally, it's bound to get nerfed, and, again, is hardly "no prep." Each percussia you play has 4+ sec equilibrium. And you cannot deliver 4 afflictions within one percussia stun (you can do three if timed extremely well). But it is not something you can simply fire at someone in the middle of a fight, even as is. You either have to throw yourself off eq for substantial periods of time while your target is standing there with you, and hope they don't do anything to throw off your timing, or run away and prep a chain in another room, then return, in which case, be wary when a bard leaves for a substantial period of time and returns! But again, it shouldn't stay as is, so I wouldn't base "balancing" arguments on it.

    The better example about bard is that it can Curare jab, wait for magnesium eat, sing epic, to keep paralysis on just like a shaman can.

    Curseward is quite different from shield because you can't use it while having an offense (since it has a long equilibrium cost) and you can't use it last minute (since it takes time to come up). With shield, you basically just try to race your opponent's momentum with your own, then fall back on shield when you realize you are losing. You can't really do that with curseward, since you can't put it up immediately. You can run, sure.

    But I think the main argument is that shaman paralysis spam is worse than other momentum classes' hindering and thus shaman should always gain the momentum advantage (which would obviously be a huge problem for non-prep classes, even if they can run, since they'll never be able to kill). Is this true? Idk. But most of your post doesn't address it.

    Edit: Pretty sure shaman can essentially 100% guaranteed kill someone with enough prep. You're undervaluing Vodun if you think it's worse than DSB. Though, it is obviously not as simple to use. But people also aren't really discussing Vodun atm. They're just saying you should have to go there, against a good opponent, just like a knight might have to go to DSB, rather than simply killing with DSLs!

  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited March 2015
    Momentum gaining against Shaman: Shaman can gain momentum over others, and the quick paralysis does assist with this, however with the limitations of swiftcurse as well as the inately slow speed of curses over other affliction classes (Serpents 1.7 second, Deadeyes 1.8 seconds compared with Shaman ~2 second for two curses) this actually proves to be difficult to achieve. While often I can manage to gain momentum against someone that had it over me, this is generally more than enough time for the opponent to build enough momentum to attempt to kill me. The exception to this may be Alchemist, but even they can maintain momentum over me for long enough to attempt to bleed me out, and Proficy does this successfully about half the time versus me now.

    Shaman isn't 100% guaranteed lock with vodun, but against someone that does not precache a considerable amount of herbs, quad limb mangle is not pleasant at all. We do certainly have nice tricks though, that's for sure. But yeah, I think we all agree vodun isn't really the problem here. It's my opinion that if something needs to be done with curse paralysis, it should be given a cooldown so that it cannot be doubled up. I don't think this should honestly be the case however. Shaman has a comparatively slow affliction rate initially until going for the lock as well as having no ability to hinder people to stay for the lock without the use of prep, making Shaman's ability to gain momentum with double paralysis not as large of a problem as it would be for those that can keep people around.
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,240 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited March 2015
    Deadeyes is 2.1 for the record, and that's with nimble. 2.3 without. Serpent is 2.1 at 16 dex and no artefact dirk. You need a Thoth to reach the 1.7 you quoted. Shaman is 1.6 with two curses assumig a balance time of .8 per. It may have been slowed down, I don't remember. Why is herb precache an issue with pre outr? You have addiction on demand. That's almost unbeatable as an offensive strategy so you may need to work that one out yourself
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited March 2015
    Jovolo said:
    Deadeyes is 2.1 for the record, and that's with nimble. 2.3 without. Serpent is 2.1 at 16 dex and no artefact dirk. You need a Thoth to reach the 1.7 you quoted. Shaman is 1.6 with two curses assumig a balance time of .8 per. It may have been slowed down, I don't remember. Why is herb precache an issue with pre outr? You have addiction on demand. That's almost unbeatable as an offensive strategy so you may need to work that one out yourself
    Paralyse (Curses)                             Known: Yes
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Syntax: CURSE <target> PARALYSE
    Works on/against: Adventurers
    Cooldown: 2.20 seconds of balance
    Resource: 55 mana
    Details:
    Cause your victims body to freeze with paralysis.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    One curse with nimble + swiftcurse is ~1 second, approximately 0.99 seconds, if the math is correct. 50% from swiftcurse, 10% from nimble.

    I couldn't even beat Ayoxele with quad limb breaks and addiction. Ayoxele OP :(
  • VaehlVaehl Member Posts: 962 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Honestly, Shaman is a very strong class. The only reason I'm something like 22-3 against you is because Apostate takes advantage of mistakes. Your offense had a lot of flaws that you didn't change at all, just relying on your curse script to lock. There are a lot of shaman strategies available that you're not touching mainly because your strategy involves quad mangling into autocurse while I avoid it defensively and rinse/repeat. Your defensive game wasn't amazing as well, but you're decent at modifying your priorities. 

    You said a lot of times after our fights that your offense is 'optimized' and I think that's where the problem lies. You're assuming there is no room for growth, and that's why you couldn't adapt to defeat me like a high tier fighter would. 

    There's a lot of power in shaman you're not using and like I said to you privately before, when you say you can't beat me because my class beats yours it is similar to you killing a mid tier apostate and them making the same claim about your class.
    XinnaJovolo
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    There's more than can be done with my offense, but I'm past the point of diminishing returns, which isn't helping my motivation.
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Amranu said:
    There's more than can be done with my offense, but I'm past the point of diminishing returns, which isn't helping my motivation.
    Sounds like you just need to take a breather and hunt or something for a bit to clear your mind.
    Shirszae
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