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Sentinel/Druid changes

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  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,283 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Rom said:
    Embrace is totally doable. Assuming they are curing normally and aren't blacked out or something, then it basically requires using shatter at least once which is probably why they made quarterstaff shatter-viable. You can break head for torc, but the only way to break head realistically is using bash with quarterstaff since Hydra doesn't have a Headclamp. This makes rebounding an issue, so have to time around that if they have that option. Can get around arc too by changing up the breaks, but won't get past Basilisk gaze!
    Have to keep in mind that Druid preps very fast and can bypass parry entirely. Also note that you can use Embrace immediately after using clamp.

    https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/833b3ae0
    ^ Example kill using most basic setup.

    Hot   
  • KuyKuy Member Posts: 1,497 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Thanks for posting, @Rom.  Everything seems pretty neato.  Would still like to see more interesting counterplay than "firelash this room five times."
    [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
  • KuyKuy Member Posts: 1,497 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Vhaedryn said:
    Caladbolg said:


    Oh the other hand with Eleusis' main class branch being changed like this it makes the game world slightly difficult because even if something isn't over powered it still seems like it when you don't understand how it works and how to avoid it.

    Except @Kuy does understand it and how it works, probably better than most people here because he's had to deal with those same exact mechanics for years. Don't discount his experience with demesne mechanics simply because it's a new skill. His points are very valid and this kind of mechanic ha been shown to be extremely unhealthy for combat as a whole in the other IRE games that have it.
    It doesn't look like it's gonna have the same problems, thankfully.  My only beef with it at the moment is how tough it is to declaim a room.  That said, it doesn't look like even that's gonna be an issue since it'll only really need to be done in LoS fights.  I'd still rather see something like sapling/terrain, though.
    [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
  • BlujixapugBlujixapug Member Posts: 1,833 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kuy said:

    Put a limit on the number of rooms you can reclaim at one time (can even add an artefact to increase this) and make it easier for an opponent to declaim a room (one firelash if owner is not present, two if they are) will make it far more palatable.
    I hope they don't limit the number of rooms. Being able to control a ridiculously large zone of land is genuinely impressive and hugely appealing. It's the type of crazy, awesome thing that tends to only go in at the inception of a skill or class, and is subsequently balanced out of existence: stuff like Pit, Phase, Deliverance. Their design in recent years has been much more conservative (what's the craziest thing about blademasters? Evade?) so I'm honestly surprised you can reclaim so many rooms.

    Reclamation does not seem to compare to the strength or importance of demesnes, so I don't think direct comparisons are appropriate. Lusternia is built around group fights, and getting your city's demesne down is a major part of those. The faction dynamic is not really the same in Achaea, and the role of Reclamation seems a bit different to the standard layering of room effects. Demesnes have all kinds of passive afflictions and relocation effects, while Reclamation seems to be mostly damage (which hits everyone), the active bind, instakill, and Forestwalk.
    image
    TaelZeon
  • KuyKuy Member Posts: 1,497 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Pretty sure I already just said that, heh.
    [2:41:24 AM] Kenway: I bet you smell like evergreen trees and you could wrestle boreal mammals but they'd rather just cuddle you
  • AthelasAthelas Cape Town South AfricaMember Posts: 325 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Today I had a network of 430+ rooms reclaimed. Mostly the western continent.

    Many gained from the refreshing bounty of healing provided by it.

    Reclamation capable Druids are now good people to know if you plan a group hunt.
  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited March 2015
    So I have a question about Subsume - it says you can make a mutual ally's reclaimed area your own, but does this mean that said ally loses it or do you both end up with a "claim" (a re-claim?) to the rooms?

    Having played Lusternia for a while, mostly as an aquamancer, I feel like Reclamation is exactly what wish demesnes had been - an interesting addition to the group combat landscape that doesn't demand that it become the focus of group combat.

    And the RP of it is just delicious. I'm absolutely loving this return to/strengthening of the idea that a big part of Nature is taking back the unnatural, that it's not just about "protecting" Nature. I can only hope that Eleusis gets more belligerent toward all the cities - I know a lot of people are hesitant to see cities align themselves against pretty much everyone else at once, but I think it's generally turned out well more often than it's turned out poorly (all of my fondest memories of Mhaldor were when the city was essentially at war with the entire world at once).

    The only thing I wish is that Reclamation were shared - if instead of owning personal demesnes, this was essentially a shared goal of the Druids to reclaim the world for Nature, functioning as a sort of conflict a la shrines and a sort of shared goal a la the Eschaton.

    It would require tweaking things a little bit, but would, I think, be pretty doable. One-time effects like Embrace and Forestwalk would just be possible in any Reclaimed room, any Druid could Expand the reclaimed area, instead of Druids having Reclaim perhaps one room in each forest is inherently Reclaimed (perhaps all forests automatically Reclaim themselves such that, every so many minutes, every unreclaimed forest room that is adjacent to a reclaimed forest room becomes Reclaimed), all ambient reclamation-wide effects would only apply to reclaimed rooms in the area, still a cap of three effects in an area (not per Reclamation user), and those more-skilled in Reclamation can change the area effects set by those less-skilled like smudge (maybe lesser-skilled Reclamation users can change them too, but it takes a longer balance or has a chance to fail). The ambient effects could be "permanent" (not go away when whoever sets them leaves the area - only when there are no longer any Reclaimed rooms in the area), and would serve as a nice replacement for the much-maligned forest defs.

    Probably far too late to do anything like that, but one can dream.
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Forestwalk is exactly why reclaimed areas shouldn't be usable by more than one person.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    Well, make it area-only too. It's not like Druids are lacking for transportation utility abilities what with Groves.
    Theris
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,264 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    What does not really make much sense at all is being able to 'reclaim' forests and such as it stands now. I mean, they are part of nature already.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    Tael
  • ValariaValaria Member Posts: 400 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Tael said:
    Well, make it area-only too. It's not like Druids are lacking for transportation utility abilities what with Groves.

    if it is area-only too, then it made 'reclamation' vibe going moot. if you want to stop forestwalk, simply firelash or exterminate. that is good enough for a drawback.

    2015/01/12 Tecton, the Terraformer has bestowed His divine favour upon you. It will last for approximately 1 Achaean month.
  • ZarhanZarhan Member Posts: 9
    Artemis said:
    Kenway said:
    I am crying because these look so gods damn amazing and Sentinel is the only class I've ever loved besides Runie... WHY CANT WE BE YOU IN CYRENE
    First, you desecrate My forest to build a city. Now, you want the skills of those who who dedicate their lives for Nature. What is next?!?! Killing kittens?!?!
    You rip into a tiny black kitten with your massive, deadly claws.
    You have slain a tiny black kitten, retrieving the corpse.

    Yes, killing kittens is next.

    HalosBorran
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,086 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Need a *gasp* button. :disappointed: 
               My wing tips waltz across naive
                     Wood floors they creak
                  Innocently down the stairs

                          Drag melody
    My percussive feet serve cobweb headaches as a
              Matching set of marching clocks
                The slumbering apparitions
              That they've come to wake up
    YaeRazzlo
  • TrillianaTrilliana Member Posts: 1,989 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Zarhan said:
    Artemis said:
    Kenway said:
    I am crying because these look so gods damn amazing and Sentinel is the only class I've ever loved besides Runie... WHY CANT WE BE YOU IN CYRENE
    First, you desecrate My forest to build a city. Now, you want the skills of those who who dedicate their lives for Nature. What is next?!?! Killing kittens?!?!
    You rip into a tiny black kitten with your massive, deadly claws.
    You have slain a tiny black kitten, retrieving the corpse.

    Yes, killing kittens is next.

    Zarhan grasps the corpse of a tiny black kitten in his claws as his powerful jaws tear the hapless body in two. Gore drips slowly from his maw as he consumes the mutilated pieces at his leisure.


    Poor Blaken... I'll miss you while you're gone
    meh


  • SarathaiSarathai Member Posts: 2,139 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tael said:
    So I have a question about Subsume - it says you can make a mutual ally's reclaimed area your own, but does this mean that said ally loses it or do you both end up with a "claim" (a re-claim?) to the rooms?
    They completely lose it. It'd make for a mildly trollish tactic. Mutually ally with somebody, subsume their network, unally them, then laugh. Either they have to wait for you to log out for a long enough period, go around firelashing every single room (if you have a big network, this is unlikely to happen), or hope that you get bored and relinquish it.

    Tael said:
    It's not like Druids are lacking for transportation utility abilities what with Groves.
    Druids do already have Flow, Gate (local-area and grove-to-anywhere variations), Return, Isolation and Track.

    Forestwalk doesn't really add anything we don't already possess except (I suppose) the ability to transport ourselves to indoor rooms that are non-forest without needing to be in our grove first (although the lesser variant, from a quarterstaff, can be used from anywhere but is area-only). Actually, Forestwalk would probably never get used once somebody reaches Gate in Groves for that reason. I think, in theory, the principle is that it's balanced as anywhere-to-anywhere by the fact that it only works within your network, so you have to establish said network first.

    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



    Tael
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Has anyone tested halophilic? I'd expect it to be a much better counter than firelash, but I won't be home for a couple weeks so it's hard to try it myself.
  • NizanaNizana Member Posts: 68 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Sena I asked somebody about it. What I was told implied that it is essentially an Alchemist Firelash. Several applications to kill a reclaimed room.

  • NaverreNaverre Member Posts: 304 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Is Thrust accuracy/damage based on Skirmishing level?

    I'm wondering why Sentinels don't start with Skirmishing, because from what I can tell, thrust is completely superior to maul, never mind the earlier hunting abilities: same balance, now with standard spear, more damage at trans skirmishing, and comes a helluva lot sooner than maul, lesson-wise.

    Also, you get Rivestrike in Skirmishing to bypass shields when hunting. I think the damage is greater than or equal to maul and still breaks shield first, but I forget.

    Might be good to replace Woodlore with Skirmishing as a pre-embrace ability (though admittedly, you'd lose barkskin right off the bat. Oh well, BM's don't get toughness until they embrace themselves, and Sents get fairly decent armour).

    Thoughts?
  • KhorusKhorus Member Posts: 27 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    How long does reclamation take?
  • AmranuAmranu Member Posts: 725 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    3 seconds channeled
  • TharvisTharvis The Land of Beer and Chocolate!Member Posts: 3,107 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    does Signal inform the owner of the reclaimed areas being destroyed if they're offline, or do they only get the notification when online?
    Aurora says, "Tharvis, why are you always breaking things?!"
    Artemis says, "You are so high maintenance, Tharvis, gosh."
    Tecton says, "It's still your fault, Tharvis."

  • AthelasAthelas Cape Town South AfricaMember Posts: 325 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I got messages when I lost a reclaimed area due to unnatural events.
    Yae
  • NicaaraNicaara Member Posts: 84 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Naverre said:
    Is Thrust accuracy/damage based on Skirmishing level?

    I'm wondering why Sentinels don't start with Skirmishing, because from what I can tell, thrust is completely superior to maul, never mind the earlier hunting abilities: same balance, now with standard spear, more damage at trans skirmishing, and comes a helluva lot sooner than maul, lesson-wise.

    Also, you get Rivestrike in Skirmishing to bypass shields when hunting. I think the damage is greater than or equal to maul and still breaks shield first, but I forget.

    Might be good to replace Woodlore with Skirmishing as a pre-embrace ability (though admittedly, you'd lose barkskin right off the bat. Oh well, BM's don't get toughness until they embrace themselves, and Sents get fairly decent armour).

    Thoughts?
    I've been using thrust for hunting since the changes. I went tested maul vs thrust on gnolls, orc guards, and Aalen grizzly bears - and thrust, at least when I tested it, did ~5% more of their remaining health pool per hit than maul did, depending on mob.

    Here's the percentages from orcs and bears.

    Orc Soldier - Thrust - | 71 | 45 | 17 | 0  |
    Orc Soldier - Maul ---| 78 | 57 | 35 | 14 | 0 |

    Grizzly Bear - Thrust -| 84 | 69 | 55 | 40 | 25 | 10 | 0   |
    Grizzly Bear - Maul -- | 88 | 77 | 65 | 54 | 42 | 31 | 20 | 8 | 0 |

    On bigger mobs, it really adds up!

    My stats - 14str, 14dex, nimble. Weapon stats - regular old spear - 92dmg, 211tohit, 195spd.

    Maul's base balance cost (from AB MAUL) is 3.25. Thrust is based off of weapon speed and stuff. Maul's damage is based only off of strength, I'm not sure what Thrust is affected by other than weapon damage. Cause I'm a noob.

    I was informed Thrust's balance cost is 3.4, and Maul's is 3.006 with 11 dexterity and nimble traited. HTML client (yeah yeah I know, I'll get Mudlet sometime) only shows me timestamps down to seconds, but Thrust is at most 3 seconds for me (14dex and nimble), and Maul is no less than 3.

    However with testing these abilities on someone with barkskin and chain mail, thrust did 486 damage, and maul did a whopping 989. Armor penetration I guess? It would seem the damage superiority applies only to denizens.

    Also there's this for anyone who didn't see it: The balance cost of maul against denizens has been decreased to bring it in line with its speed against players, and its damage has been recalculated to balance against the faster speed. - Mortori, Announce News 4293

    So.. if thrust is really better for bashing, at least enough to matter, I suppose the easiest thing to do would be either, increase maul damage vs denizens, bring down thrust damage vs denizens, or ignore it. Tossing Woodlore or Meta into the embrace skill spot wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. Well.. it would if Woodlore didn't have all those nice essential defenses and utility skills, but there's nowhere else to put em.
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,304 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sigh....as if Sentinel hasn't already been the source of my envy as a class.


  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,871 Achaean staff

    Halophilic is similar to firelash in that it takes multiple uses, but the number of uses is less and the balance is faster. It also stacks with firelash.

    Reclamation is 3 seconds in the forest, 6 seconds outside. Instant in your grove.

    Sena
  • AchimrstAchimrst NatureMember Posts: 3,608 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Makarios said:

    Halophilic is similar to firelash in that it takes multiple uses, but the number of uses is less and the balance is faster. It also stacks with firelash.

    Reclamation is 3 seconds in the forest, 6 seconds outside. Instant in your grove.

    I wonder, does potency effect it?
  • NaverreNaverre Member Posts: 304 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Nicaara said:

    I was informed Thrust's balance cost is 3.4, and Maul's is 3.006 with 11 dexterity and nimble traited. HTML client (yeah yeah I know, I'll get Mudlet sometime) only shows me timestamps down to seconds, but Thrust is at most 3 seconds for me (14dex and nimble), and Maul is no less than 3.

    11 dex and nimble, with a standard spear (92/211/195), I get 2.5 - 2.8 second thrusts against gnolls. Maul settles right around 3 seconds.

    But, that's also with trans skirmishing. I don't have a Sent with less than trans, so I can't attest to accuracy, damage, or speed scaling with the skill.
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Dex doesn't affect balance at all, except for certain serpent abilities.
    Rom
  • BorranBorran Member Posts: 845 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Moar talk of Sentnels plz. I must get my fix! 

  • ComitisComitis Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    On my Sentinel I actually use returning to hunt. I have a 1.6 second balance time to throw again. I see alot more crits this way, and I'm able to hit and run quicker.
    Borran
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