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How to Become a Top Tier Combatant

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  • AddamaAddama Member Posts: 947 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Ah, no, I certainly agree that Runewarden is strong.  It's fun because if I'm patient (and the opponent doesn't decide to run and hide midway through my prep) I have a very good chance of winning, despite not having any arties.  I can't really say that about most classes. 

    But it is frustrating that a) competent opponents do duck out when they know I've been hitting them a lot and haven't actually broken any of their limbs yet, and b) I can't blame them for doing this because they only need to wait three minutes, a mechanic that almost encourages one to run from limb prep.  On one hand, I wish that limb prep were more like Puppetry in that there's no resetting timer so that running temporarily wouldn't be a solution, and on the other hand, I know this can't be done because then everybody would get their limbs pre-prepped to throw off limb counters.

    So I was venting a certain amount of frustration at the shortfall of my class, but I'm also not spouting "That's it, I'm switching to BM" because I'm actually happy being Runewarden.
    ~Kresslack's obsession~
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

    Part of being "really good" at combat is incorporating your opponents' momentum/prep into your own offensive and defensive strategy, without having to run away.  For example, prepping an arm break vs. a runie, and breaking arm as soon as you break the first limb in your setup (more viable for some classes than others, but just an example) is a great way to interfere with Runie setups without having to run away.  In fact, running is usually not the best idea, since you have lunge/engage, block, and wunjo/nairat to prevent/discourage running in general.  Infernal/Paladin have even better options with gravehands/piety.

    It takes real talent (and a good self-limb-counter helps) to know when you need to seriously focus on survival - but it takes an "expert" to work these methods into their own offensive strategy - sometimes even to the point of using psychology to capitalize on your perceived momentum (it's so easy to lock knights when they think they're about to get a DSB/riftlock/vivi/damnation, for example).

    Something to keep in mind is that there is no substitute for experience when it comes to high-end combat.  Theory isn't the end of the road, it's the beginning.  Achaean combat is also (usually) complex enough that actually learning individual player mindsets and techniques can actually be just as valuable, if not moreso, than knowledge of their class abilities/strategies.  A simple example of this would be the several people I know to be very, very aggressive/reckless in combat, to the point where it could be considered hubris.  Simple walking out of their room and using Kaido Deliverance would result in them lunging into their deaths, even multiple times per day - because for some people, the concept of their perceived awesomeness failing to result in victory is impossible for them to even consider.  Another example at the opposite end of the spectrum are players that are visibly not very confident with their offense or curing, who can be psychologically triggered to turtle by simply snapping them, or using creative illusions.

    In theoretical combat theory, Kaido Deliverance should never kill anyone, and snapping people without having even started hypnosis doesn't actually do anything.  Yet, they're very effective when used correctly.

    Just takes a lot of experience - which I think it's fair to say you're making good progress on.
    Dochitha
  • AepasAepas Member Posts: 1,619 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Addama said:
    Ah, no, I certainly agree that Runewarden is strong.  It's fun because if I'm patient (and the opponent doesn't decide to run and hide midway through my prep) I have a very good chance of winning, despite not having any arties.  I can't really say that about most classes. 

    gonna go ahead and say no.
    Replies the scorpion: "It's my nature..."
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,270 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Why?
    JhuiRomAtalkez
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,378 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I mean you would have to define strong. The majority of classes in achaea are "You mess up and I will win" classes, thus technically they are all similar and people tend to win out on the psychological level. Then you have the small pool of classes (Infernal, Alchemist, Monk, Sylvan) which are more like the "I am messing you up (even if I can't outright kill you in certain situations) so you will have to give up or wait until i get bored" classes (artefacts/relics can flip some classes through categories). Then you have priest, magi and in a grove druid/sylvan which are "I mess up (severely) and you will win" classes. Though I think magi/sylvan got nerfed recently in a certain regards to that though groves are still obscenely strong against certain classes.

    You also have people that view what classes are OP differently because they define different outcomes as victories and believe a "fair fight" with arbitrary rules regarding use/disuse of certain abilities is what defines the also semi arbitrary "balance" value which has some correlation to certain groups vision of what is fun in the game, and there is the admin defined "balance" value which I assume is based on player retention mixed with feedback and activity divided by the orbit of the biggest black hole in the andromeda galaxy divided by the number of fish shaped rocks in the rings around saturn etc.

    In my experience, there are always people with drive to be effective in any class. Over the years, I haven't really noticed one class seriously losing out, though Monk has always been the most versatile class ever in terms of ranged and melee potential coupled with health potential and danger mitigation, but people always seem to find a way to exploit a class's potential if they really have the passion for it.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    JovoloKuy
  • SantarSantar Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,404 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Monks have been buffed constantly over the years as well. 

    image

    Ernam
  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,360 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    For one day only they should undo every monk nerf since the beginning of Achaea. Then the current population will be so shocked they won't be able to complain for a while. 
    RIP area-wide kai choke and dopple-hangedman. No idea why those things stuck around for as long as they did :neutral_face: 

    [ SnB PvP Guide | Link ]

    [ Runewarden Sparring Videos | Link ]
    Achilles
  • AddamaAddama Member Posts: 947 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Aepas said:
    Addama said:
    Ah, no, I certainly agree that Runewarden is strong.  It's fun because if I'm patient (and the opponent doesn't decide to run and hide midway through my prep) I have a very good chance of winning, despite not having any arties.  I can't really say that about most classes. 

    gonna go ahead and say no.
    I'll bite: Is this a jab at my class, or at me?
    ~Kresslack's obsession~
  • KenwayKenway San FranciscoMember Posts: 1,130 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Addama said:
    Aepas said:
    Addama said:
    Ah, no, I certainly agree that Runewarden is strong.  It's fun because if I'm patient (and the opponent doesn't decide to run and hide midway through my prep) I have a very good chance of winning, despite not having any arties.  I can't really say that about most classes. 

    gonna go ahead and say no.
    I'll bite: Is this a jab at my class, or at me?
    Gonna guess your class. Runie isn't hard to not die to if you know how and have a decent amount of health.

    - Limb Counter - Fracture Relapsing -
    "Honestly, I just love that it counts limbs." - Mizik Corten
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,529 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    For one day only they should undo every monk nerf since the beginning of Achaea. Then the current population will be so shocked they won't be able to complain for a while. 
    RIP area-wide kai choke and dopple-hangedman. No idea why those things stuck around for as long as they did :neutral_face: 
    Was more thinking old unstoppable (voyria) kai banish, unstoppable kai heal, trip block, stun/prone guarding, 69% health kai chokes that don't give breathing defense, 1.5s troll stun, unprone axekick that did more than 100% damage even to 5k health fullplated runewardens, 50% damage combos, ability to mind drain after every combo, and area wide kai gain.

    Might be forgetting some. 

    SeftinExelethrilWessux
  • KrossKross Member Posts: 779
    Cooper said:
    Cooper said:
    For one day only they should undo every monk nerf since the beginning of Achaea. Then the current population will be so shocked they won't be able to complain for a while. 
    RIP area-wide kai choke and dopple-hangedman. No idea why those things stuck around for as long as they did :neutral_face: 
    Was more thinking old unstoppable (voyria) kai banish, unstoppable kai heal, trip block, stun/prone guarding, 69% health kai chokes that don't give breathing defense, 1.5s troll stun, unprone axekick that did more than 100% damage even to 5k health fullplated runewardens, 50% damage combos, ability to mind drain after every combo, and area wide kai gain.

    Might be forgetting some. 
    Area-wide Kai choke and Mind Crush, Chain Mind throws, Disrupt stacking (though, not a monk nerf, more of a good balance to the disrupt  in general). And of course Dragon/monk being a 23 int Dragon area choking :).
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cooper said:
    ...unstoppable (voyria) kai banish...
    You're making me moist misty eyed

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
    CooperAlcinaeArador
  • WessuxWessux ChattanoogaMember Posts: 517 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Kenway said:
    Addama said:
    Aepas said:
    Addama said:
    Ah, no, I certainly agree that Runewarden is strong.  It's fun because if I'm patient (and the opponent doesn't decide to run and hide midway through my prep) I have a very good chance of winning, despite not having any arties.  I can't really say that about most classes. 

    gonna go ahead and say no.
    I'll bite: Is this a jab at my class, or at me?
    Gonna guess your class. Runie isn't hard to not die to if you know how and have a decent amount of health.
    He definitely meant class. Aepas won't just out right call someone out unless he hates your existence. But I second what Kenway said. 
    Invest in a 9mm retirement plan.
  • AddamaAddama Member Posts: 947 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Yeah.

    Also I figured out that the Raido "nerf" was actually a buff, since now forcing SAY RIDE HOME usually won't work B)
    ~Kresslack's obsession~
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,270 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited December 2014
    I'd maintain it's still more of a nerf than a buff.

    Though it does give the runewarden the convenience of not having to take the precautionary methods to prevent the force during a break chain.
    ExelethrilDalran
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,218 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Doesn't it also stop mushroom/say now as well?


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    NemutaurJovoloDalran
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,218 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Atalkez said:
    Doesn't it also stop mushroom/say now as well?
    Huge nerf but was needed.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • AddamaAddama Member Posts: 947 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Atalkez said:
    Atalkez said:
    Doesn't it also stop mushroom/say now as well?
    Huge nerf but was needed.
    Would it be a bad idea to trigger dropping a monolith when a mushroom happens?  Since dropping the mono just requires balance, doesn't take it?
    ~Kresslack's obsession~
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,218 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Addama said:
    Atalkez said:
    Atalkez said:
    Doesn't it also stop mushroom/say now as well?
    Huge nerf but was needed.
    Would it be a bad idea to trigger dropping a monolith when a mushroom happens?  Since dropping the mono just requires balance, doesn't take it?
    You wouldn't beat a one command action. You can only react to their line.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • AddamaAddama Member Posts: 947 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Atalkez said:
    Addama said:
    Atalkez said:
    Atalkez said:
    Doesn't it also stop mushroom/say now as well?
    Huge nerf but was needed.
    Would it be a bad idea to trigger dropping a monolith when a mushroom happens?  Since dropping the mono just requires balance, doesn't take it?
    You wouldn't beat a one command action. You can only react to their line.
    So is that a yes?  I don't know what the balance is for attaching a mushroom.  Otherwise, Raidoing out is just as trivial as:

    Attach mushroom to monolith
    Queue prepend eqbal say ride home

    Basically I'm asking if I can expect people to trigger dropping another monolith in response to mushrooming one.
    ~Kresslack's obsession~
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,218 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Vs alot of classes yes. Better to toggle for 1v1 or group setups


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Addama
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