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PK Rules and Consequences

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  • CarbineCarbine Member Posts: 24 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    >:) Keep it in ya pants woman, he's not even speaking the Lords tongue. <arrow coming your way when I see ya next>
    "Don't expect anything of yourself, and do what you know" - Legate Medi
    SherazadPraxidesBluef
  • ShibumiShibumi Member Posts: 223 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Iuneos said:
    As for the overboard thing,  when you start quantifying how many times do and so can do something based off an event,  you get more lawyering. No one wants lawyers
    @Iuneos I am a RL lawyer! How do you dare?  (joking)

    Of course, when I teach in Legal English classes, I always start with a joke form the book "Lawyers and other reptiles", but clearly this does not matter, doesn't it? 
    Light prevails, always
  • ShibumiShibumi Member Posts: 223 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I did turn pro with the belly-button thing.
    Light prevails, always
  • CarmellCarmell Eastern WashingtonMember Posts: 473 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Sarapis said:
    Cooper said:
    This discussion is pretty hilarious to me.

    Do none of you remember a few years ago and the 15 page long HELP PK page that EVERYONE hated and we worked on for years to get us to the current system?

    Trust me, you do not want to go back to having 100 rules you have to follow and with most situations outlined.



    This. It's like Groundhog Day. This is how PK rules have gone in Achaea:

    1. Early days - "Don't be a jerk."
    2. Problem - What "being a jerk" means is different to everyone.
    3. Clarifications - People asked for clarifications on specific situations.
    4. More clarifications - More clarifications requested by players.
    5 - 198. Yet more clarifications requested by players, ad nauseum, leading to said enormous HELP PK document and rules lawyering.
    199. People complain about too many specific rules.
    200. We go back to "Don't be a jerk", more or less.
    201. Problem - What "being a jerk" mean is different for everyone.
    202. Clarifications at request of players.
    203. You can see where this is going.

    So yeah, we're definitely not going to do the same thing again. 
    I'd say the Don't be a jerk is probably the biggest problem that I see from certain people.  I finally figured out how to fix that I hope.  Honestly not everyone cares that much for PK and those that like to PK need to take that into consideration.  Which fits in the don't be a jerk model.
    SarapisBluefPraxides
  • BukariinBukariin Member Posts: 438 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    The essence of the "don't be a jerk" philosophy causing problems:

    "You're being a jerk."
    "No I'm not."

    I'd like, of course, for there to be a single, one-page HELP file that defines the PK rules so succinctly that any disagreement can be fixed merely by pointing to it, but since everybody is a PK lawyer these days you're still going to end up with disagreements.
    Praxides
  • RazhaRazha Member Posts: 108 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    The only rule should be if you do not have a valid roleplay reason to kill someone (excluding them belonging to a faction you or your faction does not like) then don't kill them.
  • BukariinBukariin Member Posts: 438 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Razha said:
    The only rule should be if you do not have a valid roleplay reason to kill someone (excluding them belonging to a faction you or your faction does not like) then don't kill them.
    That's already the rule, but that doesn't protect novices who are corralled into joining factions, i.e. cities, to learn things about playing the game.  It also doesn't protect people against people who can invent roleplay excuses to kill non-combatants ("I hate Grooks" for example).  So that's where the clarification comes into play.

    Really, this is more the fault of bad apples who are so desperate to kill things that won't fight back than faulty rules or rule makers.
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,304 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    There's also the part where death is meaningless from an RP perspective, so there's also the question of "How many PK opportunities does this valid roleplay reason grant me?"

    People say you shouldn't count PKs like that because its just like the old system, but if I defile a shrine and think I've got one, maybe two deaths coming to me, and @Jovolo thinks he can PK me for 2 weeks, then... there's a problem.
    image
    BluefPraxides
  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2014

    Carmell said:
    Sarapis said:
    Cooper said:
    This discussion is pretty hilarious to me.

    Do none of you remember a few years ago and the 15 page long HELP PK page that EVERYONE hated and we worked on for years to get us to the current system?

    Trust me, you do not want to go back to having 100 rules you have to follow and with most situations outlined.



    This. It's like Groundhog Day. This is how PK rules have gone in Achaea:

    1. Early days - "Don't be a jerk."
    2. Problem - What "being a jerk" means is different to everyone.
    3. Clarifications - People asked for clarifications on specific situations.
    4. More clarifications - More clarifications requested by players.
    5 - 198. Yet more clarifications requested by players, ad nauseum, leading to said enormous HELP PK document and rules lawyering.
    199. People complain about too many specific rules.
    200. We go back to "Don't be a jerk", more or less.
    201. Problem - What "being a jerk" mean is different for everyone.
    202. Clarifications at request of players.
    203. You can see where this is going.

    So yeah, we're definitely not going to do the same thing again. 
    I'd say the Don't be a jerk is probably the biggest problem that I see from certain people.  I finally figured out how to fix that I hope.  Honestly not everyone cares that much for PK and those that like to PK need to take that into consideration.  Which fits in the don't be a jerk model.

    Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. 
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Not being a jerk is hard in a conflict-centric game. Though plenty of people avoid conflict in general, the fact that even Cyrene gets raided from time to time should speak for itself.

    I propose an alternative rule.

    If you must be a bastard, be a magnificent one.

    Or, in more boring terms, be a jerk ICly if it makes sense, as long as your OOC goal is to entertain other players. If they're a hardcore PvPer, this might involve PvP shenanigans, sure, but not everyone is a hardcore PvPer. For example, if they're a hardcore roleplayer who cares little for PvP, entertaining them might require dialogue and emoting and roleplaying, or something like that.

    If you cannot do that, if you cannot even try to do that, then you surely cannot expect to be entertained in return.
    UlrikeBluefJhaeliPraxides
  • CaladbolgCaladbolg Campbell County TNMember Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    o.o dear god this is a long thread

    Yae
  • JukilianJukilian Member Posts: 1,579 @ - Epic Achaean
    Praxides
  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited September 2014
    Silas said:
    Are non-coms also going to make an effort to PK with PvPers, then?
    Nim said:
    If they're a hardcore PvPer, this might involve PvP shenanigans, sure... 
    There is a vast difference between getting jumped continuously for 75 IC days because someone claims to hold multiple writs on you for defiling and dying once in an Ashtani raid during a city festival. 

    One situation drives conflict. The other is just being a jerk. 

    The bottom line is that there are all kinds of wonderful roleplay justifications to attack someone. Some of these are even encouraged through IC mechanisms like writs, bounties, and the Mark system. The best may be conflict-driven plots, but at the heart of all of them should be a simple understanding:

    We're all players in a game. When someone stops enjoying the game because of us (maybe they're getting attacked constantly, even if it is justified, or they're having to deal with a slew of frivolous issues, etc.) , we should be a little more retrospect.
    Praxides
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I stand by what I said. If a non-combatant doesn't find combat fun, and the PKer doesn't find anything the non-combatant wants to do fun, then perhaps they shouldn't play together rather than try to force the issue.

    The PKer can probably find plenty of other PK-oriented players to fight, and the non-com can probably find plenty of other roleplayers to roleplay with.

    That said, plenty of non-combatants do try to get into combat from what I've seen.

    Also, I think dismissing people's preferences is kind of weak and in poor taste.

    I do agree that people should not just issue over dumb things. Even if you don't really have an IC recourse, you could always politely ask the other person OOCly not to attack you or whatever and see how that goes before outright issuing them. I'm almost positive just about no one enjoys dealing with issues - I somewhat doubt even the admins like dealing with anything other than perhaps answering ISSUE ME-esque questions (and even those likely require a special, especially helpful personality to enjoy answering, I'm sure!).
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,154 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jacen said:
    There's also the part where death is meaningless from an RP perspective, so there's also the question of "How many PK opportunities does this valid roleplay reason grant me?"

    People say you shouldn't count PKs like that because its just like the old system, but if I defile a shrine and think I've got one, maybe two deaths coming to me, and @Jovolo thinks he can PK me for 2 weeks, then... there's a problem.
    I didn't really say that, Jacen. What I meant, is that you should be open to attacks for about a week after minor aggression towards an org. By minor aggression, I mean initiating conflict at times here and there with a few shrine defilements, roleplaying the villain towards that org etc. Obviously, this is within reason. I'm not saying you should be hunyed 24/7. If anything, my main point is that after that period of time, attacks made on you seem silly to me. This is why I don't like contracts/writs that take >months to complete. 

    This, though, is the main argument I'm trying to encapsulate: if you play the game with the mindset of "Defiled once... one death. Raided them, now I'll add one more death to the tally. I... I died THREE TIMES?!" That doesn't feel appropriate for an organic, living and breathing roleplay world. I know if I adopted that attitude I would struggle to interact with other orgs altogether. 

    Harassment is harassment. If someone comes and PK's you consistently for a week or even longer, without ample reasoning and interaction, then you have a problem. Fine, ask an admin for advice via ISSUE ME. Listen to them, and then take a leaf out of HELP COMMON SENSE.
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'd edit the "Jhui tells it like it is" thing and replace it with Jarrod's kitten, but I can't be bothered. I don't think anything more really needs to be said.
  • BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jarrod said:
    I think the biggest problem with people getting PKd unwillingly is the assumption that someone deserves to be PKd by some people.

    Agreed, or the confusion that they don't deserve to be PKd.

    I'd like to see a change to writs that simply adds a writ counter to the CONTRACTS screen. Then contracts won't show (letting the person know the writ is yielded but not who has the contract obviously). Bounties will show (although not who holds it, just the timing). Writs that can be acted on will and their remaining time will at least be understood by the defiler so there is no confusion as to why someone is attacking them a RL week after the fact.
    Praxides
  • ErnamErnam Member Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited September 2014
    @Florentino That sounds like a simple misunderstanding of PK/issue guidelines as defined by the rules.  The problem, in your example, is that the individual probably doesn't understand that in this case (as you describe it) your PK attempt was more or less justified.  Furthermore, it doesn't appear that he attempted any kind of resolution, including the most basic method of hiring a mark.

    If this story repeated itself multiple times (3+, at least), and you were the one who provoked the argument/aggressive action each time, that would be when filing an issue might be justified (since talking to you about it OOC is highly discouraged).

    Just to reiterate, he shouldn't have issued in this case, but that doesn't make it frivolous.  He simply needs to re-read the PK rules and make more of an attempt to retaliate for wrong-doings in-character before asking the admin for help.

    I don't think this issue would take more than 30 seconds for an admin to read and dismiss, with the same recommendation to the issuing player that I made above (read the rules).  While this unnecessary issue could have been avoided, I really don't see it as the travesty that the forum community makes it into.  I would expect all new players and midbies to go through a learning curve of when things like retaliation, contracts, and issues are appropriate, as they start getting into PK.

    I would also have to recommend that you employ the following logic.  If the player issued you for what you did, you should absolutely make the assumption that regardless of legality, your attack on his character was entirely unwelcome.  Regardless of whether or not the issue itself has merit, you should probably stop attacking him, without 100% clear, justified in-character reason to do so.  IMO, continuing to aggressively push on people who have made it known that your attacks are unwelcome, particularly after (or because) they issued you, is griefing.  I don't think you're doing that, but I certainly do see it often enough.

    "Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future."


          Manda  |  Godzilla  |  SLC
        DalranShirszae
      1. BluefBluef DelosMember Posts: 2,176 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        The only problem with what Ernam is proposing here is that far too often people claim that attacks and interactions as a whole are unwelcome while simultaneously doing things that will result in them getting attacked more. It's maddening. 
        SherazadJarrodSilasShirszae
      2. DrodakDrodak Member Posts: 84 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
        edited September 2014
        After having seen the same points being repeated endlessly in this thread I'd like to point out a couple of things.

        When someone sends out an issue the resolution that occurs is a basic math problem in assessing an individual from a clear state of mind, which is:
        Common sense - is a basic ability to perceive, understand, and judge things, which is shared by nearly all people, and can be reasonably expected of nearly all people without any need for debate.
        PLUS
        Emotion - a natural instinctive state of mind deriving from one's circumstances, mood, or relationships with others.
        DIVIDED BY
        Customer service - a series of activities designed to enhance the level of customer satisfaction – that is, the feeling that a product or service has met the customer expectation.

        I truly feel the current HELP PK is cut and dry. All of this is subjective and no story is told the same from both sides. Issues will exist so long as people have issues. Customer satisfaction is the dividing line and nobody is going to remove customer service that enjoys having customers. You could write a tome of the ages containing pk laws and all that is going to do is encourage people to exploit loopholes.
      3. BukariinBukariin Member Posts: 438 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
        Bluef said:
        The only problem with what Ernam is proposing here is that far too often people claim that attacks and interactions as a whole are unwelcome while simultaneously doing things that will result in them getting attacked more. It's maddening. 
        That and Ernam has an extremely liberal definition of "griefing" which apparently extends to "communicating with somebody that you just fought but did not kill"
        SherazadBluefErnamSilasShirszae
      4. JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,304 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Drodak said:

        I truly feel the current HELP PK is cut and dry. All of this is subjective and no story is told the same from both sides. Issues will exist so long as people have issues. Customer satisfaction is the dividing line and nobody is going to remove customer service that enjoys having customers. You could write a tome of the ages containing pk laws and all that is going to do is encourage people to exploit loopholes.
        Actually, it's just about as ambiguous as it could possibly be. 
        image
        Ernam
      5. DrodakDrodak Member Posts: 84 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
        Jacen said:
        Drodak said:

        I truly feel the current HELP PK is cut and dry. All of this is subjective and no story is told the same from both sides. Issues will exist so long as people have issues. Customer satisfaction is the dividing line and nobody is going to remove customer service that enjoys having customers. You could write a tome of the ages containing pk laws and all that is going to do is encourage people to exploit loopholes.
        Actually, it's just about as ambiguous as it could possibly be. 
        Exactly. What follows your bolded explains further.
      6. NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        Drodak said:
        Common sense - is a basic ability to perceive, understand, and judge things, which is shared by nearly all people, and can be reasonably expected of nearly all people without any need for debate.
        I don't believe in common sense. Furthermore, I believe that any belief that there is such a thing as common sense can only lead to trouble.
        DrodakShirszae
      7. MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,314 @@ - Legendary Achaean
        To be fair, I don't see why I have to waste my time killing someone that killed me. I can get the xp back faster bashing in most cases, and it is not like circular PK solves anything. 

        I PK people that are actively involved in doing something against me, and I expect to be PK'd if I am doing something that is acting against the beliefs of another player. The whole rulebook thing (even in it's current state) seems dumb to me. Sometimes you die, sometimes you kill people, no reason to force people to have revenge when they can just continue happily with their lives and pretend it never happened.

        -

        One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

        As drawn by Shayde
        hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
        SuladanShunsui
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