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Exterminations vs Rejuvenation

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  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,362 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    That would be cool if rejuvenation gave a buff rather than took a cost. 

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    Exelethril
  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,352 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Mishgul said:

    Forestals are a defensive class. Their abilities are all designed around the act of defending the forests, and supporting groups in getting around the forest. Implementing some sort of offensive skillset would probably require some rebalancing of all classes involved, which would also be a huge pain in the ass.

    It's not always fair to be on the defensive without an equivalent form of retaliation, mainly because aggressors get to choose the time and place, usually when it's convenient for them. 

    Also, exterminating 100 rooms takes roughly 20-ish minutes while rejuvenating/replanting 100 rooms is equivalent to 1.5 hours plus 30k-ish gold at today's market prices. There's some discrepancy there. 



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  • AthelasAthelas Cape Town South AfricaMember Posts: 324 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    This was supposed to be an idea, for @Sarapis‌ ;and @Tecton‌  to consider. I did not think it would end up being such a great discussion.

  • SuladanSuladan Member Posts: 193 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Athelas said:

    This was supposed to be an idea, for @Sarapis‌ ;and @Tecton‌  to consider. I did not think it would end up being such a great discussion.

    Welcome to the forums.

    The Truths hurt. Always.
    AlcinaeYae
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,362 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    There's nothing wrong with an overhaul. It's just that people want to see the system changed before they change the way they think, which I think is the wrong way to go about it personally.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    ShirszaeSherazad
  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2014

    Admittedly they would lack the cultural importance that comes from long-term association.

    In all fairness, you can't exactly hope some long-term association will magic itself into existence. This might be a short-term issue, but in the long-term I don't think it's really a problem. Just tie it into Mhaldorian culture in such a way that it can only grow.

    In an evil sort of way, not in a leafy way. Eh, well, I guess it can be in a leafy way too, just as long as it's an evil, corrupted sort of leafy.

    That's it! If Mhaldor wants a forest, give them a bloody forest or ten of their own to protect from Eleusis! Make it really, really big and vast, and scattered too!

    I think I originally had a point with this, but now I'm too busy thinking of how awesome a creepy Flowerdor forest could be. Like there could be dryad wraiths that appear innocent and cute and might even try to give you quests, but then you greet them and they try to eat your soul, or a bog in which you can't see anything even with nightsight on (does that even do anything???), but you can sort of hear things, and if you misstep you might run into lost souls and proceed to join them (at least 'til you EMBRACE DEATH).

  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,362 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    You can't just "tie it into Mhaldorian culture". Really need a better reason to be suggested before an argument can be formed.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,283 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Making Rejuvenate buff instead of require a cost is interesting, except that it flips the whole paradigm on its head, and in a few months we'd have Mhaldorians complaining in droves how extermination is so one-sided and that it invariably needs to be fixed for the good of the game instead.

    As Blujixapug has noted, there seems to be little will on the designer's part to amend this issue for whatever reason, despite a veritable trove of feedback and suggested alternatives. It's pretty bad when you have an active portion of the playerbase exhibiting learned helplessness when dealing with this mechanic as the administration has historically been so unwilling to accept or acknowledge issues with the system.

  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Mishgul said:

    You can't just "tie it into Mhaldorian culture". Really need a better reason to be suggested before an argument can be formed.

    (Mhaldor) Sartan angrily says, "I took a forest from Gaia Herself. Be prepared to protect it when the Eleusian dogs inevitably come to throw themselves upon Mhaldorian blades, and when their weakness overwhelms them and they cease covering its ground with their blood, sacrifice your own until its land is indistinguishable from that of My island."

    Then throw an event where Mhaldorians try to corrupt the entire forest, and every unique death counts or something like that. Don't tell the Eleusians that their deaths only help Mhaldor in the end, just let them go attack of their own silly mortal accords or something.

    Then hard work will have gone into the land becoming Mhaldorian. Hard player work that is. The real hard work of creating a new area (even if an existing forest is used, all the rooms would have to be changed!), new denizens (same!), new events and quests, etc. and some game mechanic where Mhaldorians benefit from the land remaining cursed while Eleusians can sort of undo that benefit (but not quite repair the land outright) should probably be done in advance maybe.

    Halos
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,065 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nim said:
    Mishgul said:

    You can't just "tie it into Mhaldorian culture". Really need a better reason to be suggested before an argument can be formed.

    (Mhaldor) Sartan angrily says, "I took a forest from Gaia Herself. Be prepared to protect it when the Eleusian dogs inevitably come to throw themselves upon Mhaldorian blades, and when their weakness overwhelms them and they cease covering its ground with their blood, sacrifice your own until its land is indistinguishable from that of My island."

    Then throw an event where Mhaldorians try to corrupt the entire forest, and every unique death counts or something like that. Don't tell the Eleusians that their deaths only help Mhaldor in the end, just let them go attack of their own silly mortal accords or something.

    Then hard work will have gone into the land becoming Mhaldorian. Hard player work that is. The real hard work of creating a new area (even if an existing forest is used, all the rooms would have to be changed!), new denizens (same!), new events and quests, etc. and some game mechanic where Mhaldorians benefit from the land remaining cursed while Eleusians can sort of undo that benefit (but not quite repair the land outright) should probably be done in advance maybe.

    Hello Shala-Khulia event.

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                     Wood floors they creak
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  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    See the reason they can't win is because there's nothing to win.

    You give Mhaldor something they can hurt, and maybe they can win.

    You make it so that it originally belonged to Eleusis and it becomes personal.

    The whole "it's going to happen no matter what they do" bit was probably an awful idea, and I hope they don't actually include that, but there are two ways it can go, one is that the event happens and then they do builder stuff, and the other is they do builder stuff and then the event happens.

    The first one means the event's going to be a really long event. The second one means they're going to hate it if they have to redo all the stuff they built (and that it still could be a really long event if they go ahead and do that).

  • NimNim Member Posts: 2,015 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2014

    @Arditi: Yeah, but... isn't that the problem with conflict in Achaea in general?

    I guess it would be OOC for Mhaldor to suddenly have to protect something? I don't know, I think maybe it could still be done in the form of diabolic plots that have a realistic chance of failing if they don't protect it, preferably in a way that doesn't require constant administrative oversight, but maybe they're OK not only with being beaten down, but with failing too.

    Maybe Eleusis could find a way to injure Sartan himself?

    Maybe there just should be no attempts to give Eleusis a way to attack back, and exterminations should just be deleted as an inherently flawed system?

    edit: and if they are okay with failing, then it sounds like Mhaldor has a problem too. I get that they're supposed to be villains, and accepting defeat gracefully is important if they're going to play the fall guy a lot, but I think it's terribly cliche for the villains to always lose, and besides in terms of villains, right now Cyrene is the only city that isn't in some way "villainous," so I don't think they need to play that role anymore honestly.

  • ArditiArditi Member Posts: 841 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited August 2014

    The problem is that conflict between cities is a zero-sum game.

    Mhaldor wins, the forests burn. Eleusis wins, Mhaldor gets its teeth kicked in and sulks for a few days while they reraise shrines and guards. So on, so forth. Same for every other organization: Ourania drops a few moon rocks on Mhaldor and Apollyon's temple, Mhaldor sulks. Mhaldor razes Ourania's order, Ouranians sulk and reraise shrines and call for Ashtan who kicks Mhaldor's teeth in. I could go on.

    What actually matters is conflict between players. Conflict between players is where you actually get something out of losing.

    Taking the time to develop the RP behind the mechanical conflict is the difference between a good rivalry where you can say "Yeah, I lose every time to that @Strata / @Antidas bastard but it's still fun" and the boredom that is "Oh hey, @Santar's ganking people. Let's go sort that one ou--oh, he shipreturned. Welp."

    Nim
  • AthelasAthelas Cape Town South AfricaMember Posts: 324 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    Or maybe, just maybe, we can get back on topic and look at actual suggestions for BALANCING, that were put forward in the original post.

    Sherazad
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,283 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Mhaldorian RP is basically that kid in the street who invented his own Yu-Gi-Oh cards that were better than everyone else's always, no matter what situation you were in. That's really all it boils down to. They are flat out incapable of losing.

    In fact, Achaea's entire conflict paradigm is centered on the fact that no faction can ever truly "lose" as the world itself is contiguous and so long as even a single player is associated with said faction, there's no way that they can ever fall out of contextual relevance given how the prevailing narrative is written (cough Darkness cough). See the Divines who died during the Worldreaver affair and note that almost nothing in regard to their aforementioned domains has changed. Shallam got destroyed for heaven's sake, and it's basically back again in a different skin with slightly different people.

    This is nestled in Achaea's roots, and is what makes people so hesitant to even consider "losing" RP since there's no basis for that at a mechanical level. Permanent consequences need to be introduced for losing wars - something people can look back on and think "oh that's where the Village got destroyed by Mhaldor in the great '61-'62 war.". Extermination is a prime example of this mechanical reliance on transience to moderate gameplay - it causes people to be angry, but over what? Rejuvenation happens, and then things go back to normal. It's basically as if the exterminator never did anything of import in the first place. Guard bashing is the same - guards die, so what? You just hire more. Run out of gold to hire them with? City effort to bash up more gold. There's no permanence to anything.

    Does that sound familiar to you? Like any of the cityvscity wars that have happened in the past five years? Has Hashan had any lasting consequences? Mhaldor?

    Permanence of consequence needs to be introduced to Achaean affairs proper, or this game is just going to simmer in a pool of its own drivel, cycling between groups of players before it slides into the depths of obscurity. I've seen this happen before on other games.

  • ArditiArditi Member Posts: 841 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited August 2014
    Athelas said:

    Or maybe, just maybe, we can get back on topic and look at actual suggestions for BALANCING, that were put forward in the original post.

    All right, let's see.

    We can fiddle with the numbers on extermination/rejuvenation and make it really really hard to exterminate and really really easy to rejuvenate, since that will teach Mhaldor a firm lesson not to pick on poor little Eleusis. We can make it so that necromancers can only exterminate one room, since groves users can only have one grove, that would make it fair and balanced. We can make it free to rejuvenate, since a few thousand gold is way too much to spend.

    Or we can look at the actual issue, which is that extermination is the means towards actual meaningful conflict, which would require Eleusis to do something other than mindlessly go out and rejuvenate/preserve every room and Mhaldor to do something beyond
    "10 ARE FOREST DEFENSES HITTING US IF SO GOTO 20
    20 EXTERMINATE GOTO 10"

    Unfortunately, meaningful conflict requires both sides to come to the party. I laughed my ass off at the Mhaldorian terms of surrender for Eleusis because they were way too easy. Unfortunately, Eleusis didn't bite and now we're stuck here, whining once again about forest conflict and exterminations.

    The system sucks, but nobody's working within it to change it.

    (P.S: You want to talk about horrible unbalanced mechanics? Go get yourself involved in a warp war and we'll talk.)

  • AthelasAthelas Cape Town South AfricaMember Posts: 324 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    Here are the things this thread are about in terms of the Original post:

    1. How to balance the use of extermination with regard to rejuvenation, through the use of any one of three suggested changes, that focus on existing game mechanics.
    2. Improve the levels fun and interaction, for all players on both sides of the conflict.

    If you are responding on this thread without having the above as a central theme of your response, you are either trolling or need to start your own thread.

    Here are the things that this thread are NOT about in terms of the Original post:

    1. Mhaldor/Mhaldorians Rule/suck
    2. Eleusis/Eleusians Rule/suck
    3. The war system is broken/inadequate
    4. Winning/Losing war should/should not be RP based
    5. My RP is better than yours
    6. You RP is better than mine
    7. All ur base R belong to us.
    8. I am right, you are wrong.
    9. You are right, I am wrong.

    Focus people, focus!

    This game does not revolve around any one individual, and neither does this forum. Stop the complaints and get to actually dealing with the issue.

    i.e. Stop feeling and start thinking!

    And please, for the love of @Sarapis, re-read the original post!

  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2014

    I agree with Carmain's plan of 'Make protecting the forest an Ashtani job'.

    Get back to the good old days of dreading accidentally pathing through a forest room as an enemy.


    Also, Mizik could be Sentinel, everyone wins! (Everyone here being people Mizik doesn't want to kill)

    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    Mizik
  • AepasAepas Member Posts: 1,619 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Daeir said:

    Mhaldorian RP is basically that kid in the street who invented his own Yu-Gi-Oh cards that were better than everyone else's always, no matter what situation you were in.


    Sounds like you lost at Yu-Hi-Oh a lot.

    Also has no understanding of mdor arpee.

    Replies the scorpion: "It's my nature..."
  • SherazadSherazad Planef UrthMember Posts: 956 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited August 2014
    Daeir said:

    Mhaldorian RP is basically that kid in the street who invented his own Yu-Gi-Oh cards that were better than everyone else's always, no matter what situation you were in. That's really all it boils down to. They are flat out incapable of losing.

    Mhaldor is capable of losing (as much as one can lose in Achaea). I can think of several times where we lost and that's just starting from when I played (which is rather recent compared to the oldies >.>). What you are describing isn't something specifically Mhaldorian. It's just something that stands out because of the way our roleplay (designated villains) has molded our play style where we just become better at picking ourselves up after conflicts.

    I agree with the other parts of your post, although I'm not sure about the warning that Achaea being cyclic in its staticity is going to players off the game until it just fades. I think it's been happening for a long time now, it's just that there are really good changes that are being introduced which help keep players addicted.

    As for exterminations, I've read other threads like this before. The only things that are new are the people who are complaining. I've read other Mhaldorians agree with forestals about how it can be improved, but from what I remember, Sarapis just said it's fine as it is. Someone can correct me if I am wrong.

    Bleh, work ate my gaming life.
    내가 제일 잘 나가!!!111!!1


  • AthelasAthelas Cape Town South AfricaMember Posts: 324 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent

    Can we please close this thread, it is obvious that people have zero interest in actually sticking to the topic I initially created.

    PraxidesAlcinaeSherazadSuladan
  • MizikMizik Member Posts: 2,101 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Agreed with whatever because Sentinel.

    image
    Jhui
  • HasarHasar Member Posts: 795 @ - Epic Achaean
    Mizik said:
    Agreed with whatever because Sentinel.

    But dude..you didn't even truelock Otha.

    (Or whoever it was, I remember there being a log and a really long argument)


  • LiscosLiscos Member Posts: 8

    the issue with both achaea conflict and in relationextermination is that it's designed to be used until the other dude is griefed out of willpower to do anything about it

    Jacen
  • SilasSilas Member Posts: 2,549 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    It's pretty ignorant to say there's nothing Mhaldor could be made to care about. Mhaldorian RP is characterised by a slavish devotion to Sartan. If you give Eleusis X to attack, all it takes is for Sartan to threaten death and dismemberment to those who fail him in defending X, and bam, Mhaldor are obliged to care.

    The use of Suffering/Oppressiom as a tool to not give a shit about the targets every other city has to deal with in the current barely-existent war system is very lazy, and something that should be discouraged on the whole.

    I don't think Eleusians should be able to disperse the fog at will, though, since the red fog is a manifestation of Sartan's will, which should be much more durable than a tree. There absolutely needs to be a target offered to Eleusis, though, because enforced defensive/reactionary stances are terrible. Everybody should have the opportunity to match the other side in terms of aggression, or the conflict will always be unbalanced since the aggressors always choose the time and location of their attack.


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