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Having IC reactions to IC events

DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
Something has left me very jaded about Achaean RP - particularly the growing trend in a number of cities where IC events are met with flagrantly OOC reactions. The most obvious and recent example of this is some of Eleusis' initial reaction to the Reckoning and their subsequent alignment shift. I've noticed this throughout nearly every city I've ever played in over the past 4 years, and it's gotten particularly bad lately.

There are definitive creeds and morals that characters of a given faction (particularly heavily-invested/people in Orders) are expected to espouse. For instance, it would be ridiculous for a Mhaldorian character to defend a traitorous slave in public, since they'd get executed largely on the spot. Similarly, an Eleusian would not defend an exterminator in public discourse with their peers. Much the same way that a Targossian will not defend a heathen, nor would an Ashtani occultist defend a rogue occultist.

However, I have observed on multiple occasions where a person's IC personality is apparently sufficient warrant for some people to completely and utterly disregard how they are supposed to act as a character. I mean to not say this with an air of haughtiness - suggesting how other people should play their characters and such - but regardless of how "nice" a person is on an IC/OOC level does not give people sufficient cause to defend them against the core tenets that govern their faction. If a nice person turns out to be a ferocious exterminator, you don't defend them. If a valuable slave turns out to be a traitor and leaves to go out and serve his cause elsewhere, nobody is going to realistically sit there ICly and think "it's ok they left because they were a nice person.".

What's more irritating is people using their IC authority to circumvent decisions made by other people which were done entirely in line with factional RP. While I do not base this off any of my recent experiences (I promise), it is a huge issue that people need to be continually vigilant for, as it is essentially ruining the game.

What drives people to do this? Is it even a real issue? I'd love to hear your thoughts/experiences on this, so that perhaps we may all work around having this sort of thing influence our own characters in future interactions. 

BluefAegothSunaura
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Comments

  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean
    Daeir said:

    What drives people to do this? Is it even a real issue? I'd love to hear your thoughts/experiences on this, so that perhaps we may all work around having this sort of thing influence our own characters in future interactions. 

    Winning is more important than proper RP. Eleusis in the Reckoning. Targossas with their Hashan raids. Mhaldor with pretty much everything they do (because they have one of the highest presences of forum public-relations working to maintain a false image that they are the best role-players in Achaea). Ashtan doesn't RP so they're pretty much exempt. Cyrene is 95% automated hunting scripts that use markov chaining or out-of-band signaling to avoid detection if talked to IG. Not sure what Hashan does.

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    PraxidesAegoth
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    I was referring to more the general gripe over supporting Maklak (who was killing Nature quite flagrantly) at the start, not really anything to do with that!

  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean

    We had perfect IC reasoning to switch sides in the Reckoning, . . . <-- Sure ya did.

    handed to us from above, yes, . . . <-- Oh... because it came from "above".

    but we didn't decide anything with OOC reasoning. <-- Because the decision was already made for Eleusis.

    . . . but Eleusis as a whole made a completely IC decision, based on IC knowledge. <-- but... Didn't you just say... wait. What did you just say? Things keep changing - words twisting - statements contradicting themselves. This kind of stuff sounds exactly like the "we're so perfect" wordsmithing that comes out of the Targ crowd and spews onto public news and sometimes forums - and is the exact thing I think Daeir was trying to talk about in this thread.

    My opinion isn't nonsense - I think many would agree with me that larger group/faction based decisions are sometimes based on purely OOC things in order to win, and the RP aspects are completely left out.

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    AlrenaAegoth
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,003 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Lets not derail this thread's original purpose. Most of Eleusis has put the Reckoning behind us, and for good reason. Best to keep moving forward.

    "You have had an extraordinary adventure, my dear. Extraordinary! One that few people could ever imagine. Treasure it. Keep it safe and secure, tucked away in some special place in your heart. 

    But... don't spend the rest of your days chasing a ghost."
    ShirszaeStrataTrilliana
  • FlorentinoFlorentino Member Posts: 516
    edited July 2014
    If you're going to claim that something is essentially ruining the game, you really need to provide more tangible examples for us to grapple with - I'm having a difficult time envisioning how this plays out in practice, though I'm willing to buy in the abstract that something like this is a problem.

    JhaeliBluef
  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean
    If you're going to claim that something is essentially ruining the game, you really need to provide more tangible examples for us to grapple with - I'm having a difficult time envisioning how this plays out in practice, though I'm willing to buy in the abstract that something like this is a problem.

    No! Don't bring up tangible examples! Then you're just a troll who doesn't know anything and you must be banned!

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  • TohranTohran Everywhere you don't want to be. I'm the anti-Visa!Member Posts: 331 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited July 2014
    Alrena said:

    What the hell? If we wanted to just win, we'd have stuck with Maklak and side with Ashtan. We had perfect IC reasoning to switch sides in the Reckoning, handed to us from above, yes, but we didn't decide anything with OOC reasoning. I'm not saying everyone didn't do questionable things (One person fought alongside city enemies, with the reasoning that no matter what you do during the Reckoning, there'd be no consequences), but Eleusis as a whole made a completely IC decision, based on IC knowledge.

    Sorry for the derail, but I am getting tired of hearing nonsense like that.

    I find myself disagreeing with you yet again, Alrena. Eleusis shouldn't have sided with either team in the Reckoning. Tohran (and Eleusis itself) sided Maklak at first, because of the two, he was the one who hadn't committed any crimes against Nature. Which was why he was infuriated with you deciding to go against the choices made by the council and village to side Maklak and called you an oathbreaker. Oakstone still needs to enemy Yudhi and Maklak as it stands anyway. Though the organisation is basically a joke now since the massive overnerf of forest defenses and Alchemy being a thing now, I doubt anything will come of it, no matter how long Tohran pushes for it ICly.

    When Eleusis changed sides, Tohran opted to no longer be involved because now both choices were harming Nature. The wizard's frost and the pyromaniac dragon, who had just set fire to the EI, were both trouble from his point of view. I was very disappointed in the changing of sides in Eleusis, when we should have just stayed out of the fight. Too many people wanted to harvest through the event though, and that seemed to be more important than the roleplay established by each of the characters in the oaths they swore.

    The Reckoning event showed me just how poor RP is in Eleusis. People are either lolpvp'ers or treehugging non-coms for the most part. The majority couldn't care less about the RP involved with the situations. I have an alt in Ashtan and in Mhaldor, when I go back to Tohran, I see just how bad RP is in Eleusis right now.

    Things were much better with Demeter, Artemis, and Melantha, heck, even Lupus.



    MelodieShirszaeAlrenaTeshaEllodinAegothExelethrilTukioHellenEilona
  • SiduriSiduri Member Posts: 1,566 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    @Daeir: I know you are trying to keep away from what happened surrounding @Cathy

    But I want to make it clear that my reaction was completely IC, and justified by my personal stance on the matter of public representation, by the fact that I have very clearly answered your question IC prior to the event, and by the fact that being an aide to Security absolutely does not entitle you with the right to go hound ex-citizens and question them, then use this same power which was entrusted to you to enemy them without the express permission of your superiors: IE, the Conclave, the Lumarchs, the Dawnlord or the Bloodsworn.

    For all that you know, one of us could very much have had an unspoken agreement with @Cathy (or anyone else, really) that does not concern you as a citizen, and your actions might have 1) broken a deal, 2) ruined our current PR campaign by acting brashly in public, and 3) gotten you in much, much more trouble than the mere rescinding of Cathy's enemy status.

    I'm furious about how this went, and mostly because I -hate- having to stand in the way of a citizen that otherwise only inspires respect among his peers and myself.


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  • TeshaTesha Member Posts: 2,911 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    If you're talking about the Cathy thing (which most of your post seems to indicate that you are), then:

    Tesha's big on justice, and Cathy being enemied didn't fit that. She was told exactly what was said and decided Daeir baited Cathy into being disrespectful, then enemied her for it. She decided it didn't reflect well on Targossas for that to happen, and wanted it undone. It wasn't about shedding ic/ooc values to defend someone who's "nice", an ooc friend, or anything remotely like that. It was roleplay in answer of roleplay.

    If you're actually talking about Eleusis switching during the Reckoning (while wording your post to make it sound like you're talking about unenemying Cathy):

    Everything made complete IC sense. Tesha was in constant contact with Rangor and Alrena, and understood a lot of what was going on. As a result of that, I know what they did made sense and it wasn't just that they wanted to "win" or something silly like that, it had perfect ingame logic. Just because they didn't broadcast every single word that was exchanged and every thought that went into the decision making, it doesn't mean they didn't have reasoning. Suggesting otherwise is actually rather insulting, especially when you don't have firsthand knowledge of what was happening. 

     i'm a rebel

    ShirszaeTrillianaAlrena
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2014

    I wasn't actually talking about the Cathy thing, but since it's been brought up, I may as well talk about it.

    The bulk of the outcry against her enemying was not really founded on anything solid from what I could discern ICly. When people started insisting that I had provoked her to elicit that response out of her, it essentially fell directly into the ground of flagrantly defending someone who had abandoned their oaths, simply because she was well liked - from my perspective. The vast majority of the city present for that affair from what I could tell, either supported the enemy status or simply did not care enough about it to comment any further beyond what was already said, thus causing huge confusion on my end as to why she was being defended at all. Of course, I decided at the time to pin this on OOC sentiment with legitimate character cause thinking that there really was no reason to indulge oathbreakers in any sort of amnesty, regardless of their circumstances. I raised this confusion with Aurora ICly, and the ensuing discussion we had essentially cleared all of my issues with what occurred.

    At the time of writing the original post, I was under the impression that perhaps the outlash from certain people was not founded in character traits and instead on OOC stuff, which I was obviously quite wrong to assume. So, I apologize for that. I also do not want people to think I know anything about what went on internally regarding Eleusis and their faction choices in the Reckoning - I only included that very brief example in the OP after hearing that a lot of the pro-Maklek sentiment in Eleusis initially was founded on aspects that made very little sense as far as Nature RP goes. A second hand comment, and perhaps not the best thing to use to posit a thread example on! (if the 15 minute edit thing wasn't a thing I would have edited that example to reflect what I was trying to grasp at more accurately)

    I do think however, that the issue of OOC attitude bleed into major IC decision making is a prominent issue, and I think Blujixapug and Sena have outlined some pretty solid reasons as to why this happens. The issue I have now is - how do we work with/past this to ensure that factional RP goals are being met at a player-to-player level?

  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,661 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Alrena said:

    but Eleusis as a whole made a completely IC decision, based on IC knowledge.


    Poor Logistics, Nellaundra, Tohran... hell, the other 60% of Eleusis that wasn't a part of this "Eleusis as a whole" deal. This "We must win, we must make gud IC cover-ups so we can win and make broad claims to our immaculate RP integrety!" stuff is getting out of hand.

    AlrenaMelodieShirszaeHellenTohranEilona
  • AlrenaAlrena Member Posts: 647 @ - Epic Achaean
    Aegoth said:
    Alrena said:

    but Eleusis as a whole made a completely IC decision, based on IC knowledge.


    Poor Logistics, Nellaundra, Tohran... hell, the other 60% of Eleusis that wasn't a part of this "Eleusis as a whole" deal. This "We must win, we must make gud IC cover-ups so we can win and make broad claims to our immaculate RP integrety!" stuff is getting out of hand.

    As usual, you have no idea what you're talking about.

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    ExelethrilShirszaeHellenTohranEilona
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,314 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    Alrena said:
    Aegoth said:
    Alrena said:

    but Eleusis as a whole made a completely IC decision, based on IC knowledge.


    Poor Logistics, Nellaundra, Tohran... hell, the other 60% of Eleusis that wasn't a part of this "Eleusis as a whole" deal. This "We must win, we must make gud IC cover-ups so we can win and make broad claims to our immaculate RP integrety!" stuff is getting out of hand.

    As usual, you have no idea what you're talking about.

    Elaborate with us all, unless being snarky and pretending to know better is your only setting. This belief that you must not share knowledge seems unfounded, as no one would legitimately be hurt, and no one's experience would be ruined if the situation is explained fully and in its truth by my estimate. 

    Aegoth raises a point, minus the 60%. There were very high ranking Eleusians and their followers who publically claimed the they were not part of this decision and they even made a public news post. I am sure there is more to the story.

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    PraxidesTohran
  • AlrenaAlrena Member Posts: 647 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited July 2014
    Mishgul said:

    Alrena said:
    Aegoth said:
    Alrena said:

    but Eleusis as a whole made a completely IC decision, based on IC knowledge.


    Poor Logistics, Nellaundra, Tohran... hell, the other 60% of Eleusis that wasn't a part of this "Eleusis as a whole" deal. This "We must win, we must make gud IC cover-ups so we can win and make broad claims to our immaculate RP integrety!" stuff is getting out of hand.

    As usual, you have no idea what you're talking about.

    Elaborate with us all, unless being snarky and pretending to know better is your only setting. This belief that you must not share knowledge seems unfounded, as no one would legitimately be hurt, and no one's experience would be ruined if the situation is explained fully and in its truth by my estimate. 

    Aegoth raises a point, minus the 60%. There were very high ranking Eleusians and their followers who publically claimed the they were not part of this decision and they even made a public news post. I am sure there is more to the story.

    Last time I did you told me to put it all in one sentence! Make up your mind already!

    As an fyi, Logistics helped a few times in the Tundra after reversing his ban on the Sentinels. The vast majority of Eleusis helped in the Outpost or Tundra, which was very nice to see. It was a very small part who decided not to participate at all, and that was due to their IC reasoning that helping an enemy was not something we should do. The vast majority decided that we -should- help Yudhi, as he was the lesser of two evils (forest fire not as bad as eternal winter). 

    If we really just wanted to win, don't you think we'd have just stayed with Maklak which had Ashtan and Mhaldor, versus just Targ? Maklak would've won easily, no effort. So I'm sorry if I get annoyed by someone who keeps belittling people's rp and efforts for... I don't even know why. Some superiority complex? Why did I have to explain that, even? Sure, you can't read minds, but you expect me to inform you while others make completely uninformed posts filled with their own biased opinions? Come on now.

    edit: I'm also amused that you accuse me of exactly what Aegoth's post was. I guess that's typicial forum rp for you. This is my only post on this, biased people will remain biased, and I'm not going to keep posting on this. As Melodie said, I'm going to leave this behind me.

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    ExelethrilMelodieShirszaeHellenTohran
  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,314 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2014
    Fair enough RE: Logistics.

    Personal attacks taken on the chin. Bias is human nature, I admit to it, you should too. Aegoth raised valid point under thinly veiled insult that should be addressed properly.

    So are you saying that you don't want to win? Though we do have to define winning in this instance also. As a leader in Mhaldor, I explicitly told people that they were under no obligation to serve anyone other than Lord Sartan. 

    Of course we took part for the sake of having fun. Perhaps Targossas would have still won if you sided with Maklak. I feel like you are making a fair few assumptions here

    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    Cahin
  • AlrenaAlrena Member Posts: 647 @ - Epic Achaean

    Mishgul said:
    Fair enough RE: Logistics.

    Personal attacks taken on the chin. Bias is human nature, I admit to it, you should too. Aegoth raised valid point under thinly veiled insult that should be addressed properly.

    So are you saying that you don't want to win? Though we do have to define winning in this instance also. As a leader in Mhaldor, I explicitly told people that they were under no obligation to serve anyone other than Lord Sartan. 

    Of course we took part for the sake of having fun. Perhaps Targossas would have still won if you sided with Maklak. I feel like you are making a fair few assumptions here

    When I start making assumptions on why Mhaldor does what it does, when I'm not even in the city and only hear from a few citizens (and then say it's 60% or some other ridiculous number), then please feel free to slap me on the wrist about that. 

    Obviously people want to win. For Eleusis, our victory condition was preserving Nature, and in particular Istar jungle. You could say that only worked partially, because there are still after effects from the frost. We did not want Yudhi to win for his sake, that was never our goal. We just needed Maklak to lose. I'm pretty sure this was said earlier, but perhaps dismissed as 'nonsense'. 

    I'm not saying Targossas would have lost for sure, but surely you can see that our chances of 'winning' would have been better by sticking with two strong combat cities, versus only one. 

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  • MishgulMishgul ROTHERHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMMember Posts: 5,314 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    I think the chances of 'winning' would have been determined by whoever was in charge of the event. The ending would probably have had elements of Deus Ex either way.



    -

    One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important

    As drawn by Shayde
    hic locus est ubi mors gaudet succurrere vitae
    AlcinaeTrillianaCahin
  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean

    Ashtan tried to sanction a raid on Eleusis last night. There was a decent sized group of higher-level folks who know how to fight vs. our group which was comprised of F-team. (because F is for Fendrel)

    The only IC responses were from one novice guy and some other little serpent dude who wasn't actually an Eleusis citizen but he came to chit-chat with us and ask us why we were trying to destroy things.

    The rest of them QQ'd or went to ships within 5 minutes. (Presumably so they could take a moral high-ground and say we were being obnoxious/excessive/w/e)

    Would be awesome to hear how that "IC reaction" to that was decided.

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  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,163 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    ITT: "Why won't people play this game the way I want them to play!!!11!" 

    ShunsuiTrillianaAerek
  • StrataStrata United States of DerpMember Posts: 1,753 @ - Epic Achaean
    Jovolo said:

    ITT: "Why won't people play this game the way I want them to play!!!11!" 

    It's not that. Genuinely interested to hear their reasoning. If I expected people to play the way I want them to, I'd be a priest in so I can use force for everything. :)

    Can you please be their spokesperson, @Jovolo? You're good at that.

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  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,163 @@ - Legendary Achaean

    No

  • ClaronClaron Member Posts: 6

    Well, Ashtan was being kind of excessive during that raid, from what I witnessed, including pulling Darak, a 19 year old who's something like 20% of *my* might, not to mention the attacking group, into the village to kill him in an attempt to get a sanction.  And pursuing a whole bunch of other people outside the bounds of the village and trying to suck them back in.  I mean, I'd have fought if I had the word to fight, but as far as I could tell, we were definitely not even capable of putting up a decent fight until an hour or two into the attempted raid.... at which point we were are kind of done with it.

    TohranAiniaTrayu
  • ClaronClaron Member Posts: 6

    ICly, the leader of a force might well decide that some batle or other is helpless and order a "retreat."

    ShirszaeTohranAinia
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